Skate Fit Advice

[Query]

My theory is that the pain in your feet is not caused by the boot at the location of the pain...

Have someone with the right tool stretch your boot.  I have not tried that.

It is hard to imagine that any skate shop would have better tools than Jackson itself, which she already tried - unless you are right, and they stretched the wrong part of the boot.

If you are right, how would you suggest she determine what part of the boot to stretch?

I personally can feel where my boots are tightest - but if she can't (AspenonIce: can you feel where?), I can't think of an easy way.

AspenonIce: you also never answered about what you found uncomfortable about taking out the insoles and taking off the socks. Does it still pinch? If it doesn't, there is a good chance things can be fixed.

There is a leather shop in Laurel, MD

  https://www.mdoutbackleather.com

Because they make custom leather boots and saddles for horse jockeys, they just might have the tools, and the knowledge to diagnose the problem. But I hesitate to recommend them. My only experience with them is that I went to them a few years back to see if they could rebuild my old boots. The lady there said no - maybe because their service is more expensive than custom skates? Or because skates use thicker and stiffer materials than riding boots?

Anyway, they are almost as far away from her as Ashburn, or one of the top podiatrists, and might not be able to help. She could call to ask...

I still think going to Jackson could help. They have a foot shape scanner:

  https://jacksonultima.com/pages/scanner-technology

which might help. However, they don't list any intended visits after last April, so one would have to call to see if they are doing that, post pandemic.

[nicklaszlo]

It is hard to imagine that any skate shop would have better tools than Jackson itself, which she already tried -

Sorry, I missed that.

[AspenonIce]

I personally can feel where my boots are tightest - but if she can't (AspenonIce: can you feel where?), I can't think of an easy way.

AspenonIce: you also never answered about what you found uncomfortable about taking out the insoles and taking off the socks. Does it still pinch? If it doesn't, there is a good chance things can be fixed.

With the thick socks on I could feel the side of the boot squeezing the ball of my foot. The boot, at least with the standard foodbed in it, is too narrow for my feet.

I hate skating with the sole out as it hurts to stand on the metal plate on the heel. Also, the sole of the boot is just really hard so it's uncomfortable to stand on.
I think I also had less control of the skate when I tried before. It at least felt weird to the muscles in my feet and I couldn't do anything but skate forward without falling (and I already fall a ton).
I did get the cheap Target insoles and have put them in, I just need to test them out now. (I only skate 2 days a week to limit my exposure)

As far as not wearing socks at all, that's not preferred as I have really sweaty feet. Any shoe that I've worn around with no socks quickly becomes horribly smelly. I'm really anal about it now and always wear socks with shoes.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[AgnesNitt]

AspenonIce.

If sweaty feet are the issue, then what you can try is double knee highs. I've found that a pair of micro-fiber knee highs (2 on each foot) deal with that pretty well (YMMV) and still let you have thin socks on. If you try this out, make sure they're made of microfiber. You can find white ones  online if you root around a bit. If you have skating knee highs from mondor just try two on each foot no matter what color to see if it works. (I think the knee highs in stores are nylon, but those from HUE, L'eggs, Hanes, and  Mondor are all microfiber. I also look for those that are 'opaque' because they're slighty thicker)

Personal Rant: I can buy really good skating knee highs in pink, purple, Turquoise, nude - various shades of tan from dark to light-, but NO ONE Makes THEM IN WHITE! Dear God Mondor what's wrong with white so we can fold them over the top of the boots!! (Not that I'm fussy. I've skated with different colors on each boot and folded over to corral my laces)

[MCsAngel2]

I still really feel that the issue is that you need a (much?) wider width than the standard wide you've been trying. In the pictures you posted - the sides of your boot are supposed to wrap over the sides of the tongue, all the way up, and the top half of your tongue is not covered at all. I can only imagine how narrow the footbeds are on your feet. And I'm also amazed you've been skating that way for about three years, that's dedication.

By the way, it's normal to not notice pain or fit issues until you're on the ice. Same thing seems to be true for people (like me) with pronation issues. It means there's a lot of back and forth from the shop to the ice and back again, but it isn't just you. I don't know that extra socks will solve the problem.

Anyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but if you can commit to spending the money on semi or full custom boots, making note of the kinds of things you can ask for that I mentioned previously, and finding a tech that is experienced in measuring and ordering semi/full customs, I think that would solve your problem.

[MCsAngel2]

Had to add this seperately for some reason.

Does this mean it's just that the length is too long for my foot? Or should I get the blade mounted further back? While the 5.5s were the exact same length of the blade, the 6s are mounted with the blade all the way to the front with about 1/4 of an inch left over on the heel. I'm really not sure how much of a difference this makes.
Any advice?

I missed this before, from some reason. Are you wearing the same blades on the 6 that you were on the 5.5? Who recommended that/said it was okay? Jackson's blade size chart says a 5.5 size boot should have a 9 inch blade, and a 6 size boot should have a 9 1/4 inch blade.

[AspenonIce]

I missed this before, from some reason. Are you wearing the same blades on the 6 that you were on the 5.5? Who recommended that/said it was okay? Jackson's blade size chart says a 5.5 size boot should have a 9 inch blade, and a 6 size boot should have a 9 1/4 inch blade.

The fitter in Fairfax fit my 5.5s with the 9 1/4 blade. So when I switched to the 6s, the rink owner just moved them over. I had no idea that the 9 1/4 was too long for the 5.5s! I remember it being a huge change from the 9 3/4 on my Opals and it's was supposed to be even shorter??

[MCsAngel2]

Your Opal blades were longer because Riedell's heel is shorter (which makes the sole length longer). The higher heeled boots like Jackson and Edea take shorter blades. It does sound like they were mounted correctly, though, being flush with the toe in front.

[AspenonIce]

AspenonIce.

If sweaty feet are the issue, then what you can try is double knee highs. I've found that a pair of micro-fiber knee highs (2 on each foot) deal with that pretty well (YMMV) and still let you have thin socks on. If you try this out, make sure they're made of microfiber. You can find white ones  online if you root around a bit. If you have skating knee highs from mondor just try two on each foot no matter what color to see if it works. (I think the knee highs in stores are nylon, but those from HUE, L'eggs, Hanes, and  Mondor are all microfiber. I also look for those that are 'opaque' because they're slighty thicker)

Personal Rant: I can buy really good skating knee highs in pink, purple, Turquoise, nude - various shades of tan from dark to light-, but NO ONE Makes THEM IN WHITE! Dear God Mondor what's wrong with white so we can fold them over the top of the boots!! (Not that I'm fussy. I've skated with different colors on each boot and folded over to corral my laces)

Thanks for the advice! The one pair of skating socks usually does enough for me, especially since I throw charcoal sacks in my boots right after I take them off. But I will remember this when my skating time increases (back when I first started I was skating 4-5 hours a week, but that's much harder here as I don't have 4 rinks in close proximity anymore and I'm no longer in college. I also do other activities that take up that time) and my stinky feet have a chance to really set in.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[AspenonIce]

I still really feel that the issue is that you need a (much?) wider width than the standard wide you've been trying. In the pictures you posted - the sides of your boot are supposed to wrap over the sides of the tongue, all the way up, and the top half of your tongue is not covered at all. I can only imagine how narrow the footbeds are on your feet. And I'm also amazed you've been skating that way for about three years, that's dedication.

By the way, it's normal to not notice pain or fit issues until you're on the ice. Same thing seems to be true for people (like me) with pronation issues. It means there's a lot of back and forth from the shop to the ice and back again, but it isn't just you. I don't know that extra socks will solve the problem.

Anyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but if you can commit to spending the money on semi or full custom boots, making note of the kinds of things you can ask for that I mentioned previously, and finding a tech that is experienced in measuring and ordering semi/full customs, I think that would solve your problem.

I just really like skating! The pain is definitely annoying, but getting to be on the ice is worth it. (Kinda wish I had figured that out earlier, maybe I wouldn't have had to run track as a kid

[Query]

BTW, I'm not medically trained, and base what I say on my own experience and other people's feedback.

I sent Mike's store an email. They replied automatically:

We are going to close the shop and retire on March 15, 2020. We are no longer taking orders for new equipment. Please check with Fairfax Ice or Medstar Capital Iceplex for skate fittings.

So I was probably wrong when I remembered that those freestyle skaters at Cabin John said they went to Ashburn. They probably said Fairfax, and the person you saw is probably the best in the area. My bad!

It is hard to believe such a person made such a fundamental error as measuring the foot too thin! There are a few other errors I can think of:
1. I already mentioned that raising the arch, by putting tape under the insole there, might (or might not!) help. Of course if you take that too far, that would hurt too.
2. Sometimes boot makers make mistakes, and make the boot(s) wrong. While I watched Mike work, there were a few cases like that.
3. While I watched Mike work, there was a case where a custom boot maker decided the change of measurement from a prior pair of boots to the current one was too great, and without asking, went back to the prior measurements. I found that almost impossible to believe, but you could call Jackson and ask whether that happened.
4. You mention the pain is at the ball of the foot, by which I assume you mean the position along your foot where the foot can easily bend upwards somewhat without breaking or over-stretching anything. Most boots bend upwards near where they guess the ball of your foot is - possibly in order to make your feet less likely to slip forwards. If they guess wrong, or bend it too much, that can injure your feet. If I thought I might be slightly injured that way, I might GENTLY try bending my bare feet where the boots tries to bend them, and look for pain - but it's your choice whether to risk that. (You are risking it every time you put your feet in the boots.) If it does hurt like that in bent bare feet, see a good podiatrist. Perhaps you should see one anyway - but when I checked, a podiatrist wanted about $400 for an initial appointment!
5. This is probably completely off base, but it was true for me: if the bottoms of your boots and the insoles on them don't match the left/right tilt of your feet, so that there is unequal pressure on the two sides of each foot when you relax, you may be compensating by using muscles to make them touch equally, so you can control the edging of your blades. Eventually, muscle overuse makes those muscles sore. It takes at least a few minutes for the soreness to occur. Once again, tape placed in appropriate places under the insoles can equalize pressure everywhere.

I hate skating with the sole out as it hurts to stand on the metal plate on the heel...
I did get the cheap Target insoles and have put them in, I just need to test them out now.

You might need a lot of experiments to get things right. So you could try first cutting a thin piece of cheap cardboard to shape. If that sort of works, then make adjustments: If the heel is loose, you cut it wider than the original insole there, so it wraps around your heel. Then you might want to try sticking layers of athletic tape (cloth first aid tape or coach tape is pretty durable, and doesn't change shape too quickly) in places on your home-made insole, like under the arch, to make things more comfortable. That might or might not make things better. Of course, it is possible to go too far, to the point where an extra high arch hurts too. Trial and error.

I personally try to create equal pressure on all parts of the foot, except that I try to keep pressure off the front and sides of the toes, and above the ankle, I leave enough space ahead and behind the leg so I can point and flex my ankles. As with everything, not everyone agrees exactly what to do.

But I still have no idea what to do about Nick's idea that you might actually be too tight, and cutting off circulation, somewhere other than the point where it actually hurts. If you can't trust what you feel, so you can't look for high pressure points. Some people have very poor circulation in their feet, and loose circulation easily, and/or cannot feel high pressure points on their feet. I hope that doesn't apply to you! I have diabetes, which sometimes causes that, and am worried that condition will occur. I have no idea whether compression socks would help.

I do hope you find a solution.

[Query]

Mike sent me a separate note:

I've been sending folks to Fairfax Ice Arena or the rink at the University of Delaware. We are closed/retired.

So apparently, the pro shop at the University of Delaware has another world class skate tech. That's 3.5 hours from Tidewater, which is further than Fairfax. But, depending where you are thinking of driving in New York, it might be approximately along the way. The University, if I remember right, is close to Interstate route 95.

However, since you've already gone to Fairfax, it is quite possible that no "ordinary" world class skate tech is good enough, and you might be better off making an appoint at the factory store, where you can possibly be fit by one of the people who make their boots. Unfortunately, they are further away.

[MCsAngel2]

However, since you've already gone to Fairfax, it is quite possible that no "ordinary" world class skate tech is good enough, and you might be better off making an appoint at the factory store, where you can possibly be fit by one of the people who make their boots. Unfortunately, they are further away.

I actually had planned to do this myself, at Jackson (if I had decided to go with them for my next order/customs), and the Jackson rep I spent so long talking to on Facebook that one time told me they don't have in person fittings at the factory in Ontario. I rather suspect they *do* for the world class elite skaters, but for everyone else, if you want semi or full custom from them, they have to be measured and ordered by one of their preferred dealers.

[AgnesNitt]

I don't know at Jackson's, but Harlicks used to sent a fitter to (believe it or not) to roller competitions. If it wasn't for the pandemic, that might be an option when the competitions open up for Jackson's.

PS I'm sorry so many skate companies have disappeared in the last 4 years. But they're almost all family businesses, anybody old enough to remember Oberhammers's?

[Query]

I wish Klingbeil was still around in NYC.

I guess, as long as Jackson says they offer a money-back guarantee, if you get custom skates through one of their favored fitters (did you ask?), it doesn't matter all that much if the fit isn't at the factory itself.

The skate tech Mike recommends at Fairfax is "Marlon". Is that who you saw?
He also recommends M F Sherman at the University of Delaware.

[AspenonIce]

I wish Klingbeil was still around in NYC.

I guess, as long as Jackson says they offer a money-back guarantee, if you get custom skates through one of their favored fitters (did you ask?), it doesn't matter all that much if the fit isn't at the factory itself.

The skate tech Mike recommends at Fairfax is "Marlon". Is that who you saw?
He also recommends M F Sherman at the University of Delaware.

Yes I saw Marlon.

I did not get a response from Jackson on FB yet.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Christy]

Do you have high arches or flat feet? Have you taken the insole out and stood on it to see if it is too narrow for your foot?

[ChristyRN]

Yes I saw Marlon.

I did not get a response from Jackson on FB yet.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Try contacting Mark Ladwig on FB. He reps Jackson and fitted my first pair semi-custom Premieres for duck feet. Great guy!

[AspenonIce]

Do you have high arches or flat feet? Have you taken the insole out and stood on it to see if it is too narrow for your foot?

My feet hang over the insole maybe a 1/4".
And I have collapsing arches. They look normal until I stand on them and then they're close flat.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[AspenonIce]

I have found a temporary solution for the moment while I weigh my options on who to talk to and where to go.
I've skated twice with thin, cheap Target insoles and the new lacing pattern I posted a picture of and I can skate for much longer than I used to before the pain starts (maybe 15-20 mins now instead of 10 or less). And the pain seems more like I'm lacking arch support rather than the sides of my foot being squeezed together. My heels also hurt as the metal plate under them can still be felt, but this is a definite improvement! I'll have to try the riedell footbed soon and see if that can minimize the arch pain.
Thank you all so much for the advice! It's been very helpful so far.
Unfortunately, as afar as seeing someone to help me get new skates, it seems like it will have to wait a while until the situation calms down a little and 14 day quarantines aren't required when traveling between some states.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Query]

I'm quite puzzled that Jackson no longer provides a telephone contact, or even a chat portal, on their web page.

I would hesitate to order custom skates from anyone who doesn't, because customer service is often so important to people who need them.

And the pain seems more like I'm lacking arch support rather than the sides of my foot being squeezed together...
My heels also hurt as the metal plate under them can still be felt

Arch support is easy to add - take athletic tape (coach tape), and put it underneath the part of the arches where you feel a lack of support.

You could try adding extra tape underneath the part of the insoles that is under the heels. I know this will sound strange, but if the cheap insoles let you feel the plate, you could also try replacing them by a layer or two of thin card stock, cut to the same perimeter as the cheap insoles, because it is stiffer - though it probably won't last forever. You could also try cheap thin Leatherette from a fabric store. Leatherette doesn't breath, so probably isn't great in the long run, but if it works, leather would feel about the same, and breathes.

But you shouldn't need to do these things yourself. If Marlon is as good as supposed to be, should have been able to fix this - you did go back there, or call Marlon, to ask about it, right?

Nonetheless, the things I suggested are are worth a try, and are easy to do. I guess it is possible that no one person understands all possible problems, and you may have to figure out for yourself what will work for your boots and feet.

[AspenonIce]

I'm quite puzzled that Jackson no longer provides a telephone contact, or even a chat portal, on their web page.

I would hesitate to order custom skates from anyone who doesn't, because customer service is often so important to people who need them.

Arch support is easy to add - take athletic tape (coach tape), and put it underneath the part of the arches where you feel a lack of support.

You could try adding extra tape underneath the part of the insoles that is under the heels. I know this will sound strange, but if the cheap insoles let you feel the plate, you could also try replacing them by a layer or two of thin card stock, cut to the same perimeter as the cheap insoles, because it is stiffer - though it probably won't last forever. You could also try cheap thin Leatherette from a fabric store. Leatherette doesn't breath, so probably isn't great in the long run, but if it works, leather would feel about the same, and breathes.

But you shouldn't need to do these things yourself. If Marlon is as good as supposed to be, should have been able to fix this - you did go back there, or call Marlon, to ask about it, right?

Nonetheless, the things I suggested are are worth a try, and are easy to do. I guess it is possible that no one person understands all possible problems, and you may have to figure out for yourself what will work for your boots and feet.

All my current mods are things I have done myself with no input from someone at my rink.

The owner of both the Fairfax and Hampton Roads rinks is the one who is helping me and he called Marlon back when I was still in the 5.5s. So when Henry took over, he had discussed something with Marlon about the fitting process. Right now a coach at the rink that used to fit Harlicks has also talked to me about my skates and we're back to square one. I think the current plan is to send foot tracings and see what at least Jackson says about what size boot I should have and maybe also another company. So basically, we started over.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Query]

I hope you aren't saying that you haven't seen Marlon yourself since getting these boots? Going through intermediaries isn't the same thing. E.g., if you talk in person, people are much more likely to offer you a refund, or a free or discounted fix.

Likewise, corresponding with Jackson itself, rather than intermediaries, even if you purchased the boots through an intermediary, makes them much more likely to offer you a refund, or a free or discounted fix.

If I were you, I would look up Jackson, and dig for a phone number to call. A very quick web search - dig yourself if this isn't still good, gives:

  https://www.zoominfo.com/c/jackson-ultima-skates-inc/54482362
  https://www.allbiz.ca/jackson-ultima-skates-inc-519-888-6500

I made the mistake of not talking directly to a boot manufacturer of a pair of misfit skate boots. (Another brand; and admittedly they were customs.) It turns out that if I had talked to the manufacturer directly in a timely fashion, and went where they asked, they would have made replacement boots for free.

If you haven't directly seen Marlon, and talked to Jackson, since the boots arrived, the longer you wait, the less likely they are to help.

[MCsAngel2]

Send them a message on their Facebook page, when I did this a year ago, Mark Ladwig was prompt in getting back to me and spent a long time on chat talking about my issues.

https://www.facebook.com/jacksonultima

Be aware that you won't get the same instant notification that you do for your friends, you'll have to open messenger and see if there are other pending messages.

[Query]

Mark Ladwig was prompt in getting back to me and spent a long time on chat talking about my issues.

Is that the same Mark Ladwig who skated at the 2010 Olympics?