Skate Fit Advice

[AspenonIce]

I'm still having skate fit issues. I've had 2 pairs of Jackson Debut Fusions (1st a 5.5 W, 2nd and current 6 W) and they still give me the same squeezing the sides of my feet pain in my arches. I've decided I probably need semi custom extra wide skates, however I have another problem. (The 6s were sent back to the factory recently to be stretched but they still cause the same pain. I'm in less pain if I skip the front half of my boot and only lace from my ankle up, but it still hurts quite a bit.)

My group lesson coach has said (even before the corona shutdown) that she can see that I'm pitched forward towards the front of my boot/blade, but that nothing in my posture indicates that I'm misplacing my weight to cause it. So it probably has to do with the boot and I'm not sure what that means so I can get a boot that doesn't do this. I don't remember this being a problem in the 5.5s (but it's been a year-ish since I've skated in them so I could be wrong), but my big toe was being bruised by the front of the skate along with the too narrow pain.

[AspenonIce]

Had to add this seperately for some reason.

Does this mean it's just that the length is too long for my foot? Or should I get the blade mounted further back? While the 5.5s were the exact same length of the blade, the 6s are mounted with the blade all the way to the front with about 1/4 of an inch left over on the heel. I'm really not sure how much of a difference this makes.
Any advice?

[Query]

Apparently you or an imperfect fitter have already guessed wrong twice on boot fit, twice.

I don't know if he is open and taking new customers (call ahead), but your indicated location is within about 1.5 hours of Mike Cunningham, (https://skatersparadise.com), one of the world's best known skate fitters. He could help you not make a mistake again. If he isn't taking new customers, talk to people at Jackson to see who they would suggest. I suggest you don't go to another second tier fitter, unless you want to keep wasting money and creating pain or possibly injury.

Have you tried:
1. Removing the insoles to make extra space inside the boot? You could also try not wearing socks. These probably won't solve the whole fit problem, but if it makes enough space not to pinch, there is at least a possibility of fixing things by making or modifying an insole to fit you.
2. Placing tape on the underside of the insole, or of a thin insole cut to the same traced perimeter shape, underneath the arch? It is somewhat possible the arches of your feet are collapsing too much, which splays out the foot to the sides, so that raising the arch would help. As a quick easily reversed test, you could just fold up part of a paper towel and put it underneath the arch, to see whether this would help.
3. Did Jackson's stretch help for a little while? You could buy a ball & ring pliers (also called hoke and ball pliers, or heavy duty bunion stretcher), so you can repeadtedly restretch the boot yourself, with the help of a hair drier? But, if even the factory couldn't do a good enough job, even for a little while, you are unlikely to do any better, or even as well.

[AspenonIce]

Skater's Paradise was my original plan when I left school back in 2018, but when I called, they weren't taking new skaters. I'll definitely call again and see if that's still true. (Although, I feel a little guilty going to someone else after this one has tried so hard to help me as best he can)
I haven't asked Jackson about a fitter suggestion, but the fitter/owner that is working with me at my home rink was talking to Jackson which is how my skates for sent back. This all kicked off when I sent them message on FB expressing my frustrations and they contacted him themselves.

1. I have skated without the insoles before and I hated the way it felt/it didn't really relieve the pain, just delayed the onset a bit. But I'll definitely try again now that something has been done to them. (I had actually bought cheap insoles from Target to try this, but talked myself out of it since the pain hasn't changed at all.)
2. This might work along with not lacing the front. I'll give it a try. I also have the riedell footbed system somewhere...
3. It doesn't seem to have made a difference. It's the exact same pain I've had all 3 years I've been skating. I can go a while longer without pain with the modified lacing, but it does start up eventually.

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[Loops]

Skater's Paradise was my original plan when I left school back in 2018, but when I called, they weren't taking new skaters. I'll definitely call again and see if that's still true. (Although, I feel a little guilty going to someone else after this one has tried so hard to help me as best he can)

Mike Cunningham is retired. I don't know if his shop is still in existence, under new ownership, but I am somehow doubtful.  If you're coming to the DC area, you might want to check around Fairfax ice rink (VA) and see who they recommend.

If your current guy can't figure it out, you don't need to feel guilty about going elsewhere.  You can still go to him for other things, and maybe you'll learn something that will help him.  There's as much art to skate fitting as science.  And Mike, as good as he was, still wasn't perfect.

One thing that helped me, was to take tracings of my feet, then I compared those to the measurements on Kinzies Closet.  I discovered that have one foot that is wider than the other (thanks to a bunion).  Not your problem, but may be an enlightening exercise nonetheless.

For my old skates, I used some of the lacing techniques I learned about on AgnesNitts blog  The ice Doesn't care".  They helped a lot (but weren't magic).

What helped most was going to customs with Jackson.  I did this two years ago with Mike, who was also working directly with the people at Jackson.  They are still not perfect, but far and away the best fitting skates I've ever had.  When they die, and I have to get new ones, I'll make relatively minor tweaks. Worth every penny of the price tag. Riedells also do really good customs, as I understand it.

Be persistent.  You'll get it sorted out, eventually.  Hopefully sooner rather than later.

[AgnesNitt]

Hello AspenonIce. If I understand this correctly, your boots are too tight on the side.  I see you have tried skating without your insoles.
There is a solution, but you will never be able to sell the skates. Are you willing to try that? You should get a coach or skate tech to work with you  on this. It's an old ice show skater trick.

http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2013/08/surgical-intervention-on-figure-skating.html

An experienced show skater did this to my skates and I skated pain free for years in them. Then they got old and I had two pair of custom Harlick's built which were fine after I did some superfitting.

You said you pitch forward? What blades are you using? If that pitching happens with every pair of boots it sounds more like a blade issue.

[AgnesNitt]

Also, the big toe pain may be caused because your heels aren't deep enough in the counter (the back of the boot). There's a simple lacing trick for that Here:
http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2015/12/techniques-for-lacing-your-skates.html

In the second image down, the one with the blue background, you'll see a lacing marked "heel slipping" on the right. That may help. You may not feel your heel 'slipping' but once you start lacing your skate that way, it will push your foot back further in your boot. If it works, you should find the pressure on your toes decreased. If it doesn't work, try something else.

After years of talking to show skaters in my friend group, and googling things, I developed a collection of tricks I call Superfitting your skates. Unless the skates are completely the wrong size you can tweak them quite a bit.
http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2014/08/super-fitting-your-boot.html

[AspenonIce]

Mike Cunningham is retired. I don't know if his shop is still in existence, under new ownership, but I am somehow doubtful.  If you're coming to the DC area, you might want to check around Fairfax ice rink (VA) and see who they recommend.

If your current guy can't figure it out, you don't need to feel guilty about going elsewhere.  You can still go to him for other things, and maybe you'll learn something that will help him.  There's as much art to skate fitting as science.  And Mike, as good as he was, still wasn't perfect.

One thing that helped me, was to take tracings of my feet, then I compared those to the measurements on Kinzies Closet.  I discovered that have one foot that is wider than the other (thanks to a bunion).  Not your problem, but may be an enlightening exercise nonetheless.

For my old skates, I used some of the lacing techniques I learned about on AgnesNitts blog  The ice Doesn't care".  They helped a lot (but weren't magic).

What helped most was going to customs with Jackson.  I did this two years ago with Mike, who was also working directly with the people at Jackson.  They are still not perfect, but far and away the best fitting skates I've ever had.  When they die, and I have to get new ones, I'll make relatively minor tweaks. Worth every penny of the price tag. Riedells also do really good customs, as I understand it.

Be persistent.  You'll get it sorted out, eventually.  Hopefully sooner rather than later.

I just looked around online and it looks like the shop officially closed down in March this year.

I actually was fitted at Fairfax first for the 5.5s. At that time I did not know it was the sister rink to my home rink and was just looking for another fitter close enough to get to. The owner of both is the one helping me and he actually discounted the second pair as he felt bad I had been fitted incorrectly.

When my boots were sent to Jackson we actually sent foot tracings along with them. My feet are approximately the same width (which is about the same as the length of my feet). That didn't seem to help as the boots feel the same as before and I'm not sure what they tired to do to fix the issue.
Looking at the size charts on Kinzie's Closet, to get the appropriate width for my foot, I would need a women's 8D boot, which is obviously way too long.
The only other fitter I've ever gone to is 500 miles away. They recognized my wide feet right away, but I wasn't able to buy skates from them before I left the area.
I'm going to try the lacing and other tricks for now as I try to figure out if I need to drive back to Western NY to get a proper fitting.

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[Loops]

I just looked around online and it looks like the shop officially closed down in March this year.

I actually was fitted at Fairfax first for the 5.5s. At that time I did not know it was the sister rink to my home rink and was just looking for another fitter close enough to get to. The owner of both is the one helping me and he actually discounted the second pair as he felt bad I had been fitted incorrectly.

When my boots were sent to Jackson we actually sent foot tracings along with them. My feet are approximately the same width (which is about the same as the length of my feet). That didn't seem to help as the boots feel the same as before and I'm not sure what they tired to do to fix the issue.
Looking at the size charts on Kinzie's Closet, to get the appropriate width for my foot, I would need a women's 8D boot, which is obviously way too long.
The only other fitter I've ever gone to is 500 miles away. They recognized my wide feet right away, but I wasn't able to buy skates from them before I left the area.
I'm going to try the lacing and other tricks for now as I try to figure out if I need to drive back to Western NY to get a proper fitting.

Oh wow.  When I was a kid, back in the 80's, Audrey Weisinger's students at least all went to Mike. Shoot, we all went to Mike, so that might not be saying that much. But that might have also been before Fairfax had an in-house tech. Given the level of skaters that have come out of that club, I would have thought the fitter there was better equipped.  That's where  had been thinking of going now that Mike's done, if I have to come back to the US to get new skates (now that I have specs, I'm hoping I can just do it from here).

How wide can Jackson go?  If you know your length, and the circumference of your feet, can't they do at least a semi-custom pair for you? I would think that the foot tracings would have been very useful- that's how they determined the length and width of mine.  They started with the base length (8.5 in both cases), then a base width (B on one, C on the other) then there are comments about removing 1/8" on this side and 1/16th on that side.  They can do some pretty fine tuning.  But it might be just in the full customs.

I'm surprised the guy at Fairfax (disappointed, actually) couldn't help you out.  I'm wondering now if all their highly competitive skaters didn't just go to  Mike.  Who's the go-to guy in the area now?

In the meantime, try some of AgneNitt's tricks.  She has some really good advice on her blog. I came very close to slicing my old boots like she did in the link she posted above. 

[AgnesNitt]

I have duckfeet. Wide forefoot, narrow heel.
Mike recommended I go with Harlick full customs X-line. At the time he said Jackson's didn't do full customs for anything less than premiers and they were too stiff for me. (Jacksons has changed the line since then, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. If you're doing doubles they'd probably do fine.

I did have to have one boot of the harlick's pair rebuilt, but that's just part of the game of buying full customs. If you're lucky they will fit perfectly, but skate building is not a science of precision, it's an art of technique. If I ever have to have a new pair of boots, I'll go in expecting a small refit here and there.

I'll never be as close to a skate tech as I was to him and Joan. He said that another woman adult skater and I (out of the hundreds if not thousands of skaters he'd worked with) were the only two who were interested in fiddling with their equipment at a technical level. I was touched by that and owe a lot of my knowledge to him.

[MCsAngel2]

Okay, something I have direct experience with.

OP, it sounds like your feet weren't measured for width as well as length when you got both pairs. I'm a little baffled because your tech sounds at least somewhat competent. Not all wides are the same width. It's a very common error to keep sizing up boots to get a width that fit correctly. This is bad because you wind up with a boot that's too long for your foot. This is going to cause problems on a lot of skills. Figure skating boots have to fit your feet very precisely for length AND width.

Jacksons are fine. They are probably best suited to your duck feet.

You need semi custom boots. You are trying to get by on stock (regular) wide boots. Stock boots come in regular (A/B) and wide (C/D). I really hate that they went back to that ambigious sizing, they used come stock sized in A (narrow), B (regular), and C/D (wide). A stock C/D wide isn't going to cut it for you. You need to shell out more for boots that they can make some changes to (semi custom).

I am 48 and came back to skating last year, skated as a teenager. I have very flat feet. I was measured by an experienced tech (who's also my region's Jackson rep) for width and length. I am a size 6 EE in Jackson. (Jackson has widths in AAA, AA, A, B, C, D, E, EE, and EEE, but only those middle ones are mass produced enough to be sold at regular retail prices). I had to pay for a boot to be constructed in an extra wide. I also had to pay for a custom wide tongue.

Another thing I did *not* pay to get but would next time around, is a lower heel. Jackson has about the highest heel out there. Compare it to a Riedell, which I previously skated on. A lower heel will help you not pitch forward so much. And **IMPORTANT FOR YOU** I also have also had foot pain the entire time, some times worse than others. After talking to a Jackson rep for a couple of hours, I was told that the last that they make the boots on now (the elite last) may just be too narrow and uncomfortable for me. If I opt to get new boots, I can request they be made on the older last which was a bit wider.

Jackson also has split width sizing - normally the heel is one width narrower than the ball. If your heel is narrower than that, you can pay extra to make it the correct width.

As far as I know, Jackson is the only one that offers so many options that you can order, that would be added as a la carte pricing. I have the low cut Debut Fusions. The retail when I got them a year ago was $320, my price after the custom add ons was $450. Just for the boot.

But the first thing you need is to find someone that can measure your feet properly, for width, and the heels too.

ETA: The sizing chart on Kinzie's closet only goes up to the D width, but they do have 3 more widths after that. Your tech should have the info from Jackson.

[nicklaszlo]

But the first thing you need is to find someone that can measure your feet properly, for width, and the heels too.

This is always good advice.

Jacksons are fine. They are probably best suited to your duck feet.

This seems very confused.  That's not Aspenonice's problem. 

I don't agree with all the pro-Jackson advice here.  I had two pairs of Jacksons.  Neither fit my feet (heel way too wide, forefoot fit correctly) and both wore out extremely fast. 

[nicklaszlo]

Questions:

- Does the pain get worse when you stand still in your skates?

- Does the pain go away immediately when you take the skates off?

[AspenonIce]

I have messaged Jackson again on FB to see if they will recommend me a fitter somewhere on the east coast. If I'm going semi custom, I agree that I need someone with more skill to have a chance at getting a better fit.

For now, I am experimenting with new lacing. I haven't gotten on ice with them tied this way yet, but I wore them around the house with thick socks and no sole and they feel a lot better. I'll just have to find a thiner replacement sole that works with the lacing.
Edit: the tongue pops out of the boot in the sections without crisscrossed laces.



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[AspenonIce]

Questions:

- Does the pain get worse when you stand still in your skates?

- Does the pain go away immediately when you take the skates off?

The pain feel worse while standing still, but I'm not sure if it is worse or if it's just more distracting because I'm not focused on anything else. I generally hate standing still because it hurts so much, but if I'm moving I'm at least focuses on anything but my feet.

The pain takes a while to wear off after I take my skates off. Usually 5 mins or less, less time if I put on regular shoes and walk around a bit. If it's really bad I have to get off the ice to take them off and stretch my feet to stop the cramping (this is usually only if I tie them too tight).

Edit: rephrased my answer to the first question.

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[MCsAngel2]

I don't agree with all the pro-Jackson advice here.  I had two pairs of Jacksons.  Neither fit my feet (heel way too wide, forefoot fit correctly) and both wore out extremely fast.

But Jackson also has the ability to make the heel size more than one width narrower than the forefoot, you just have to pay extra for it. I have not heard of this option being available with any other boot maker.

This is also why it's so important to have your heels measured along with the rest of the foot, so you know what your correct heel width is.

[MCsAngel2]

The pain feel worse while standing still, but I'm not sure if it is worse or if it's just more distracting because I'm not focused on anything else. I generally hate standing still because it hurts so much, but if I'm moving I'm at least focuses on anything but my feet.

The pain takes a while to wear off after I take my skates off. Usually 5 mins or less, less time if I put on regular shoes and walk around a bit. If it's really bad I have to get off the ice to take them off and stretch my feet to stop the cramping (this is usually only if I tie them too tight).

Edit: rephrased my answer to the first question.

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The tongue pops out if not laced in?? What does the top of the boot look like when it's laced up - can you see your leg in between the tongue and the sides of the boot?

That, and the fact that you describe the pain as cramping (in the arch?) are huge indicators that your skates are too narrow for your feet.

By the way, you should be wearing the absolute thinnest socks, or tights you can, or nothing at all. Thick socks are a no no.

ETA: Are you actually wearing the skates in the pictures above?

[MCsAngel2]

One more thing: If you go get sized and the ladies' sizes don't come wide enough for your proper size, you can order a men's boot, made in white. Pretty sure that's going to be a full custom order though, somewhere around $1000. Men's boots are wider than ladies'. Just try to find an experienced fitter, any that you visit, make sure to ask if they have experience in measuring adult's wide feet, that will likely have to be semi custom special ordered.

[AspenonIce]

The tongue pops out if not laced in?? What does the top of the boot look like when it's laced up - can you see your leg in between the tongue and the sides of the boot?

That, and the fact that you describe the pain as cramping (in the arch?) are huge indicators that your skates are too narrow for your feet.

By the way, you should be wearing the absolute thinnest socks, or tights you can, or nothing at all. Thick socks are a no no.

ETA: Are you actually wearing the skates in the pictures above?

I put on the thick socks to help make any pain more obvious. I have a hard time feeling painful spots in fittings, possibly because I only have the boots on for a short period, so the thicker socks helps to highlight where things aren't fitting. Otherwise, I can only tell after having skated in them.

Yes I have the skates on in the pictures.

The tongue gaping is no longer there with skating socks on instead of the thick ones.

The tongue fits around my ankles and tuck into the boots.

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[AgnesNitt]

If the tongues pop out then you need wider than normal boot tongues. You can custom order them  from Harlicks.  I tried to do it with Jacksons but not even Mike could solve that conundrom with Jacksons doing it when I tried to get new skates from them.

And I'm not sure why you're wearing thick socks. That's only making the problem worse. 

[LunarSkater]

But Jackson also has the ability to make the heel size more than one width narrower than the forefoot, you just have to pay extra for it. I have not heard of this option being available with any other boot maker.

This is also why it's so important to have your heels measured along with the rest of the foot, so you know what your correct heel width is.

Riedell does offer this for their semi-custom and custom boots. I have semi-customs with them specifically because of my own duck feet. I'm in C/AAA.

[tstop4me]

I have messaged Jackson again on FB to see if they will recommend me a fitter somewhere on the east coast. If I'm going semi custom, I agree that I need someone with more skill to have a chance at getting a better fit.

I've found from personal experience that a fitter recommended by Jackson is not necessarily competent.  You said somewhere on the East Coast.  If you're willing to come to New Jersey, PM me, and I'll refer you to a first-rate fitter (multiple lines, but he's partial to Jackson for skaters with the appropriate feet).

[AspenonIce]

I should have explained about the thick socks earlier! Sorry about that. I only wear trouser/skating socks while skating.

I put on the thick socks to help make any painful spots more obvious. I have a hard time feeling them during fittings, which is possibly because I have the boots on for such a short time and only move around a little in them, so the thicker socks helps to highlight where things aren't fitting. Otherwise, I can only tell after having skated in them, which is part of why I'm in this predicament as I couldn't tell what was going to be a problem while doing the fitting so the fitter didn't have enough feedback to know that I needed something else before I paid for the new boots. I've gotten better a trying to identify problem areas, but it's a work in progress and the thick socks are helping me figure out possible modifications to try once I am on the ice again.

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[Query]

You must be truly dedicated to skate with pain for so long!

Most custom skate manufacturers provide a money back guarantee on fit, if you call soon enough. I don't know if Jackson currently does, or whether either of your prior two attempts were customs - but it is worth talking to them to see if they are willing to do anything. You could also talk to your current fitter to see whether he is willing to make good in any way. Those might be your first options, before modifying your boots, because modification might invalidate any such warranty. Given your prior problems, and the amount of money and pain you have put into this, it might be worthwhile asking each manufacturer whether they are willing to guarantee good fit, before ordering another pair. And in your place, I would go to the factory store, or to one of the travelling factory fitters the company sends.

For what it is worth, though this was years ago, Mike once told me that Harlick full customs were more customized than than Jackson full customs. He sold both brands, among others.

Incidentally, every custom skate maker has skaters who are most happy with them. No one skate maker seems to make everyone happy. I don't know why that is. E.g., some people on this board have been happy with Avanta (which inherited a lot of Klingbeil's bootmaking staff), who, if you go to the factory, can have their own staff podiatrist look at your feet. They often make casts of your feet. I don't know whether they merely take measurements from those casts, or they actually create new full custom lasts from that cast, but it at least sounds like a great way to go. (I also don't know whether they still have the custom last-making lathe Klingbeil sometimes used.) They are also willing to work from casts made by your local podiatrist.

I wonder if you could still call and/or email Mike and get suggestions on who to go to.

1. I have skated without the insoles before and I hated the way it felt/it didn't really relieve the pain, just delayed the onset a bit. But I'll definitely try again now that something has been done to them. (I had actually bought cheap insoles from Target to try this, but talked myself out of it since the pain hasn't changed at all.)

It sounds like you have already tried just about everything easy. It is quite possible that boot modification won't be enough.

But precisely what didn't work about taking out the insoles and skating sockless? Did it still pinch? If not, you maybe can reshape those cheap Target insoles, with tape, to get what you want, or cut new insoles out of foam, to fit the 3D shape of your feet.

If it still pinches, after the best Jackson can do, as well as removing or changing insoles and skating without socks, you could always try Agnes's destructive suggestion

  http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2013/08/surgical-intervention-on-figure-skating.html

though that would be scary to me, because it is non-reversible. At a guess, it would tremendously reduce the boot lifetime, because the cuts would continue to tear - but it seems to me that they already have a lifetime, for you, of near zero. Maybe you could put something over the slits that would hide the cuts. I'm not sure if anything could stop them from continuing to tear. Perhaps someone here who knows more about adhesives could suggest something.

Some Cabin John rink freestyle skaters told me they go to a skate tech who works at the Ashburn, VA rink. But they didn't know the tech's name. It might or might not be the same person who works at Fairfax - but bear in mind, you probably want the person in charge, not just someone who works at the shop. That's true at almost any shop.

I asked Mike once about a Chicago area skate tech, John Harmata, and he said he was top notch, and did the same types of things he did. But he is a long ways away

I think there is supposed to be a good skate tech near the University of Delaware, but am not sure, and didn't manage to find the name. Since that University has a High Performance Figure Skating Center and frequently publishes articles on figure skating performance and medical issues, someone there might know.

Based on your pictures, I'm not certain, but it is possible that just tracing your feet, and/or getting foam foot impressions, won't be enough, because it is possible you have somewhat higher volume lower legs and upper feet than most skate companies assume, which is part of the reason you need a wider tongue. For that you need a top notch fitter - and preferably the factory store, as mentioned. I have a little of this problem - I don't need extra wide tongues, but need to center mine carefully, and to use laces longer than the boot maker provided.

BTW, for medical problems, I saw Mike refer people to a Baltimore area Dr Paul Meissner and I think to a Delaware area DPM, Dr. Jonathon P. Contompasis, both of whom have helped a lot of skaters. I didn't go to either, but I've met about a dozen local skaters who were misfit by the same skate tech I was, who were happier after seeing Dr. Meissner, and a lot of the other skate shops refer people to him too.

I wish I could give you a magic solution to your problems.

[nicklaszlo]

The pain feel worse while standing still, but I'm not sure if it is worse or if it's just more distracting because I'm not focused on anything else. I generally hate standing still because it hurts so much, but if I'm moving I'm at least focuses on anything but my feet.

The pain takes a while to wear off after I take my skates off. Usually 5 mins or less, less time if I put on regular shoes and walk around a bit. If it's really bad I have to get off the ice to take them off and stretch my feet to stop the cramping (this is usually only if I tie them too tight).

My theory is that the pain in your feet is not caused by the boot at the location of the pain.  Instead, somewhere else the boot is blocking blood circulation in your foot.  When you move around, blood is forced around the block, so the pain decreases.  When you stand still the blood cannot circulate and it hurts more.  When you take the skates off, circulation resumes.  This should take less than five minutes.

Any skater will feel this pain if their skates are laced too tight. 

Most other kinds of problems will take more than five minutes to stop hurting after you remove your boots. 

Unfortunately my theory does not really tell you what to do to fix the problem.  You can try:

* Skating a lot more vigorously to push the blood around in your feet, if your skating ability allows you to do this with control.  We should all do this anyway.
* Lace the lower part of your boot somewhat loosely, knot the laces below the uppers, and lace the uppers normally.  I do this, but mostly because I like my uppers tied very tight.
* Have someone with the right tool stretch your boot.  I have not tried that.