New boot advice

[Loops]

The Edea videos intrigue me.

I agree completely with their loose/tight/loose model- I use that and have found it's much more comfortable across my bunion (also helped with my old risports when I realized I could change the lacing to remove pressure across that part of my foot).  My skates haven't creased like they normally would have, but there are other factors that could be causal there, so I won't go so far as to say the tightening pattern is making my boots last longer.  My feet feel better though.

However, the way to actually lace the holes the over/under thing.... I tried it and noticed no difference in pressure on my skates, but boy is it sure hard to know which lace to pull and where so as to get them tight.  When my US skate tech saw it he said "Russian Lacing", I got a (light) verbal spanking, and we promptly relaced my skates. He is not a fan.  I guess there's a difference of opinion on that out there.

[Nate]

The Edea videos intrigue me.

I agree completely with their loose/tight/loose model- I use that and have found it's much more comfortable across my bunion (also helped with my old risports when I realized I could change the lacing to remove pressure across that part of my foot).  My skates haven't creased like they normally would have, but there are other factors that could be causal there, so I won't go so far as to say the tightening pattern is making my boots last longer.  My feet feel better though.

However, the way to actually lace the holes the over/under thing.... I tried it and noticed no difference in pressure on my skates, but boy is it sure hard to know which lace to pull and where so as to get them tight.  When my US skate tech saw it he said "Russian Lacing", I got a (light) verbal spanking, and we promptly relaced my skates. He is not a fan.  I guess there's a difference of opinion on that out there.

Lacing the over the eyelets locks them, which is necessary for Edeas because the upper doesn't bend, you flex against the tongue, so the laces need to be locked to provide consistent flexion and support.  Non-locked lacing also comes with the risk of the bow unraveling when you flex against them, and you cannot be sure that the laces will retain their preferred tightness while skating.

I used to be a really, really terrible "chronic lacing adjuster," so I think Edeas would really just relapse me into spending half of my ice time [and lessons] at the boards retying my skates trying to get it to feel right/perfect/optimal.  That's a risk I am not willing to take!


They don't fit my foot anyways.  Ordered Ice Flies and was kind of sad I couldn't take them, cause the fit was so off for my foot.  I like the way those look.

[Query]

I tried "Russian" lacing for a while.

It was initially possible to use it to tie laces tighter (which was what I wanted, rather than the loose/tight/loose lacing Edea likes), so they didn't slip back as much as I tied the bow. And it meant I didn't have to re-adjust the lacing during the skating session. But I found I spent more total time using it, especially when loosening the laces to take off the boots.

(I eventually found that if I used my fingers differently when I tied the bow, I could achieve the extra tension I wanted, and without gradual loosening while skating, without using "Russian" lacing. But that is a separate topic.)

Anyway, I don't think the "Russian lacing" system is "bad" - it depends what you want to achieve, and maybe on how coordinated you are. I think a lot of sports equipment things are like that. We sometimes eventually learn ways to achieve what we want, with a given set of equipment or techniques, which can't be achieved as well or easily with other equipment and/or techniques. So there is no way that everyone is going to agree on everything. Plus our bodies are different.

The fact that I need strong sideways ankle support, that Edea's fit technique clearly doesn't give, may be somewhat like that. I've known speed skaters (both ice and inline), and cross country ski racers, and even a few hockey players, who don't need any ankle support, and use low cut boots that end well below the ankle (though those hockey players instead use boots that just leave the ankle uncovered, but are armored elsewhere), to gain extra speed and efficiency. But I can't even use low cut sneakers without fear of injury, and pay extra, and spend extra time looking, to get high cut sneakers. Perhaps Edea's fit technique is almost like using low cut boots - though the pressure across the front of the foot is higher up.

E.g., I used to use off-the-shelf unmodified backpacking boots, and off-the-shelf Riedell skate boots. But my toes are wider than average; my heels narrower; and my toes somewhat shorter, so I ended up buying boots that were too wide elsewhere, too long, that bent in a place other than the balls of my foot. I literally got to the point of re-injuring my ankles every weekend hiking trip, and eventually got a march fracture hiking, and a broken fibula during a skating fall. By changing the way I fit all shoes and boots (and practicing safer falls, a separate topic), I don't get ankle injuries anymore, nor have I had another bone injury, but maybe the way I learned to compensate partly with a snug shoe and boot fit all over (except beside and in front of the toes) makes me want things from my boots that are different from someone who instead developed strong ankles and other techniques, which the Edea fit method appears to require.

MOST experienced skaters want a fairly snug fit pretty much all over, with no slippage anywhere on the foot when skating - a much more snug than most other sports. Some even want a snug fit to the sides and front of the toes, despite the warnings of some podiatrists that that is dangerous, because that helps the particular technique they use to jump.

I suppose Edea's fit might mean you don't need to punch the boots at the ankle bones, because the ankle bones barely if ever touch the boot. I'm a bit surprised that is possible without major blisters, but maybe you can instead develop callouses to prevent blisters. Whereas as I treat callouses as a sign of improper fit due to unnecessary motion.

And apparently Edea's fit technique, which is loose in many places, satisfies some people just fine.

That kind of difference between what people want and have learned to use also shows, like other people said, people are best off going to a store to see what boots feel right to them - though unfortunately, I also admit that initial impression isn't always a perfect guide, and until one has had a few injuries, it may be difficult to figure out what one needs. Learning from your own past injuries sounds like a crazy way to figure out what you need or want, but AFAICT, a lot of athletes do it. Because most skaters do like that snug fit, I suggest Edea's fit might not be the best initial starting point - unless one has already developed strong ankles and feels confident they can make do that way.

But in this case, the o.p. is an experienced skater and skier, who probably has a very good feel for what she needs. Maybe she should trust herself to make the right decisions based on what she feels while trying them on.

[Nate]

Edea's boots do give strong lateral support.  The whole point of them designing them that way is so the boot doesn't bend to the side, but bends forwards.  That way, you don't have to worry about losing lateral support as your boot wears down, as generally happens with traditional leather boots.

If you don't feel enough lateral support, then you should move up from one of their lower leather models to one of the higher models that use a composite material - Ice Fly or Piano.  But I highly doubt a Concerto boot lacks lateral support for anyone.  The circumstances in which that happens is probably out of the design considerations of the product, and such a skater is likely to be S.O.L. with most leather boots as anything as strong laterally as a Concerto is going to be like 85-90 Rating on the Reidell/Risport/Jackson scale...

They will be boots like Aria, RF1 Elite, and Supreme.  So, you will have as much lateral support as a Concerto, but you're also going to have to break in and bend those boots to achieve adequate flexion - like any other leather boot (vs. simply adjusting the lacing looser, as you do with Edeas).  This entire design element is why Edeas have very little break-in.

Edeas are laced looser to allow greater flexion, NOT lateral movement.

Good skating is done on edges and generally with some degree of flexion, so that will always limit the amount of "lateral" movement you can get in the boot while skating - restricted by the pressure your body is putting on the tongue (and lacing, by extension).  How it looks when someone is sitting in a chair is not how it functions, practically.

The issue most people have with Edea is how they fit, the steep pitch of the footbed, and the weird way you modify them (can easily damage the boots if you do it wrong).  I know some people who have kept Edeas for YEARS, but Elite skaters apparently fly through them.  Their durability is very "YMMV."

Edea's Fit is not loose in many places.  The laces are pulled tight up until the last two hooks at the top, which are what you adjust for flexion.  I learned doubles in over booted Klingbeil S-2's with the top hook undone and enough room to fit 4 fingers in the boot.  I never developed a blister or a callus, so I doubt Edea's boots are going to be traumatizing feet (at least those that are a good fit for the boot) or ankles any time soon.

In reality, Edea's boots don't feel drastically different in the ankle area from what I currently skate on.  The big difference was in the fit.  They feel aggressively slanted in the footbed, and I don't think they are good for people with flat feet (or quite low arches) - generally speaking.  If you have to wear something like Yellow SuperFeet in Edeas, it actually exaggerates this, because those insoles have a raised heel.  Jackson has some Supreme Footbeds that may help with people who pronate, but I'm not sure they would do much about the "arch gap" people with flat feet get in boots with aggressively slanted footbed (or higher heel profiles).

[Query]

Edea's boots do give strong lateral support.  The whole point of them designing them that way is so the boot doesn't bend to the side, but bends forwards.  That way, you don't have to worry about losing lateral support as your boot wears down, as generally happens with traditional leather boots.

I'm looking at Edea's video "Correct lacing on Edea skating boot"

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMd3EpUSFcY

at 0:10 - 0:24, and again at 1:45 - 2:03.

While I cannot see the ankle bones, it appears that the sides of the boot do not touch the ankle area, or perhaps only very lightly touches it, when the leg is vertical. Is that an illusion?

If it is correct, how can they provide lateral support?

Or do the Edea boots you have seen or used fit differently than that.

[supersharp]

Not all boots can support any lacing pattern.  Edea boots are supposed to be laced in the "Russian style", with the aglet being pushed in from the top and coming out below.  The boot needs the lacing band to be pressed down rather than pulled up by the laces.

The newer Jackson boots seem to be able to tolerate this lacing pattern as well, but when Jackson sends you the boots, they lace them in the standard fashion (if they are laced at all), with the aglets being pushed into the lacing band from below.

Riedell boots do not hold up well against the pull from the Russian lacing pattern.  See attached photos of a pair of boots I had to repair 2 days before a skater left for a synchro competition.  The lacing pattern caused the laces (Riedell laces that came with the boots) to act like a saw on the top eyelets, cutting through the leather over time.  The repair has been in place for months and has held up very well.

First half of the photos on this message, second on the next so they don't need to be the size of a postage stamp.

[supersharp]

Second half of photos from previous post.

I had problems with cutting into the eyelets on my first Harlick boots, so they added grommets on the top two sets of holes.  Since the boots are custom and are designed to be taken apart and rebuilt, the grommets are only in the thicker top material (applied before the boot and lining are stitched together). The cutting must have been a friction problem rather than a pulling problem, because the grommets are not being deformed or pulled closer to the edge of the lacing band. I've noticed that the grommets on the top eyelets now seems to be standard on the other Harlick boots I see. 

[Bill_S]

That's going the extra mile and great photos showing the repair!

Plus GOE!

[AlbaNY]

Today I learned that I use "Russian lacing."  It's just how I laced when replacing the laces they came with and doesn't seem to be causing any problems. 
It does remind me that the tech mounting blades said something about the lacing being different. 
The top four holes have grommets, so it hasn't been an issue.  (They were somebody's custom Harlicks.)  I now have a similar backup pair that do not have any grommets and wonder if I should lace differently for those?  The eyelets already look oval on those.

[supersharp]

You may want to see if you can get grommets installed on the backup boots--a lot of hockey shops are set up to replace grommets for a pretty reasonable price. 

I would not recommend lacing Harlicks in the Russian style, I don't think it is the intended lacing pattern.  The loop-over lace-lock style on the hooks is fine, the main problem I have seen with hooks is damage from laces being looped around and pulled strongly away from the boot rather than across the boot.  On inexpensive boots, I have seen kids pull the hooks all the way off so there is just a hole left, which makes lacing a serious nuisance.

[Nate]

I'm looking at Edea's video "Correct lacing on Edea skating boot"

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMd3EpUSFcY

at 0:10 - 0:24, and again at 1:45 - 2:03.

While I cannot see the ankle bones, it appears that the sides of the boot do not touch the ankle area, or perhaps only very lightly touches it, when the leg is vertical. Is that an illusion?

If it is correct, how can they provide lateral support?

Or do the Edea boots you have seen or used fit differently than that.

Only the top two hooks are laced looser, depending on the preference of the skater.  The heel is locked in and the bottom hooks is tightened.  Lateral support isn't just about the top two hooks.  There is no joint there, so having massive amounts of tension there is not really a concern.  When you're actually skating, your are going to be in [at least] slight ankle flexion, which will put tension on the tongue/laces which keeps the boot from bowing out during skating.  Edeas are pitched quite aggressively, so it's really hard to spend your time on the ice standing completely upright while skating in those boots.


How the skate performs biomechanically is not the same as what someone sees in a picture or lacing video.  The boot is designed to be laced that way for a reason.  If you make it too tight at the top, then you actually won't allow the boot to perform properly, and will likely break it down in record time.

[Query]

See attached photos of a pair of boots I had to repair 2 days before a skater left for a synchro competition...

http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8754.0

Wow! You did that with a needle and thread, no fancy tools required?

Now you've got me wondering if I could rebuild my old boots the same way.

See

  http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8754.0

[supersharp]

http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8754.0

Wow! You did that with a needle and thread, no fancy tools required?

Now you've got me wondering if I could rebuild my old boots the same way.

See

  http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8754.0

I split the seam open and inserted a metal support pin (aka bobby pin trimmed to correct length with cut end smoothed so it would not gouge into leather, with the bent end of the bobby pin stitched in place so it wouldn't migrate from its intended location).  I used a regular needle and thread to first stitch and glue the torn upper into something resembling its original configuration and then to replace the stitching that I had torn out.  The stitching on the upper (across the tear) comes from a variety of angles and pulls across both above and below to provide some support and also just because I was trying to find locations where there was enough leather that the stitching had a somewhat solid anchor point.  Next, I used contact cement to glue the lining and upper back together, which also glued the repair stitching to the underside of the upper.

For the replacement stitching, I pulled about a third of the thread up through the first stitching hole.  Then I pulled the thread underneath taut (make sure it is at least several inches longer than the distance to the end of the repair) and used it like a bobbin thread in a sewing machine (sorry, I'm not sure what this style of sewing is called).  Each stitch after the first one came down from the top, looped around the lower thread, and returned through the same hole.  I've found this method much stronger in sail repairs, so it seemed like the logical choice, also because that is the type of stitching it replaced. 

It can be somewhat frustrating (that's the nice way to describe it) to get the needle to go straight back up to return through the same hole, so the extent to which you want to work at that is up to you.  I have a hard time being satisfied with anything that isn't pretty close.  A small pair of needle-nose pliers is helpful for pulling the needle through--the contact cement layer is pretty grippy, so it's harder to pull than you might expect for a needle traveling through a previously punched hole.

The final patch on the inside is there to provide some leather that hasn't been torn through.  I didn't want the lace to be pulling only on the bobby pin.  I glued the patch in place and then used a leather punch to make a hole that lines up with the existing repaired lace hole.  The hole on the patch has not enlarged, so it looks like the repair is working as designed. 

A few nice details that you will thank yourself (or your repair person) for later: 

• Hide the knots in between the upper and lining so you don't have a hard lump that can be pressed against your foot.  Maybe I'm the like the Princess and the Pea, but I had to trim the thread from an area on repaired boots a few years ago because I could feel the hard spot pressing into my foot.  Fortunately, up on this part of the lacing band, the tongue offers a fair amount of protection, but the knots will also get better protection if they are hidden.
  
  Match the shape of your metal pin to the shape of the lacing band.  Bobby pins come in different sizes and shapes.  I have found that one of the more arc-shaped pins worked better on one repair and the type with the zigzag top layer worked better on another.  I probably own a thousand bobby pins, so that is to my advantage...
  
  Add foam as necessary to fill out areas that need filling if you are repairing the upper cuff of the boot.  I've had surprisingly good luck with craft foam or material cut off a basic camping pad.

[Query]

Thanks for the very detailed instructions!

If I can find old discarded multi-layer boots in a thrift store, maybe I should try first on them.

I wonder if a sewing awl would be easier than a bobby pin. Some are rated for leather.

I think that style of sewing is known as a "lock stitch" - or at least one style of lock stitch. It's what sewing awls are designed to do too, I think. I've never used one, but they are pretty cheap. When I asked about hand-sewing at a sewing store (though I was more interested in how to sew a skin-on-frame kayak, or a kayak spray skirt), the kind lady told me she used a "hemostat" instead of a needle nose pliers. She used them to grab curved needles during hand sewing. She said that made hand sewing faster, though she wasn't talking about lock stitching. I guess because it let her minimize hand motions, but also the curved needle meant she didn't have to place her hand to the other side of the fabric, which is sometimes impossible.. She seemed pretty knowledgeable - she repaired used sewing machines.

Looking at my boots, it does look like they used lock stitching.

I took a "Home Ec" in high school. There was a section on sewing. Sewing (and Home Ec in general) didn't interest me much, but I thought that sewing machines were fascinating. I couldn't figure out back then how they worked. The teacher was interested in teaching how to use the machine, not in why they worked.

[supersharp]

I have tried a hemostat for this purpose as well, but mine are all set up with a clamp capability that seems to get in the way more than help (they clamp when you don't need them to and then you lose grip on the needle when unclamping).  Ultimately, I found that a small pair of needle-nose pliers easier to control. 

The bobby pin is not for stitching.  It was used as a support bar to strengthen the torn leather lacing band.  It was sewed into place and then the lacing band was glued closed.  See "reinforcement installed" photo--the bobby pin is permanently installed inside the lacing band so that there is no stress on the torn/repaired part of the upper from the laces.

Most awls have large needles in them, which is far too large for stitching through the skate upper.  The needle-and-pliers has the disadvantage of requiring then needle to be pulled fully through both directions, though, so finding and awl with a small needle is a good idea.  I had a very short window of time to repair these boots before the skater left for a competition and I live in the Land of Limited Shopping, so I used what I had on hand.

I had the same fascination with a sewing machine when I started using one at age 6.  At that point, the sewing machine and the bicycle were both the cleverest things I had come across (that I had noticed). 

[ChristyRN]

I have tried a hemostat for this purpose as well, but mine are all set up with a clamp capability that seems to get in the way more than help (they clamp when you don't need them to and then you lose grip on the needle when unclamping).  Ultimately, I found that a small pair of needle-nose pliers easier to control. 

Operating room nurse (33+ years) opinion. Hemostats are great, but see if you can find a "needle holder". They are much better suited for what you're doing with better grip and needle stabilization. Hemostats are for grasping tissue--a much softer grip.

[Query]

Wonderful, Christy RN!

It is obvious that surgeons, and nurses who do surgery, have to be trained to sew efficiently in constrained spaces.

E.g., perhaps closing a wound in a way that leaves your hand inside the patient isn't always ideal.