New boot advice

[dlbritton]

I had my blades sharpened yesterday and the sharpener said my boots are broken down and should be replaced soon.

I currently skate in Riedell 255 Motion boots with Coronation Ace blades. I went with the Riedell's because, in men's wide boots at least, the toe box was wider than a Jackson for the same sole length. I have read many comments about Riedell's being narrow but that wasn't my experience.
If I move up in a Riedell I will probably go with the Bronze Star if I can determine that the dimensions in an 8 1/2 Wide are the same as my current Motions.

The biggest reason I am posting here though is I am also considering an Edea Ice Fly. I tried some on at Adult Nationals several years back and they felt wonderful. I also tried on the Chorus but the were uncomfortable.

I was talking to the rink skate director about boots but she normally only orders Jackson or Edea

Obviously my concern is with overbooting but the Edea rep ( the actual importer), my skate director and numerous blogs and posts have said you can't overboot in an Edea even going with an Ice Fly. I am just now working on single jumps and getting consistent with one foot spins. I will be sticking with the Coronation Ace blade.

So, pros and cons of considering the Ice Fly?  Money isn't a big consideration since even a Riedell Bronze Star is around $550 and the Ice Fly around $750.

[supersharp]

I tried a pair of Edea boots just a few days ago--it was an opportunity to see how they feel on the ice.  What I have heard again and again is that you either love them or you hate them.

I did not love them...

They were not a perfect fit, but I don't think that is actually important in terms of what I learned about the feeling of skating in an Edea boot.  The boot is really a bit like a hockey boot modified for figure skating use--the boot is a stiff shell and all of the fore-aft movement is in the tongue.  I see the advantage in terms of lateral stability, because the boots are rock solid on the sides.  However, one of the things I have always noticed about skating boots as compared to ski boots is that they really bend in a much more 3-dimensional way.  The Edea boot allows this to happen by having the ankle loose enough that you can build diagonal movements out of that relatively wide opening at the front of the ankle.

I like my boots to wrap around my ankles enough that when I bend, I feel the boot engage.  It creates a connection between the boot and my foot that allows me to control what is happening and also gives a tremendous amount of feedback because of how the boot fits around my foot and ankle.  The Edea boot felt dead and unresponsive in comparison to a more classic leather boot.  I also felt like the balance point in the boot was different, and in an odd way.  I have worn plenty of skates other than my own so that I can test things out or figure out why someone is having a problem with their skates.  Usually I notice if the heel feels lower or higher, but with the Edea (with MK Pro blades), I felt like there was an increased amount of pressure on the ball of my foot even though I was balanced over the blade.  It's hard to describe, I guess I would just say that they felt very different on the ice than when I tried them on and did not skate in them.

My gut feeling is that going from a Riedell boot to and Edea boot is going to be a huge change, because Riedell boots wrap around your ankles and you definitely feel the connection in how movements in your lower leg affect the boot.  I wore Riedells for about 6 years, and actually have been testing and breaking in a pair of Bronze Star boots for a friend this spring.  I vastly prefer the Harlicks but the Riedells are certainly solid and I could skate in them if I needed to.  The Edeas would have to be one of the last boots left on the planet for me to be willing to put in the time to change my whole proprioception and movement patterns enough to wear them.

I wear a Harlick dance boot with a lower-cut back and a leather backstay, so I am accustomed to a lower boot, particularly at the back.  The Edea boot was not a dance boot but it was no taller than my dance boots.  There may be variation between models, but I would definitely look at the height of the Ice Fly compared to what you have been wearing.  Also, consider how it would feel to have no boot flex at all, maybe consider skating around with your Riedells very loosely laced on the hooks?  Kind of like skiing with your boots unbuckled...it shows whether you are using the bottom of your foot to guide the boot or if you are using pressure against the boot cuff to control it.  Most of us use a combination of the two.  I definitely had to develop better use of the bottom of my foot when I switched to dance boots, because you don't have the higher cuff.  Worth it in the long run, but to go to a lower cuff and no ankle wrap--that is really a big change.

All that being said, there are a lot of people in Edea boots these days, so maybe they are great once you adjust.  They are certainly lightweight and easy to care for. 

[Query]

Obviously my concern is with overbooting but the Edea rep ( the actual importer)

Do you mean David Ripp, the guy who runs SkatesUS?

I tried to be fit by him a fair number of years ago. He told me he could not sufficiently modify an Edea boot to fit my feet, for a number of reasons. In other words, he seemed honest. So perhaps he would tell you if he thinks you would have a problem.

Supersharp - were your Edea's someone else's boots, that were not modified by him, or someone he trained, to fit you personally? If what he told me then is correct, he can substantially stretch the uppers to fit an individual. It was the lower part, next to the sole, that could not be modified much - though that may be out of date.

OTOH, at one point, Edea had something on their web page that indicated that snug boot fit is really only super-important at two places on the foot (one was the heel. Possibly, the other was the point in front of the ankle?? I don't recall.) Which suggests that if you like a fully snug fit, that might not be for you. But it may well now be out of date. In the mean time, I think Edea has increased the number of sizes and widths they offer.

dlbritton: If cost is genuinely unimportant, I wonder if it would be worth getting full custom boots. I was told that Harlick does that well, if you use one of the traveling fitters that Harlick itself sends out.

Since you teach skiing, you've obviously had a lot of experience with ski boots. Do you need or prefer full custom ski boots?

[dlbritton]

Do you mean David Ripp, the guy who runs SkatesUS?

I tried to be fit by him a fair number of years ago. He told me he could not sufficiently modify an Edea boot to fit my feet, for a number of reasons. In other words, he seemed honest. So perhaps he would tell you if he thinks you would have a problem.

Yes I spoke to David Ripp. I had a card where he measured my feet but can't find it at the moment. Like I said the ice Fly out of the box felt wonderful. The Chorus caused pressure points immediately but he told me the pressure points could be spot heat molded out.

dlbritton: If cost is genuinely unimportant, I wonder if it would be worth getting full custom boots. I was told that Harlick does that well, if you use one of the traveling fitters that Harlick itself sends out.

Since you teach skiing, you've obviously had a lot of experience with ski boots. Do you need or prefer full custom ski boots?

I don't' think I'm at a level to go full custom yet. The Riedell Motion fits fine so as long as Riedell didn't change the last between 2015 and now and they use the same last for the Bronze Star as the Motion I should be okay with a Bronze Star.

What I am experiencing now is a feeling that I can rock my leg back and forth in the boot unless I have it cinched down absolutely as tight as it will go along the tongue. If I can even fit my pinkie in the boot I don't feel stable. I don't remember having this feeling when I was only doing bunny hops and waltz jumps. Now I am doing half flips and working on Salchow, Toe Loop and Loop jumps and even my waltz jumps feel unstable now so I think working on the full jumps finished breaking down my boots.

It could be I am just noticing the difference between skate boots and ski boots. With ski boots it is obviously clamped down around my leg.

In my current ski boots I had the liner heat molded and the shell spot heat molded for pressure points. I have custom orthotics for the foot bed. I'm in a Technica Mach 2 120 flex mid volume boot.

[supersharp]

You may want to get a new tongue installed in your boots while you figure out a plan.  A new tongue really makes a difference, and generally will reduce the amount you have to tighten the boots for them to feel right.  Also, it's easy to underestimate how much difference new laces can make. 

Obviously neither of these suggestions is a long-term solution, but they can buy you a little time to look for more options.  I also find that as skate boots pack out, putting a "filler" insole layer under the footbed can help.  I use cardboard (not corrugated board), whatever is handy. I use a lot of ziploc bags at work, so I have made many filler insoles out of ziploc boxes.  The filler insole lifts your foot up in the boot a tiny bit and makes the boot a bit snugger.

Query--The Edea boots I tried do not belong to me, so they were not shaped for my foot.  They also had not been shaped for the owner's foot, they were unchanged from the original conformation and had only been skated in for about 3 hours. 

[Query]

I suspect you are experienced enough using skates and skis to judge for yourself whether you need new boots. In particular whether they fail to support you with reasonable safety for the type of skating you do. If they are comfortable, and you never feel unsafe... Of course, it might well take a few months for the new skates to come, so you have to take the expected breakdown during that time into account.

I've been doing low level skating in broken down Klingbeil Dance boots that are about 20 years old, and have seen many thousand hours use. But I actually find it very comfortable to do low level skating in broken down boots. Though they are no longer providing good ankle support, and I really do feel a need to replace them. I've stopped jumping altogether, not that I was ever any good at it.

I haven't replaced my tongue, though I did try gluing in a little extra stiff foam under the tongue to cut lace bite. But I switched to round utility (parachute) cord which I can pull a lot tighter than the flat skate laces I used to use, because of the shape, because it fits the holes tightly and doesn't slip back as easily, and because it is a lot more durable. I also make my own insoles, out of camping pad foam, which takes up the expanded interior space. I admit I never tried zip lock bag boxes.

I actually glued stick leather inside to reinforce my first pair of boots, but that didn't work very well. In the mean time I tried an almost unused pair of low level Risport Dance boots, which just happened to fit well, but they broke down in a month or two - I tried to baby them, but apparently they couldn't handle deep edges. I tried to extend their life by tightly wrapping duct tape around them every time, but that really only worked for a few days. And I actually went for that Edea fitting, and probably would have bought if David Ripp had said they could be reformed to fit my feet. I also managed to get an old but completely unused pair of Graf Edmonton Special boots for free (long story) - overbooting to an extreme for my low skating level, as those are high level freestyle boots. They were about 1.5 sizes too large, but I made thick insoles, and other mods, so they worked, but were much heavier and klunkier and stiffer than what I'd used before. Unfortunately, I used mounting screws that weren't long enough in the heels to reach the outsole, and the heels were made of many glued layers of leather, so one heel broke off, and I haven't felt it worth repairing. So I went back to the broken down Klingbeils.

I've noticed that some coaches teach in broken down boots, because they spend so much time on the ice that stiff boots would hurt. But some of them switch to better condition boots for personal skating.

[tstop4me]

You may want to get a new tongue installed in your boots while you figure out a plan.  A new tongue really makes a difference, and generally will reduce the amount you have to tighten the boots for them to feel right. 

As long as the main portion of the tongue (the outer leather or synthetic leather sheet that the lace bites into) is still sound (e.g., no tears), you may not need to replace the tongue.  Often the tongue lining is what breaks down, especially if it's made of sponge foam rubber.  I insert a separate tongue liner between the inside of the tongue and my foot.  I insert the tongue liner after I put my foot in the boot and before I lace up.

The tongue liner is simply an approximately rectangular piece of soft, squishy foam covered with moleskin.  The width is slightly less than the width of the tongue.  The length extends from the top of the tongue to the instep.  Start with an oversize piece, then trim to fit; find what's comfortable and effective for you.

I use Poron polyurethane foam rated Ultrasoft (or Very Soft) in softness, nominally 1/4" or 3/8" thick, depending on how much padding I need.  It's very durable; I've been using the same pair for about 5 yrs now.  But for short-term trial, you can use any soft, squishy foam; I save suitable pieces that come as packing material.

[Query]

According to

  https://marianinc.com/materials/poron-foams/

some but not all Poron foams are safe for skin contact. (BTW, other companies provide Poron too. They may provide different info for their forms.)

I don't know if that is an issue if you wear socks. Or whether it is a significant issue in any event, for most people.

I choose a camping pad as the source of my foam, because it was rated skin-safe, and because a 3x7 foot or so pad was $6 or $7. But maybe it mats (permanently gets thinner over time) more quickly than Poron, and some Poron forms can be heat molded to conform exactly to you, if you feel like doing that.

[tstop4me]

According to

  https://marianinc.com/materials/poron-foams/

some but not all Poron foams are safe for skin contact. (BTW, other companies provide Poron too. They may provide different info for their forms.)

I don't know if that is an issue if you wear socks. Or whether it is a significant issue in any event, for most people.

I choose a camping pad as the source of my foam, because it was rated skin-safe, and because a 3x7 foot or so pad was $6 or $7. But maybe it mats (permanently gets thinner over time) more quickly than Poron, and some Poron forms can be heat molded to conform exactly to you, if you feel like doing that.

Regardless of whether skin contact is an issue or not, as I wrote above, I wrap my Poron sheet in moleskin.  The primary reason is to protect the surface of the Poron sheet from abrasion (which can lead to the foam 'shedding' over repeated insertion-removal cycles).  But it also provides a barrier from direct skin contact (as does my socks).  The moleskin is medical grade.

[Query]

The moleskin is medical grade.

Do you know of any moleskins that are not medical grade? I thought they are all designed for medical purposes, like blister coverage.

As best as I understand it, virtually all insoles and boot liners (including tongue liners) have some sort of anti-fungal treatment.

I wonder if moleskin has an anti-fungal component. Maybe it is isn't designed to be against the skin for more than a few days.

Now that I think of it, I'm not sure that all foam camping pads have anti-fungal treatments. I wonder if I should spray the insoles I made out of them in my boots.

[LunarSkater]

DL, back more on point to your wondering about if Riedell has changed their last on Bronze Stars - call them. I've had a months-long on-and-off conversation with one of their regional representatives about custom boots. I have nothing but praise for their customer service.

[tstop4me]

Do you know of any moleskins that are not medical grade? I thought they are all designed for medical purposes, like blister coverage.

I added the comment that the moleskin I use is medical grade, because otherwise I fully expected that you would hunt high and low for some that was not, and provide links to them (e.g., WWII surplus from an eBayer in Minsk).

[dlbritton]

Spoke to my coach today about new skates. She has been on vacation so this was the first chance we had to talk about boots. She agrees I need new boots.

She was a big NO on Ice Fly's. She has a few skaters that have them but she doesn't recommend them until someone is mastering doubles.

I am going to contact Riedell to see if the Bronze Star or Silver Star has the same fit as the Motion. As far as I can tell I am in the correct size with  an 8 1/2 wide. Toes aren't cramped but have a snug fit, heel stays locked in place (if I really try I can unweight my heel but it doesn't slide up and down at all). The skate director said she no longer has an account with Riedell but she is pretty certain she can order through the rep anyway. The rink orders Jackson and Edea.

[tstop4me]

Spoke to my coach today about new skates. She has been on vacation so this was the first chance we had to talk about boots. She agrees I need new boots.

She was a big NO on Ice Fly's. She has a few skaters that have them but she doesn't recommend them until someone is mastering doubles.

I am going to contact Riedell to see if the Bronze Star or Silver Star has the same fit as the Motion. As far as I can tell I am in the correct size with  an 8 1/2 wide. Toes aren't cramped but have a snug fit, heel stays locked in place (if I really try I can unweight my heel but it doesn't slide up and down at all). The skate director said she no longer has an account with Riedell but she is pretty certain she can order through the rep anyway. The rink orders Jackson and Edea.

There's no competent pro shop near you that's an authorized Riedell retailer?  A tech typically takes multiple foot measurements and foot tracings (there's a chance your feet may have changed) and sends them off to a Riedell rep for sizing recommendation.  That way, Riedell is responsible for proper fit.

[dlbritton]

There's no competent pro shop near you that's an authorized Riedell retailer?  A tech typically takes multiple foot measurements and foot tracings (there's a chance your feet may have changed) and sends them off to a Riedell rep for sizing recommendation.  That way, Riedell is responsible for proper fit.

There is a Riedell retailer 1 1/2 hours away. There was one 45 minutes away but I guess covid did in her business, it closed last year.
I will talk to the skate director to see if she has equipment to measure for Riedell. She has equipment for Edea and Jackson. I don't know if the Jackson equipment measures inches or direct sizes.

I did hear back from Riedell and the last used is the same for the Motion (current boot), Bronze and Silver Star. The last is the same as what was used in 2015 when my Motions were manufactured.

I also printed out the Riedell measurement template and will use that for an approximation.

[Query]

Could you contact the boot manufacturer(s), and ask for a pro shop or skate tech recommendation?

[Kaitsu]

I think you didn't mention how many times per week you are skating. What are your main concerns in over-booting. Risk to cause damages to your selves or are you more scared that they would prevent you to do certain things?

Its good to hear peoples opinions and experiences, but in certain level it is like I would ask peoples recommendation if I should choose Nike or Adidas shoes. No-one cannot say how my foots looks or what are my personal needs. Especially kids are often choosing figure skating boots based on that what they see in their friends. I would choose boot which feels best on my foots without worrying too much over-booting. How ever I need to say that I have never skated with figure skates, so I cannot say that I would be expert on selecting boots.

[supersharp]

I definitely agree that so much about this depends on the shape of the foot and any anomalies such as bone spurs, bunions, and so on.  If the Riedell last fits well, my guess is the Jackson last will not fit as well. 

OVER-BOOTING
My biggest concern in over-booting is the potential loss of ankle mobility due to too much stiffness.  In ski instruction, we called the ankle "the expert's joint" because proper use of the ankle really takes awhile to develop.  Skaters who over-boot early in their development tend to have movement patterns that minimize ankle use, and it definitely works against them. 

Once the skater is at the point where they use their ankles correctly, over-booting is a bit less of a concern, because the skater tends to force the boot to bend so the preferred balance point is found.  Also, larger skaters and adults tend to have less over-booting problems because their height gives them more leverage to press into the tongue of the boot.

Since dlbritton is a ski instructor, I would expect that he already has good use of his ankle joint and is comfortable "crushing the boot" as my old coach used to say.  And he is also an adult with plenty of leverage to manipulate the boot.  With that being the case, my guess is the Bronze Star would be an appropriate boot.  It will take some break-in, but once it starts to flex forward (most skaters don't tie the top row of hooks until the boot starts to bend adequately with the lower 3 tied), it will probably feel great...assuming the Riedell last is a good fit to his foot.

[Nate]

Over-booted skaters are predisposed to all sorts of overuse injuries by their equipment.

Err on the side of caution with boot strength, IMVHO.

If you end up developing issues in you hip, back, groin or foot these things can actually be very hard to pinpoint and diagnose properly.  It's common to get a "minor" diagnosis when you have a more serious insidious issue brewing, and you can be in pain for years before its pinpointed, at which time lots of damage can be done as a result of it.

Also, if you have issues with the boots you're likely going to have to replace them, which will cost more than just starting with a softer pair... because you will have wasted money on less productive lessons and sessions due to them, in addition to future money wasted on sessions and lessons to eliminate the compensatory mechanisms you developed to compensate for the lack of proper ankle flexion in those boots - habits which can also predispose you to injury because they're shifting work to muscles that otherwise shouldn't need to bear that additional load.

[dlbritton]

All, thank you for your input.

After talking to my coach, the skate director and Riedell support I have decided to stay with the Riedell 255 Motion in an 8 1/2 Wide (my current size). The director measured my feet and I am still an 8 1/2 W according to her calculations. My current boots seem to fit correctly and the last or sizing has not changed since my current boots were made.
I asked the director about moving up to the Bronze Star which is the next level up in terms of cost and flex (80 vs 70 for Motion) and she said if I was going to be working on doubles she would say yes (but that is highly unlikely).

Lead time for the boots is 6-8 weeks at present which would let me get through my first competition in July on my current boots ( they are still usable but need replacing) and give me 6 weeks or so to get used to the new ones before 2 more competitions in mid September.

The one thing I would like to ask opinions about is the actual fit of my current boots. As I have said they are comfortable with no heel lift or foot slippage and my toes are not cramped but when I look down on my boots it does appear they are open fairly wide over my arch and ankle when they are tied tight. I have seen pictures showing boots that are correctly sized, too small and as too large. Mine do look somewhat like the too small/narrow boots. I am attaching pics from the other day of my boots as they look laced tight.

[Loops]

I'm curious to hear what other people say.  They look fine to me- I lace mine rather wide over my arches too (the laces are pulled tight, but not taught, and there is some gaping between the sides of the boot and the tongue). I have bunion issues though.  As long as your feet are comfortable, and you can connect with the boots, I'd say all is good.

[Kaitsu]

I am really not expert on boots, but to my eyes laces in your pictures looks to be very tight on the area where lace hooks are.

Here are couple videos what I typically ask people to watch if I see their boots to be broken boots when I sharpen their skates or if I do see that they skate wrongly laced skates. These videos demonstrates very clear way how boot behaves if they are laced correctly and when they are not. Maybe it could be useful if someone would make video recording while you try same things with your own skates?

https://youtu.be/xMd3EpUSFcY

https://youtu.be/oX2BdAJH_Q8

https://youtu.be/gXkdemuRLEs

[Nate]

From what I see in the pictures, you need to consult with another skate professional - including the question about boot strength, because "what jumps are you doing" is a hilariously bad way to gauge whether an adult skater needs more boot strength.  Height and Weight matter more than if they're doing single or doubles, IMVHO.  Even on singles, your boot needs to support your body weight properly when you land anything... or when you're skating, or spinning, etc.


Those boots do not look to be fitted properly.  They do look a bit too wide to me.  They are buckling and wanting to crease in some wrong places.


Either they are too light, or they are too wide.


IMO, it is odd to see someone who needs a wide boot have buckling up in the toe area like that...


I don't think the tight lacing in the ankle area is remarkable, as that could be a result of someone having relatively small ankles.  However, the profile of the skate seems off, and it seems to be wearing in oddly.


I would consult with another professional, respectfully.


EDIT: Also, if your laces were "too tight," you wouldn't need to ask us about it.  Your feet would surely tell you!

[Query]

...
https://youtu.be/xMd3EpUSFcY
...

Wow, Edea sure doesn't think the boot should provide ANY sideways (or backwards support). For all intents and purposes, the skate shown only exists on the bottom and the upper front of the tongue. I'm not sure whether that boot even locks in the heel - though I can't really tell.

Maybe I'm just not athletic enough, but I would probably injure myself if I had a boot that fitted that way. I especially need sideways support, to prevent ankle sprains and sideways motion, and a locked in heel.

The unusual lacing system Edea advocates, which tends to lock the laces in place under the sides of the upper, sort of makes sense in that context - because that fit creates essentially no tension on most of the lace, and the lace would otherwise be free to shift.

I am going to guess that the fit Edea shows would work best for elite level athletes who have extremely well conditioned muscles in the foot, ankle, and lower leg.

[Query]

I like what Nate said.

It is especially obvious there is empty space (and low pressure) inside the boots on the big toe side, probably just behind the big toe. That's why it was indented there. The indentation couldn't have occurred if there wasn't empty low pressure space for it to occur there. I might have added moleskin to the boot there, so that the pressure over the foot would be more uniform. Not only would that slow breakdown, it would have added control there.

You had these boots heat molded, right? I'm a little surprised the heat molding wouldn't have taken care of this.

I'm not completely sure, but think there is also a low pressure or empty region over the toes, where the boots indent downwards. I might likewise have added moleskin there.

But bear in mind that I like snug fits, and tend to believe that it is a good idea to maximize boot lifetime.