Wissota powered skate sharpener review

[Bill_S]

It's not possible to use a 3" wheel. The ~5" diameter motor housing upon which the wheel is mounted would interfere with the skate holder, and the wheel could not be properly dressed.



Wheel diameter reduces during its lifetime. It could wear to approximately the diameter of the motor housing (roughly 5 inches diameter) before I would not be able to dress the wheel. The diamond dressing unit would interfere with the motor housing trying to dress a wheel much smaller than the motor diameter. There is spare travel in the dressing mechanism, but it couldn't be used.



The mounting hole in the grinding wheel is exactly 0.500 inch. The wheel is 0.375 inch thick. A new wheel is 7" diameter. The Wissota motor has a nominal RPM of 3450.

[tstop4me]

Thanks, Bill.  Oh, well.

[SkaterNomad]

Contemplating buy sharpener.
Enjoy Figure Skating. Rink shop Sparx only, limited outside contact availability.

Sanity check this idea - Suggest tools/extras? Wisdom?

========
Volume: Self (maybe friends - No biz/charging);

Area: Unheated+finished garage. Temp (F): 40s-50s (consider spot heater if drops to 30s).
Workspace: Have dinky table - maybe buy (adjustable height) table or rolling toolbox

Experience: None (good test marketing, hehe); build some skill from old blades.
Tools: None specific to this (household only)

Blades: Matrix Supreme, Paramount 420SS12;

Order:
- 911 Skate Sharpener: $1225 (normal) / $1625 ("Portable")
- Holder (in addtion or swap): Elite 3-D Universal Figure Skate Holder $425
- 100-Grit Blue Grinding Wheel Stone: $36
- Toe Pick Protector: Stair gauges from h/w store

- Wissota "Elite" Even Edge Checker: $129.99 - Spendy - is one of better built or best for figure blades?

- Wissota Skate Sharpening Wax: Bill initially undesired (residue on stone), but later changed/now uses?

- Wissota Rocker bars: $28, needed? Seems tells if need fix but fix requires specialist/profile equipment
- Wissota Universal Wheel Dresser: $275 - unneeded/replacement part?

- Paramount edge tooling checkers?
- Rulers?

Question: Need of the dust hood (will I miss in personal use)? No dedicated dust Vac, a shop vac is around. "Portable" has no dust hood.

Question: How measure material taken off after a sharpening? Likewise, how measure "capacity" blade has? Tools? Data for idea of normal/abnormal.

Question: ROH checker tool? Wissota Hollow Depth Indicator H.D.I.: $259.95, Worth?? Maybe vagrancies of wheel dressing leads to inconsistent/not particularly useful data? Seems cheapo ones of e-bay basically same result?

Question: Level/shimming? Bill no mention, but did shim pedestal? Machinist background, maybe have true level floor like Rick & Morty...


Post purchase:
- Check/fix Wissota "Elite" Even Edge Checker for squareness (potentially heavy paint)


Miss anything?

[tstop4me]

Question: ROH checker tool? Wissota Hollow Depth Indicator H.D.I.: $259.95, Worth?? Maybe vagrancies of wheel dressing leads to inconsistent/not particularly useful data? Seems cheapo ones of e-bay basically same result?

I can answer this one for you.  I have the HDI gauge (originally manufactured by Edge Specialties).  It works great on traditional blades with flat, parallel sides.  It works marginally with Paramount blades (I have the original design, not the ones with new, wider runners).  And it won't work at all with Ultima Matrix blades (tried them when I was at a shop).  The body of the gauge needs to clamp onto flat, parallel sides.  There is a problem using the gauge with chassis+runner blades if the width of the runner is too small:  the clamp hits into the chassis and doesn't seat fully.  The Paramount runner is sufficiently wide (at least when new) that the gauge just about clamps adequately (but you need to handle the gauge very carefully).  The Ultima Matrix runner is not wide enough at all for the clamp to seat viably (you would need a custom modification, and probably also need to swap out the stock contact tip ... not worth it).  [ETA:  The HDI gauge measures how even the edges are directly (more quantitatively than edge checkers), and the ROH indirectly:  It measures the depth of hollow.  You measure the blade thickness separately with a micrometer or caliper (you need to purchase these separately).  From these two values, you can calculate the ROH (assuming ideal geometry).]

[Bill_S]

Sanity check this idea - Suggest tools/extras? Wisdom?

========

Area: Unheated+finished garage. Temp (F): 40s-50s (consider spot heater if drops to 30s).

The instructions have a procedure for determining if it's too cold, but you have to have the machine there to evaluate motor start times. You might want to call them to see if your temps are remotely problematic. Cold weather start up precautions from Wissota...

Workspace: Have dinky table - maybe buy (adjustable height) table or rolling toolbox

Should be fine if stout. Make sure it doesn't flex or wobble. The sharpener is heavy. FWIW, my pedestal height is 34". The sharpener bolts onto the top of it.

Experience: None (good test marketing, hehe); build some skill from old blades.

Practice on old blades will give you a feel. Once you adjust the holder for your own blades (and don't re-adjust for others), there won't be much adjustment needed for subsequent sharpenings.

Tools: None specific to this (household only)

Buy as you need.

Blades: Matrix Supreme, Paramount 420SS12;
Order:
- 911 Skate Sharpener: $1225 (normal) / $1625 ("Portable")
- Holder (in addtion or swap): Elite 3-D Universal Figure Skate Holder $425

Call Wissota to have the figure skate holder substituted for the standard hockey skate holder for only the difference in price. Ask about clamping your particular chassis-framed blades to make sure they work. I called to check about swapping holders and placed my order over the phone.

- 100-Grit Blue Grinding Wheel Stone: $36
- Toe Pick Protector: Stair gauges from h/w store

- Wissota "Elite" Even Edge Checker: $129.99 - Spendy - is one of better built or best for figure blades?

The Even Edge checker is very accurate, but paint thickness could affect reading slightly. I tweaked mine using a good machinist's square as reference. Ask Wissota about usage with blades mounted in chassis/frames. It requires a bit of exposed blade for one magnet to stick to the side of the blade. There are other options, i.e. their Basic Even Edge Tool, small adjustable squares, etc. Frankly, you can get close with a piece of Masonite held down against the edges and sighting carefully down the blade.

You can see that this blade is good, but not perfect, with the piece of Masonite held down against the edges. I carry this "tool" in my skate bag in case someone new approaches me about sharpening their blades.

- Wissota Skate Sharpening Wax: Bill initially undesired (residue on stone), but later changed/now uses?

Your call. Residue is removed with the wheel dressing required for the next sharpening anyway. It's a slight improvement, but I get surprisingly smooth results even without it.

- Wissota Rocker bars: $28, needed? Seems tells if need fix but fix requires specialist/profile equipment
- Wissota Universal Wheel Dresser: $275 - unneeded/replacement part?

That stuff is not needed. The wheel dresser they sell is for any machine, especially those without a dressing diamond. With the Wissota, you'll get a dressing diamond, adjustable for a wide range of ROH, so avoid the Universal Wheel Dresser.

- Paramount edge tooling checkers?
- Rulers?

Keep it simple. You don't need the expensive Paramount device unless you plan to re-profile blades. Most of us adapt to our blades as they wear anyway. The blades given to me for practice sharpening by a former Scottish national champion were so flat that I don't know how he skated on them, but he did. This device would be most useful for the  skater who has two or more pairs of skates and needs to have the same profile for all of them.

Ruler? I used one when setting up the machine and fitting the dust hood. It might be nice to have a thin stainless ruler about 12" long to judge blade straightness down it's length.

Question: Need of the dust hood (will I miss in personal use)? No dedicated dust Vac, a shop vac is around. "Portable" has no dust hood.

Your call. It will get messy without some dust collection, and you will probably want to wear a dust mask. Plenty of masks around now, though.

The metal hood required some finessing to fit my sharpener. I had a lot of tools to choose from, but perhaps simple bending of the sheet metal where it fits would be enough. Wissota has a smaller/cheaper dust collection option that fits to a vac too.

Even with dust collection, I still need to use a hand-brush to sweep away remaining debris.

Question: How measure material taken off after a sharpening? Likewise, how measure "capacity" blade has? Tools? Data for idea of normal/abnormal.

A micrometer can measure material removed, but why bother? I make a pencil tracing of the blade profile when it's new and can see how different it becomes over time.



Comparing scans of two tracings (2007 vs. 2019) of my old Coronation Aces, sharpened by hand over a 12-year period.



With a blade held in a chassis/frame, it won't be as easy to trace, but you might find a way. You can see blade wear at a glance if you can.

Most skaters estimate remaining life by the amount of chrome relief left, but stainless blades won't have that. Perhaps scribe a light line about a tenth of an inch from the edge, and replace when it approaches the line? If you have a chassis holding your blade, measure with a finely-divided steel ruler the distance from the chassis to the blade's edge and compare over time. When you wear away between 1/16" and 1/8", replace the blade.

Question: ROH checker tool? Wissota Hollow Depth Indicator H.D.I.: $259.95, Worth?? Maybe vagrancies of wheel dressing leads to inconsistent/not particularly useful data? Seems cheapo ones of e-bay basically same result?

I use flat steel radius gauges. They are certainly close enough, but not as sexy as the expensive HDI gauges.

I purchased an inexpensive set from McMaster Carr - https://www.mcmaster.com/radius-gauges/

Question: Level/shimming? Bill no mention, but did shim pedestal? Machinist background, maybe have true level floor like Rick & Morty...

A reasonable floor level, not machine shop level is desired. Some sharpening machines have ball-bearing carriages, so they would need to be more level. The skate holder used by Wissota has a felt bearing surface against the machined cast iron top, so it has light damping friction in whatever direction you move it. Slighty out-of-level won't affect sharpening on this machine.

I didn't need to shim the base to prevent rocking, but that depends on the floor.

BTW, the pedestal base is larger and stronger than it looks in photos. The floor base is a wide 18" square and made of heavy 1/4" steel plate, with a 4" square tube upright, probably also 1/4" thick. It's very heavy and stable.

Post purchase:
- Check/fix Wissota "Elite" Even Edge Checker for squareness (potentially heavy paint)

You'll need some sort of square to assess this. It was a slight tweak for mine. A good small square is useful anyway.

Miss anything?

If so, post away.

[tstop4me]

Keep it simple. You don't need the expensive Paramount device unless you plan to re-profile blades. Most of us adapt to our blades as they wear anyway. The blades given to me for practice sharpening by a former Scottish national champion were so flat that I don't know how he skated on them, but he did. This device would be most useful for the  skater who has two or more pairs of skates and needs to have the same profile for all of them.

Correction here:

The Paramount tools are not used for profiling.  They are used to check how level the edges are.  They are similar to the Wissota two-piece Elite Edge Checker (a measurement piece that magnetically sits on top of the two edges and a reference horizon piece that attaches to a suitable surface).  With the Paramount tools, the reference horizon piece has different configurations to accommodate different blade geometries (e.g., traditional blades with flat, parallel sides; traditional blades with tapered and/or side-honed sides; or chassis+runner blades).  Unlike the Wissota unit, the reference horizon pieces on the Paramount units do not have a graduated scale.

[tstop4me]

Miss anything?

Safety goggles to protect your eyes.

[Query]

Contemplating buy sharpener...

It used to be that the Edge Specialties Pro-Filer was a $100 hand tool kit that did an adequate job, and I have used them on (old style) Matrix blades, including Dance, Supreme, Synchro styles. Sure, it took a few minutes / blade to do a good job - 5 minutes if I waited too long - longer than a skilled powered sharpener operator can manage. So what?

Pictures are at https://www.medstarhealth.org/mymedstar-patient-portal

But Wissota bought out Edge Specialties, and has not chosen to make Pro-Filers.

You could perhaps buy a used one on eBay, etc. Be careful you get the figure skating kit, not the hockey kit - the gap sizes are much different.

Also, an even better hand tool was made by Berghman. E.g.,
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dgf4D56IJE
but I think they stopped being made in about 1949. They too can be bought used, rather cheap.
BUT: they only were made for 1/2" hollow.
And, the stone was old tech - quite crumbly. Very coarse grit too. You can buy modern 1/2" abrasive cylinders a number of places that would work - I would choose one with diamond grit. I used one from a 1/2" Pro-Filer without a problem.
Things I liked about them was the adjustable width, and the self-centering mechanism, and the fact that you can see what you are doing very well, so you can choose to sharpen almost up to the toe pick. If you wanted to use them with a blade that wasn't flat (I haven't tried this), there is plenty of space to apply adhesive compressible foam to both sides of the gap, which I think would work.

Some people have successfully sharpened skates with nothing but an abrasive cylinder - no holder. I think they place there fingers in such a way that they sort of act like a gap, that keeps the blade centered on the stone. But my hand-eye coordination isn't that good. When I've tried that, I kept nicking the edges, and creating non-uniform edges. Some people can even hand craft a custom hollow (including a hollow that varies along the length) using a smaller radius cylinder. That is way beyond my coordination.

BTW, at hand sharpening speeds, you can use water instead of oil or polishing fluid. It won't mess up the stone (though oil alone isn't really that bad - many knife sharpeners use oil), and if it spills in your skate bag, it doesn't make much of a mess. But you may need to re-apply the water once or twice while sharpening, whereas you only need apply oil once during sharpening. I don't see that as a serious problem. (As best I understand it, at machine sharpening speeds, water would boil, so is not usable.)

(Incidentally, I found a bunch of cheap sharpening hand tools from a Chinese importer. But they all had 1/4" hollow! And I have tried another skate sharpening hand tool, that some hockey players have used, that was complete junk, and could not produce reliable edges.)

Hand tools are NOT good for skate sharpening businesses. Powered machine sharpeners are faster. If you work out the math, even the expensive ones are worth it for a business that does a lot of sharpenings.

There is another issue. At current, as Kaitsu pointed out, the major figure skating blade makers do NOT put a hollow on blades. I.E., there is no initial hollow, when you order a new blade from the factory, except with some extremely cheap blades that probably aren't worth using by figure skaters. Hand tools are not adequate for that - you would take a very long time, and wear out the stone. I know that from experience. (Maybe you could get by with those initial very coarse stones that came with the Berghmans...) I have verified with another professional skate tech that Kaitsu is right about this for Jackson Ultima Matrix, MK and Wilson figure skating blades. So you would need to find a (good) skate tech to create the original edge. (BTW, many mail order retailers will do it before shipping - you have to ask to find out.) Likewise, if you wanted to modify the profile in a significant way, hand tools are too slow. (I have restored the "sweet spot" - i.e., the transition point between the main rocker and the spin rocker, around where many people like to turn and spin - using Pro-Filers. But that is a very minor change, that takes less than a minute at most, though I find it quite important, because it helps me figure out when I am on that part of the blade. I also like to move it to where it works best for my feet, because my toes are shorter than what blade makers assume.)

Anyway, good luck with your adventure.

I must warn you that there is a more difficult learning curve with powered sharpeners than hand tools. That's because they take off metal more quickly and easily.

>Question: How measure material taken off after a sharpening?

As Bill points out, a micrometer can do it, or even a very precise and consistent calipers. But you have to mark the point along the blade you are measuring it from. Some people mark the bottom of the blade with a pencil or magic marker. They know to stop when no ink remains. You can actually remove a little less with hand tools than with a powered sharpener - because to some extent, at the slower speeds of hand sharpening, you are reshaping the steel, rather than just grinding it too shape. So maybe you remove .001" instead of .003", if you are good, and you haven't waited too long between sharpenings. In theory, that saves you money. In practice you can get somewhere near 30 machine sharpenings even removing .003", if you assume that you have an adequate blade shape for about .1" - i.e., where the toe pick digs into the ice too easily, when you are just trying to skate. The difference is significant if you have $500 blades. Maybe not as important if you have $150 blades. I've talked to an (in my opinion incompetent) skate tech who routinely removed at least 1/16", which would mean the blade would have a good shape for 1 or 2 sharpenings - imagine doing that on a $500+ blade pair! That said, you can get a little more use out of an old blade if you carefully trim the furthest back toe pick ("the drag pick"). But that takes a certain amount of skill and care.

When I started using the Pro-Filer, it didn't occur to me to trace the blade profile, like Bill discusses. I messed up a pair of expensive MK Dance blades that way. I had to figure out that I should have traced the blade too. I also had to learn to reverse the tool or the skate half-way through, so the two edges will be of equal height even if the Pro-Filer gap is slightly off center.

[tstop4me]

It used to be that the Edge Specialties Pro-Filer was a $100 hand tool kit that did an adequate job, and I have used them on (old style) Matrix blades, including Dance, Supreme, Synchro styles. Sure, it took a few minutes / blade to do a good job - 5 minutes if I waited too long - longer than a skilled powered sharpener operator can manage. So what?

Pictures are at https://www.medstarhealth.org/mymedstar-patient-portal

But Wissota bought out Edge Specialties, and has not chosen to make Pro-Filers.

You could perhaps buy a used one on eBay, etc. Be careful you get the figure skating kit, not the hockey kit - the gap sizes are much different.

<<By the way, you posted a link to a medical provider, not to an image of a Pro-Filer.>>  As I pointed out in a different thread, there is still some new Pro-Filer stock available from the people who previously ran Edge Specialties.  See

OK.  Here's the word from Jan Anderson at Edge Specialties [Brad and Jan Anderson run Edge Specialties]. 

*  They are retiring.

*  They have sold the "pro-filer.com" domain to Wissota.

*  They have sold the boot punch, HDI gauge, and rocker bar product lines to Wissota.  These are the products featured on the Edge Specialties page of the Wissota website (where you land when you enter "pro-filer.com" in a browser).

*  Edge Specialties still has some Pro-Filers in inventory for sale.  If you are interested, please contact:

Jan Anderson
Edge Specialties, Inc.
phone 320-808-1536
e-mail pro-filer@charter.net

BUT, the OP has Ultima Matrix blades and Paramount blades.  I have the original design Paramount blades.  The Pro-Filer will not work with them unless you modify the chassis (that holds the abrasive cylinder) of the Pro-Filer.  That can be done with hand tools:  I've done it  I don't know whether modification is needed for the recently revised Paramount blades (which claim to have wider runners).

As for the current Ultima Matrix blades (non-interchangeable runners) that have been sold for a while now (not the Matrix I with interchangeable runners that you keep referring to), the width of the runner is even smaller than that of the original Paramount.  The chassis of the Pro-Filer would need an even more substantial modification.  I wouldn't attempt it with hand tools.  It could be readily done with a milling machine if I had access to one (I don't), and paying a machinist to do it would probably cost more than the unit itself (assuming you can find a machinist willing to do a one-off job).  Even then, I'm not sure whether whatever remained of the guide slots would be deep enough to hold the unit in alignment with the blade (I'm skeptical).  So you could end up spending >$200, just to find it doesn't work.

And, as discussed in other threads, the Pro-Filer, as with almost any tool, has its own set of pluses and minuses, its own learning curve, its own limitations to deal with and work around.  I don't think it's accurate to portray to random skaters (who are newbies to the Pro-Filer) that they can pop the unit out of the box, and, voilà, have fresh edges in 5 min or so.

[SkaterNomad]

Great infos - thank you all very much! Hope reference for others.

Additions:
- Eye Goggles + Dust Mask(s) dedicated to space: Safety good
- Radius Gauge: Low cost RoH checker
- Mini broom/sweep brush nearby: Tidy tool

Nice to have:
- Steel ruler (1/10" or finer): Measure chassis to blade edge, compare over time

Skipped:
- HDI Gauge: skipped, high cost & limited viability
- Pedestal, DCS, Dust Cover: Will put monies toward work table, consider jerry rig shop vac tube. Also may higher shipping (pedestal = heavy)
- Portable Case: Skipped, cost high/need lessor

Process Step to Do: Trace initial blade profile (+scan/archive), useful reference point, highly recommended.

More data/experience needed:
- Paramount Measuring tool(s): May find better with traditional blades with tapered and/or side-honed sides; or chassis+runner blades. Wonder if side by side experience Paramount measure tool vs Wissota (or even Sparx) Edge checker tools. Worth noting measure may be helpful but anecdotal experiences suggest [great] skaters done miracles on super wacky edge measurements.

--

Contemplated handheld sharpener but RoH 7/16" elusive, long(er) term availability question, dead/dying instrument. Modern holders seem focus tooling/"track" (but $$$), lessor reliance consistently good steady hands. Maybe someday handheld revive. Lament: sport high cost barrier for many, going way of stone masons/metallurgy/etc - low cost viable tool maybe good for future.

Question: Bill profile tracing of 12 year Aces seem margin of error identical - tiny tiny shorter edge. Nearly no steel removed? Extrapolated: maybe 30-50 year blade? Am I misunderstanding? Seems excellent profile retention.

Why interest measure steel: Mechanism for trust but verify, while still honing own skill. Thinking if measure before sharpen, measure after, difference = Delta. Delta can suggest too aggressive/poor sharpener. Edge check before/after help validate edge consistency. Profile trace help identify round offs etc. Often people say butchered blades, interesting if quantify (extent, area). Perhaps misguided direction? Would be nice to have real data to support sharpener recommendation.

--

Ordered:
--------
- Wisotta 911 Skate Sharpener Package x1
  - 911 Machine
  - 3-D Three Dial Skate (Hockey) Holder (kept in; for hockey/edge case figures)
  - 80 Grit Pink Wheel
  - Diamond Dresser
- Wisotta Elite 3-D Universal Figure Skate Holder × 1
- Wisotta 100-Grit Blue Grinding Wheel Stone × 1
- Wissota "Elite" Even Edge Checker x 1

Need to pickup:
- Toe Pick Protector: Stair gauges from h/w store
- Radius Gauges: ebay/McMaster-Carr
- Eye Goggles dedicated to space
- Dust Mask(s) dedicated to space
- Mini broom/sweep brush
- [Nice to have] Steel ruler (1/10" or finer)

Workspace items:
- Craft/buy toolbench
- [Once workbench in place] Discrete Shop Vac, jerry rig so suck sparks/shavings away

[tstop4me]

Wow!  That's great.  It would be enlightening to get a detailed review from you.  It would not be redundant with Bill's, but complementary.  Bill is a mechanical engineer, and a skilled machinist and woodworker.  You evidently don't have such a background.  I've been considering purchase of a Wissota myself (still need to finish some home remodelling first).

[Query]

As for the current Ultima Matrix blades (non-interchangeable runners) that have been sold for a while now (not the Matrix I with interchangeable runners that you keep referring to), the width of the runner is even smaller than that of the original Paramount.  The chassis of the Pro-Filer would need an even more substantial modification.  I wouldn't attempt it with hand tools.  It could be readily done with a milling machine if I had access to one (I don't), and paying a machinist to do it would probably cost more than the unit itself (assuming you can find a machinist willing to do a one-off job).

How can a milling machine REDUCE the thickness of a gap?

If you had access to a full precision metal shop, perhaps you could just make yourself something similar to the Pro-Filer. I.E., a block of metal with a given thickness, with a hole drilled in it, and a slot of the right thickness centered on the hole. Would that be hard to do in  a good precision shop?

I once modified a Pro-Filer that was designed for hockey blades for use with figure blades. (I ordered it on eBay, and didn't realize it was for hockey until it arrived.) I used a metal file to widen the slot, and had to be careful to maintain the centering, and another file to thin the slot depth, so it would fit my blades, which even with the old Matrix I blades, had shorter exposed runners than usual blades MK and JW made. It was a fair bit of work, and people unable or unwilling to take precise measurements might have trouble. Maybe that would seem trivial to someone with machine shop training...

Even the old Matrix I blades had runners that were slightly thinner than most MK and JW blades. So I had to be a bit careful, including the trick of reversing directions midway through. Sometimes I put thin tape on the blades. I also tried taping the tool, but it was very difficult to position the tape right, and push on it hard enough to make it stick.

Even then, I'm not sure whether whatever remained of the guide slots would be deep enough to hold the unit in alignment with the blade (I'm skeptical).  So you could end up spending >$200, just to find it doesn't work.

Are they up to $200 now? My figure skating kits were $100. They seem so simple. But I guess people charge for reasonbly accurate machining.

And, as discussed in other threads, the Pro-Filer, as with almost any tool, has its own set of pluses and minuses, its own learning curve, its own limitations to deal with and work around.  I don't think it's accurate to portray to random skaters (who are newbies to the Pro-Filer) that they can pop the unit out of the box, and, voilà, have fresh edges in 5 min or so.

I said it had a learning curve, and that I initially made mistakes. So would the Wissota, or any powered sharpener - and AFAICT, the learning curve is longer, and the mistakes may take off more metal. On top of that, there are multiple ways you could hurt yourself seriously using powered sharpening machines.

I once tried to learn how to use an old but small Blademaster sharpening machine. The person showing me, who was one of the people in charge of other people who sharpened for a rink, used amazingly poor technique. He took off most of the runner depth of a rental skate, because he kept centering the blade wrong. (It didn't occur to him to turn off the machine, use the wheel to scratch marks on the steel, and check how well they were centered - say, at least with a micrometer or calipers, if he even had one. It didn't help that they only had a bladeholder that didn't make it easy to make small changes. You had to loosen the bolts, move the blade, and try again. Every time he saw uneven edges, he used the cross-grinder to re-level the blade, and started over. I imagined him sharpening someone's $500 blades, and destroying most of the blade life in one sharpening. I decided he was not a good person to learn from. I was impressed by how heavily and solidly the machine was built, and how elegant the design for dressing the wheel was.

I talked about that with Mike Cunningham, a better skate tech, who had a fancier Blademaster. He showed me that his blade holder could easily be adjusted at each end in 1/2000" steps, by pushing buttons. He knew exactly how many times to push, to compensate for different blade widths. It also held the blade straight before sharpening. He also routinely used a micrometer for a number of things, was a Navy trained welder, had machine shop experience, and had been working on hockey and figure skating blades for over 50 years. I think all the good skate techs I've met had prior machine shop experience, and were all very mechanically inclined BEFORE they started sharpening.

While I've not seen the Wissota, I suspect the average figure skater, or hockey skater, could not learn to sharpen well on them in 5 minutes either. I certainly couldn't. When I was a rink guard, and sometimes worked the rental counter, the local pro shop sometimes trained people using the rental skates. From what I could tell, the learners often destroyed several skate blades before they were allowed to sharpen customers' blades - though to tell you the truth, I wouldn't have brought my skates to that shop for sharpenng.

It took me a fair bit of time just to figure out how to get reasonably consistent measurements out of a calipers or micrometer. (I recently bought a new micrometer that makes that easier: it has a ratchet stop, which makes it easier to apply a consistent pressure, its digital, and I can zero it at any given position. I tried all the ones in the store, and found only one whose mechanism worked perfectly, that gave monotonically increasing measurements as I increased the gap, and turned about the same between adjacent measurement points [some of the analog ones didn't, because the verneer scale wasn't molded quite right], and which returned exactly to zero if I zeroed it on a closed gap, moved it out to the widest width, and closed the gap again, and likewise for tests on other objects. I wanted to buy a cheaper one, but none of them in the store met even these basic criteria.)

I even had to learn how to feel the sharpness and straightness of an edge (especially a foil edge) without cutting myself. Maybe people with machine shop training are taught those things. But most high schools no longer offer shop courses, so it isn't reasable to expect the average hockey or figure skater to be able to figure them out quickly, no matter what tool they use.

I was shown how to sharpen using the Pro-Filer, by a very good skate techs. (I don't know why he sold them. Teaching people to sharpen, or selling them the tools, isn't good for a pro shop's business. I stopped using him to sharpen my skates after he taught me.) It took about 5 minutes to learn from him, including how to use a flat stone to polish and straighten the edge. It would have taken a lot longer without training. And he didn't bother showing me the trick of tracing the original profile, or of reversing the skate or tool midway, or of lubricating the tool or blade with oil or water to make a cleaner edge - I guess he just assumed anyone would think of that sort of thing.

I already knew how to sharpen a pocket knife, or a dive knife (I don't dive, but kayakers sometimes carry them for safety). Without that experience, it might have taken longer. I had also already learned to read verneer scales in a physics lab.

[Bill_S]

SkaterNomad -

Question: Bill profile tracing of 12 year Aces seem margin of error identical - tiny tiny shorter edge. Nearly no steel removed? Extrapolated: maybe 30-50 year blade? Am I misunderstanding? Seems excellent profile retention.

Why interest measure steel: Mechanism for trust but verify, while still honing own skill. Thinking if measure before sharpen, measure after, difference = Delta. Delta can suggest too aggressive/poor sharpener. Edge check before/after help validate edge consistency. Profile trace help identify round offs etc. Often people say butchered blades, interesting if quantify (extent, area). Perhaps misguided direction? Would be nice to have real data to support sharpener recommendation.

My Aces were only hand sharpened during the 12 years of usage. Hand sharpening = slow metal removal. The hand sharpening tool is [mostly] self centering, so no extra sharpening passes are required to get acceptably level edges. The scanned and composited illustration can be a little misleading unless viewed at 100% size. It is still remarkable life for a blade. I've set them aside now for Pattern 99 blades.

This does bring up a point to be aware of with a typical powered sharpener. Even with a "Sharpie" mark in the hollow of the blade and a nudge of the grinding wheel by hand to assess blade height/centering, you will probably spend a cutting pass or two getting level edges. This consumes blade life. Spend time with the machine turned off adjusting for center as much as possible before making actual cutting passes.

Because blades come in slightly different thicknesses, a sharpener for commercial use must be constantly adjusted to adapt to the differences. If you use your sharpener just for your own blades, then the blade height setting will probably be very, very close each time after your initial setup. You'll achieve longer blade life doing it exclusively for yourself.

Concerning measurement of blade dimensions, either a micrometer (preferred) or digital calipers (easier usage, larger span, but perhaps less accurate) will suffice. The amounts of metal removed during a good power sharpening are small, probably on the order of 0.003-0.005". It will take careful measurement technique to get meaningful information.

[tstop4me]

How can a milling machine REDUCE the thickness of a gap?

If you had access to a full precision metal shop, perhaps you could just make yourself something similar to the Pro-Filer. I.E., a block of metal with a given thickness, with a hole drilled in it, and a slot of the right thickness centered on the hole. Would that be hard to do in  a good precision shop?

I once modified a Pro-Filer that was designed for hockey blades for use with figure blades. (I ordered it on eBay, and didn't realize it was for hockey until it arrived.) I used a metal file to widen the slot, and had to be careful to maintain the centering, and another file to thin the slot depth, so it would fit my blades, which even with the old Matrix I blades, had shorter exposed runners than usual blades MK and JW made. It was a fair bit of work, and people unable or unwilling to take precise measurements might have trouble. Maybe that would seem trivial to someone with machine shop training...

Even the old Matrix I blades had runners that were slightly thinner than most MK and JW blades. So I had to be a bit careful, including the trick of reversing directions midway through. Sometimes I put thin tape on the blades. I also tried taping the tool, but it was very difficult to position the tape right, and push on it hard enough to make it stick.

Are they up to $200 now? My figure skating kits were $100. They seem so simple. But I guess people charge for reasonbly accurate machining.

It has nothing to do with the thickness of the gap.  When Paramount (and hockey blade manufacturers) talk about the width of the runner, they mean this:  Lay the skate on its side.  Now measure the distance between the interface of the chassis/runner and the edge of the runner.  This is the width of the runner.  With the skate in a normal vertical skating position, this would be the depth (or height, depending on your perspective) of the runner:  how much the edge of the runner extends below the chassis/runner interface.

Now, the guide block of the Pro-Filer slips over the sides of the runner and must be pushed down deep enough to seat the abrasive cylinder against the edges and hollow of the blade and apply pressure.  With a traditional blade with flat parallel sides, no problems.  With the Paramount and Matrix, the bottom of the guide block will hit into the chassis (which is thicker than the blade) prematurely, and the guide block cannot be properly seated to exert pressure on the abrasive cylinder against the blade.  So the bottom of the guide block needs to be trimmed so the guide block can be pushed down deeper.

The guide block has a wide body and two thinner rails (or "lips") at the bottom.  The Paramount blade is wide enough that you can just trim off the rails for sufficient clearance.  I did this by clamping the guide block in a vise, and using a large coarse file to remove most of the rails, followed by finer files and sandpaper for finishing.

The Matrix blade has an even smaller width than the Paramount (less exposed steel between the chassis/runner interface and the edge).  For adequate clearance, you would need to remove the rails and part of the wide body (which is best done with a milling machine).  Whether there would still be enough of a guide slot left for the Pro-Filer to work properly, I don't know (my guess is no).  But since I don't like Matrix blades and don't plan to buy them, it's moot for me; but obviously of concern for someone who does have Matrix.

The >$200 figure, as I explained above, includes the cost of the Pro-Filer plus my estimate of what a machinist would charge for modification of the guide block (at least $100).

[SkaterNomad]

Ok will contemplate micrometer/digital calipers.

Small anecdotal data point regarding Wissota, visa vi dangerous/ability to throw: A skate tech said he found Wissota specifically did not throw as hard as other machines he had used. Thought might be relevant specific about this unit.

Legit concerns powered machines e.g. Hole Hawg potentially twisting/snapping bulky worker arm - Yikes! Risks noted, caution will apply, brave face plastered on. Anyone reading in future, take serious caution of blade flying out and lodge into you or nearby friend - happens more care to think about with table saw, caution advised.

No expect good result after 5 minutes/5 sharpens. Sourcing old blades to practice. Need start somewhere, maybe end failure maybe cautious good result in time. Worth note may be multi-generational template/stepping stone - a reason avoiding tools from now defunct companies (for better or worse - see Notre Dame fire, expected lack of mason to fix... sad, beautiful things arts sport falling in age all "knowledge" in pocket). Also no guarrantee only Matrix or Paramount - may open doors to more blades so wanted reasonable expectation of "universal" sharpener (within hobbyist pricing).

Much appreciate all good info. Thank you all again for time. Will see how adventure goes.

[supersharp]

I would add a wheel balancing stand to the list of items you want. I'm able to get a much better surface finish now that I'm balancing my wheels on a stand instead of using balancing washers.  Kaitsu showed me his process (we both have the IE machine) and it makes a significant difference.

I love having this opportunity to discuss sharpening with others who want to go beyond the basics and get as good of a product as possible.  I'm an engineer, grew up doing a lot of hand crafts (wood carving, embroidery, light construction) and rebuilt bicycles and other items with my dad.  We took broken things apart and fixed them. It was a great introduction to how things work and why they don't. I took wood shop and metal shop classes in high school, but I don't have the really valuable machinist experience that Bill and Kaitsu have. It has been such a pleasure to learn from people with these skills. Viva Skatingforums!

[Bill_S]

Supersharp - As you say, having some mechanical skills in your background makes learning to sharpen blades easier. I know that you didn't infer this, but for the benefit of other readers, no one actually needs to be a machinist to sharpen skates. It's just careful work, not rocket science.

SkaterNomad - If you are thinking of kickback like a table saw or of a woodworking router when "climb cutting", rest assured that it just doesn't happen here. If I would let go, the holder and skate would just sit there. I'd probably grind a slight divot where I stopped moving, but I can't fathom the situation generating enough force to do move than barely nudge the holder. Perhaps if you bear down hard against the wheel, you'd feel resistance, but it doesn't take force to grind.

I use light pressure (an ounce or two?) against the grinding wheel, and move the holder with blade against the rotation of the wheel (R to L).

You'll quickly learn the feel of grinding. Light pressure and steady passes without pauses are what you will find work best. FWIW, I'd estimate that I move the holder about 1 inch/second when grinding.

[tstop4me]

I would add a wheel balancing stand to the list of items you want. I'm able to get a much better surface finish now that I'm balancing my wheels on a stand instead of using balancing washers.  Kaitsu showed me his process (we both have the IE machine) and it makes a significant difference.

Bill, could you please comment on this?  I'm fairly sure we discussed wheel balancing before, but I couldn't find the posts.  I believe you found that the Wissota wheels are well-balanced out of the box, and don't need any special balancing procedure.  Is that correct?

[Bill_S]

There's no mention of balancing in Wissota instructions, not have I done any.

That's not to say that a day may come where I'd need to do it to get good results. I'll cross that bridge when it presents itself.

[Query]

When I was thinking of dangers using powered sharpening machines I had very simple things in mind:

1. They send a shower of sparks into the air. Some powered sharpening machines do not have an eye shield, so you have to be careful where you put your face. If there was no transparent eye shield, would safety goggles be adequate?

2. If you have long hair, and don't tie it back behind you, it could get caught in any moving machinery.

3. If you have loose baggy clothing, especially extra long sleeves, a necktie, or any type of glove, same thing. I've seen warnings that gloves especially should not be used with power tools.

4. I suppose there is a risk that someone could put their finger or hand in a place where the sharpening wheel could pull it between the blade and the wheel, and create a serious injury.

5. I have seen a warning that power and circular saws, if they "bind" on wood (e.g., if the cut wood squeezes on the blade to hard, or if the weight of a circular saw causes the wood to sag much), can send the wood back at you, or at someone else who happens to be in the way, at sufficient speed to go through a body and maybe even kill. I think it's because they have a lot of power. I don't know if powered sharpening machines have that much power, or if there is a significant risk of this sort of thing. The situation is obviously different - nothing squeezes on the wheel from both sides, and most skate techs use a pretty light touch.

6. There might be a tiny risk that someone would forget to tighten whatever bolts or mechanisms hold the wheel or shaft, and they could fly away from what is supposed to hold it in place.

Am I overly worried about this things? I don't have much experience with power tools, so I don't really know. Could those of you with such experience comment?

Do any other significant dangers exist?

[Bill_S]

Much of this falls under the "common sense" category.

There is NO kickback like in saws. Light grinding is completely different and has none of that danger.

Other significant dangers? - Well, don't stand in a puddle of water when sharpening with electric tools.

Please - most of this is common sense, so it doesn't bear addressing point by point. We've become all to familiar with "lawyer labels" on consumer goods to think for ourselves.

[tstop4me]

Much of this falls under the "common sense" category.

There is NO kickback like in saws. Light grinding is completely different and has none of that danger.

Other significant dangers? - Well, don't stand in a puddle of water when sharpening with electric tools.

Please - most of this is common sense, so it doesn't bear addressing point by point. We've become all to familiar with "lawyer labels" on consumer goods to think for ourselves.

Hear! Hear!  But remember:  If components come sealed in plastic bags with packets of silica gel desiccant, don't stick your head in the plastic bags and don't ingest the packets.     [ETA:  And even though there are no warnings to the contrary, don't stick your head in the packets, and don't ingest the plastic bags, either.]

[supersharp]

The long hair comment is worth noting...I have long hair and I work with power tools regularly.  Years ago (VHS tape era) my dad taped and sent me a show where a long-haired worker had pulled her hair back but the ponytail fell forward over her shoulder and was caught in a belt grinder or something similar. The image is pretty much permanently seared in my brain. Pull your hair back and make sure it can't fall forward (easy enough to stick the ponytail under the back of your shirt). Having an intact scalp is one of life's simple pleasures.

[Kaitsu]

I would add a wheel balancing stand to the list of items you want. I'm able to get a much better surface finish now that I'm balancing my wheels on a stand instead of using balancing washers.

Wheel balancing works and improves the surface finish in every machine and every wheel on the market. What the manufacturers says about their wheels balancing can be pretty much ignored. Example Blademaster 3" wheels are sold as a weight balanced. Still I can feel and see that they are way out of balance. Wheel weight is about 66 grams and to get them on balance requires typically about 1 gram additional mass when it is new. When the wheel gets smaller, also weight balance changes and balancing need to be redone. 1 gr unbalance sounds extremely small, but I can guarantee that you can feel and hear the difference between balanced and non-balanced wheel https://youtu.be/Zqh8rVBGG8A

What you need to remember on Wissota is that balancing stand is probably much more expensive than for 3" wheels. 7" wheel and its mass is probably too much for magnetic balancers. Wissota users might need something like this https://www.exportersindia.com/product-detail/cast-iron-wheel-balancing-stand-5773214.htm

[Bill_S]

Balancing will help up to the limit determined by the coarseness of the grinding wheel. Problems with unbalanced wheels can be mitigated through machine design that reduces the propagation of unbalanced forces, i.e., increased mass to decrease cyclic displacement by a dynamic force, bearing precision and size, and machine material / geometry.

I did an experiment this morning to see if I could detect the affects of my off-the-shelf grinding wheel that has had no balancing steps performed by me. I do not know if the wheel has been factory balanced when manufactured.

I mounted a dial indicator onto a separate stand placed beside the sharpener, and positioned the probe against the side of the cast iron table. This is the plane that you would expect unbalanced wheels to perturb the most. I zeroed the indicator after positioning it. [Click to enlarge]



I started the machine and watched the needle on the dial indicator for any cyclic displacement. It indicated no motion and the needle was dead steady.

Here's a link to a 3.5MB video of the dial indicator up-close while the machine was running. It confirms that stock grinding wheel vibrations are not perturbing the table to a degree that can be measured by my equipment.

https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/wissota_balance_dial_indicator-1.m4v

I believe that I benefit from the large and heavy section cast iron table/motor clamp plus the hefty 1/2" diameter shaft. The dressing diamond and supporting structure is also motor-mounted which would be an advantage for not "dressing-in" any vibration-caused runout.

This is a photo made at wheel-height so that the sheer size of the castings, mounted directly to the motor, can be appreciated. Click to enlarge.



If I detect vibrations from an unbalanced wheel in the future either by feel or by seeing any emerging blade finish issues, I can dynamically (not just statically!) balance the wheel using the dial indicator.