Wissota powered skate sharpener review

[MCsAngel2]

You are correct. However measuring blade thickness and setting height gets you close, but not to perfection every time. A look at the gauge tells you how far you are off your are from your estimate for level edges, so you can tweak the height when you get close. That's what I meant by that sentence, not in the context of adjusting the holder to get rid of the whole amount in this case..

Beside that particular use of the tool, it's enlightening to quantify how far things are off.

One more thing - a photo that I didn't include in the previous post shows how rough the previous sharpening was, with recurring chatter marks. I easily beat its surface finish.

Edit: I decided that I'd include the photo anyway. After all, this is the definition of a bad sharpening from a hockey-oriented rink.

OT: I happened to be scrolling through Bill's post history because I was looking for a post about the MK Pro vs Coro Ace, and went by this picture....

.....and I'm swearing because my blades have chatter marks just like this. Don't remember if I had them after the first sharpening but they do now after second sharpening mid October. I've skated 4 times since then, but last night was the first time I noticed that if I was going somewhat slowly (but not super slow), I had a strange sensation like I was skating over ruts. Not an issue when skating at normal speed, especially given my low level, but I guess I won't be defending my skate tech anymore. 

ETA: and I used a ruler to simulate an edge tester like Bill's gadget, and yep, they're uneven.

[Bill_S]

Time to buy your own sharpener! 

[MCsAngel2]

Time to buy your own sharpener! 

You know if it wasn't so difficult to learn how to sharpen, if the learning curve wasn't so steep, that more people WOULD do their own. Even with the cost of the equipment.

[Papa Bravo]

Hey. Sorry to bring up an old thread.  Just a question for all with a wissota.  Have you ever tried stones that aren't from wissota?  I've tried a few and they are a hit and miss, definitely not balanced.  I live in Canada so getting wissota stones cost a lot more, but I am thinking they are way better quality?  Just looking for some feedback.

P

Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk

[Bill_S]

I've used only Wissota wheel stones in my sharpener. Sorry that I can't comment about the possibility of using other vendors.

Being a small outfit, I'm fairly confident that Wissota doesn't make their own stones in-house, but I don't know who their vendor is.  Both the pink and the blue stones (hockey and figure) have "Made in Mexico" on them as the sole clue.

Perhaps you've already done this, but could you call Wissota to see if there is a Canadian distributor? That might cost less than having them shipped from the USA.

[Kaitsu]

Now, compared to the Pro-Filer, this machine:
2) Is much faster => Screw-ups can happen in a blink compared to the slow grind of the Pro-Filer
8] I get to buy more blades over the years because it has more aggressive metal removal  [That was a joke, with an element of truth to it!]

Frankly, part of the reason I purchased the machine is because the local rink put up a sign stating that they will no longer sharpen figure skates.

Bill,
These all are true. Be careful in the frontal area of blade with your big wheel machine. I am not sure if you have ever read Sid Broadbent´s Skateology manual, but there Sid warns about the big wheel machines. Large wheel ensures high cutting speed, which typically ensures nice surface finish (if wheel is in balance, bearings are OK and wheel is dressed enough often). But as you said, it means also faster material removal. You will easily make hump behind the toepicks and erosion at the blade most important area is typically faster. What happens in hockey skates, happens also in figure skates. If you look this video https://youtu.be/8msCWpgY9BI you can see how blade profile has changed remarkably. When such a erosion happens in figure skate blades frontal area, it is not good thing at all.

Those whom says that non-skateable zone profile is not important, has not figured out yet that this area is actually partly used even it looks like you cannot skate with it. 

Quite many rink sharpeners sharpens mainly hockey skates and they use large wheel machines. When they are not so used to sharpen figure skates, they may think figure skates take too much time and in the end they just get complains from the figure skaters that they have ruined skaters expensive blades. This surely reduces motivation to sharpen figure skates. Most likely this is reason why they say, thanks, but no thanks. Earning money is much more easier with hockey skates.

[Query]

What happens in hockey skates, happens also in figure skates.

I think Bill is careful enough to monitor his profile. He has purchased a device and designed jigs that help him measure it.

A typical complaint for hockey skaters, as in this video, is that poor skate techs tend to even out the rocker radius, reducing the difference between the relatively flat center, and the highly curved ends.

While there is a similar complaint for figure skaters, in that poor skate techs tend to blur together the main rocker radius with the spin rocker radius (or radii), a complaint that is shared by some hockey goalies, there is also a widespread complaint among figure skaters and hockey goalies, that poor skate techs tend to round off the ends, as though they were hockey blades, or maybe even accidentally trim figure skate toe picks when not needed. (BTW, there are times when trimming the toe pick slightly is a good thing, to try to maintain the same relationship between the many-times rockered area and the toe pick. And some school figures people remove it completely.)

This is why I have advocated tracing, or even photocopying the new blade (when that is practical), so you can compare its profile to what it is now, and fix that. But you also need to recognize that most pro shops and many mail order companies that do handle figure skating blades do an initial sharpening themselves before they sell the blade (especially with MK and Wilson blades, which many people claim not to have reliable factory profiles or good factory edges), to give it the profile and edges THEY think they should have - unless you explicitly request they do otherwise.

I have an old Skateology manual which seemed to imply that the "non-skating zone" isn't important - in fact it is possible Broadbent introduced that term. I think it may matter most to skaters who jump, but I believe it affects those of us who don't much too, because the blade sinks a little into the ice. I have used a pencil on the bottom of the blade, and noticed that when I skate, the graphite in that zone comes off too, though I admit that isn't complete proof. I do notice that Ultima Matrix blades (the old style Matrix 1 that I still have) come from the factory extremely sharp, with a hollow essentially all the way up to the toe pick, so they at least believed it matters.

Based on simple geometry, rather than much experience with powered sharpening machines, I believe it is hard to maintain the hollow in that zone on powered machines, precisely because the wheel diameter is so large, as you note. It is easier on the Pro-Filer. It is even easier on the old Berghman sharpeners (because you can see what you are doing, and place the stone at the end of the holder) - especially if you replace the old crumbly stone with a Pro-Filer stone.

A powered "cross-grinder" can come very close to the toe pick - but if not used carefully, it creates asymetric edges. In addition, cross-grinders typically have very coarse grit, and the current wheel diameter determines the hollow radius, so can not be adjusted.

[supersharp]

I have an old Skateology manual which seemed to imply that the "non-skating zone" isn't important - in fact it is possible Broadbent introduced that term. I think it may matter most to skaters who jump, but I believe it affects those of us who don't much too, because the blade sinks a little into the ice. I have used a pencil on the bottom of the blade, and noticed that when I skate, the graphite in that zone comes off too, though I admit that isn't complete proof. I do notice that Ultima Matrix blades (the old style Matrix 1 that I still have) come from the factory extremely sharp, with a hollow essentially all the way up to the toe pick, so they at least believed it matters.

Not about Wissota, but I think this is on topic.  Let me know if this should go elsewhere...I'm still in the low single-digit GOE category

I had a guy tell me I was "sharpening too close to the toe pick" when I first started sharpening.  This was a skate tech from Fairbanks that sharpened a pair of skates that I had previously sharpened while we were there for a camp.  I found that really confusing.  How can you sharpen too close to the toe pick?  What harm could it possibly do, as long as you don't hit the toe pick itself?  Anyone have an idea on this?  Am I missing something?

So I did some experimenting the next time I got new blades and left the non-skateable zone (NSZ) unsharpened and then tried the blades.  It was very limiting, I felt.  I would have a glitchy moment going into a scratch spin because the edge angle changes from acute to 90 degrees as tip forward (yes, that's really far forward, but you do go there when you "hook" into a 3...and this is not a technique thread, haha).  Also, the unsharpened area was much rougher than the sharpened area.  Waltz jump takeoffs felt terrible and there was a feeling of not-grabbing-fast-enough when rolling off the toe pick at the landing.  I'm sure if I had always had skates with an unsharpened NSZ, I would have thought this all felt normal, but I did not like it at all.  My takeaway from this is that the blade sinks into the ice a bit, which puts you forward of the contact point you see on a flat surface, and if you are solidly over one edge, you will get farther forward than if you are on a flat, because you sink deeper into the ice...so yes, there is a NSZ but it's farther forward than what you see when you assess the blade on a non-deforming surface.

I have also had skaters who purchased skates while at a summer camp or out of town visiting family who come back with an unsharpened NSZ. The older kids and adults tend to notice that there is something they don't like about the new blade and bring it to me to see what's up, so I show them the unsharpened NSZ and explain that rolling from a sharpened edge to that rough 90-degree surface is what they are feeling.    I'll admit that some of the younger kids are not very aware, so I usually discover it when they are ready for their next sharpening. I don't say anything, but I just sharpen as usual because they are accustomed to having that area sharpened on their old blades.  However, I have had even 7-yr-olds say that the skates feel much better now, that they felt "weird" before.  Since it's an isolated town (trapped in the fjords...glaciers behind us, ocean in front) and I sharpen all of the higher-end figure skates, sharpening up to about 3/8"-ish from the pick is de facto the norm around here.  I have the ICE machine designed by Broadbent, so the wheel allows me to get that close.  Toe pick geometry dictates how close I can comfortably get.

[Bill_S]

Good discussion about the non-skating zone (NSZ). I can tie this back to the Wissota sharpener because I did a little research into how well the 7" wheel of a Wissota could reach into the NSZ of Coronation Aces. I was skating on them a the time, and I was concerned about how well it would reach into the area. I created a to-scale illustration of the difference in the Wissota vs. Blademaster 3" wheels around the NSZ...

.

It was drawn in a vector program and I can change the heavy "art" lines to finer versions, and zoom in for a very close peek and make some accurate estimates. The 3" and the 7" wheels were surprisingly close, and both sharpened well into the NSZ. Of course, your Broadbent machine is much better than either of these, but I didn't feel a skating issue on my own skates using the 7" grinding wheel on Aces, Gold Seals, Eclipse dance blades, or Pattern 99s. I might have skated on some others while trying out different blades in the fall of '19, but can't recall them right now.

I had been used to skating on a very tiny unsharpened area between pick and NSZ contact point (flat surface) when using the Profiler hand sharpener as you can see in this photo...



You can spot a little Dychem Blue on either edge close to the toe pick where I didn't spend excessive time trying for a sharp edge there. I was changing my ROH at the time (more experiments!), and it was an hours-long process doing it by hand. Even though I didn't get a sharp edge all the way to the toe pick,  you can tell that it is a lot closer than a grinding wheel can get. After switching to the Wissota, I couldn't detect any difference in skating feel attributable to reach into the NSZ.

[Bill_S]

Just as a point of reference, this is what I achieve with the Wissota. Shown is a 10-1/4" Gold Seal blade. The beginning of the sharpened area is well within the NSZ produced by the blade touching the drag pick on a flat surface. The 7" wheel can't reach as close to the pick as the Profiler (or your ICE sharpener), but I didn't detect any issue when skating. I concluded that it was not a problem.



To sharpen this close to the pick, I do attach the pick protectors mentioned earlier in this thread.

[Query]

For sharpening with hand tool, I just use cloth athletic tape instead of a "pick protector", and try to be careful.

I'm not all that certain that frequent NSZ sharpening is needed. I don't do it as often as the rest of the blade - because I think I don't wear down that part of the edges much.

And I've noticed certain pro shops never worry about it, but just stay far away from the toe pick. I guess that is better than going too close and trimming it by accident!

But I guess that wouldn't be enough to stop a powered sharpening machine, like the Wissota, from grinding off the tape and a bit of the toe pick - right?

I assume you haven't tried to create a jig to follow rocker-bar type guides, or something involving adjustable screws to set the rocker radius? In other words, you guide the skate against the blade by hand, and try to be uniform in how much metal you take off?

How would you design such a jig?

I though of making my own rocker bars on a 3D printer, but the 3D printers I can get free (e.g., at public libraries) or cheap access to have about 1 or 2 mm consistency - not great.

[Bill_S]

For sharpening with hand tool, I just use cloth athletic tape instead of a "pick protector", and try to be careful.
...
But I guess that wouldn't be enough to stop a powered sharpening machine, like the Wissota, from grinding off the tape and a bit of the toe pick - right?

At most, it would buy you a split second to react. Worse, soft gummy material would foul the grinding wheel, necessitating a re-dress.

I don't intend to get into rocker re-shaping using templates even though I dreamed about it. If my basement shop were large enough to hold more machinery (mill and lathe), and I were younger, then I might pursue it. I'm no stranger to machine design...



(I wish that I still had the youthful vigor that I had in this early 80s photo.)

[supersharp]

Love the 80s photo!

Great details, Bill, thanks. It looks to me like your machine gets close enough that it doesn't affect your skating. A lot of blades come with a full inch unsharpened at the front, probably just to be safe regarding the toe pick.   Factory sharpenings are notoriously poor anyway, they're just a starting point. I see a lot of new blades come in where the edges are off by the same amount on both blades, relative to how they run through the sharpener, such as low in LI and RO.  Still, having some sort of radius to start from saves grinding time.  A a skate tech that just follows the factory pattern will leave that whole area unsharpened and sometimes doesn't even level out the edges (gasp!).

SkateScience blades come completely flat, so it takes forever on the first sharpening. But then I know that I have the actual design profile, and anything that is or isn't right is my doing.

Query—I agree that once you have shaped the NSZ so it has a radius, it doesn't really need to be sharp. It mostly needs to be shaped so that it has enough of a hollow to be a natural continuation along that rocker profile.

I have never used a ProFiler, I will have to look at how that works. Tape would definitely tear right off and gunk up the wheel on a powered sharpener. 

I have less machining experience than Bill and my shop is small (it's the dry lab for my engineering business) so I don't try to machine to a profile pattern. I think I started sharpening in 2007, I'd have to look back in my sharpening logs to see. I know I'm able to pay attention to far more detail now than I was when I started, but I've always tried to maintain the original profile as best I can. The guy that taught me to sharpen never mentioned this, and actually he told me some things that I could see early on were problematic (if only the front is off level, just shape the front and lift away from the wheel where it's already level...). If you don't take a layer off the whole length, your profile is going to change on every sharpening and who knows what you have?  If it's a rec blade with zero subtlety, okay (maybe), but for a $450 blade that you chose for its shape? 

It's a tremendous relief for me to have discovered a forum for people who can discuss these things.  Have any of you bought products from PBHE?  I'm considering their "blade root honing tool". 

http://precisionblade.com/index.php/product-catalogue/

[Bill_S]

I haven't purchased anything from them but have borrowed some ideas. The honing tool you linked was mentioned in an earlier thread when I was casting about for power blade sharpening equipment. I had used a Profiler hand sharpener from 2000-2019. It's a well-made unit, works well, but is of course slow. That's an advantage though when you want maximum blade life. I used in on a pair of Coronation Aces from 2007-2019 (12 years!) and they still had life remaining.

Here's a pair of tracings brought into Photoshop and aligned. The new condition is in black pencil, the condition 12 years later is shown in red. Click to enlarge.



The Profiler is available in just two radii - 3/8" and 1/2". They advertise a unit with the common 7/16" radii, but it is just a 3/8" unit. When questioned about this, the owner said that there was hardly any difference between 3/8" and 7/16" so they just sell the same hardware. That felt a bit misleading even though he's right.

You can get uneven edges with the Profiler if technique is poor. I made a jig a couple years back to hold my skates so that I had a bit better control over Profiler usage. It's shown in this thread...

http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8371.0

[Papa Bravo]

I've used only Wissota wheel stones in my sharpener. Sorry that I can't comment about the possibility of using other vendors.

Being a small outfit, I'm fairly confident that Wissota doesn't make their own stones in-house, but I don't know who their vendor is.  Both the pink and the blue stones (hockey and figure) have "Made in Mexico" on them as the sole clue.

Perhaps you've already done this, but could you call Wissota to see if there is a Canadian distributor? That might cost less than having them shipped from the USA.

Hey thanks for the response. I just ordered a few from wissota.  I did reach out to them and they simply said no.... Such a shame because after shipping each wissota stone cost me $55 US.

The aftermarket distributor I used is confident they had a bad batch.  These say made in Mexico as well... He is shipping me new ones for free when the new batch comes in and I will try them out.

Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk

[Bill_S]

The high cost because of shipping is unfortunate. You also get hit because of the exchange rate.

Despite the fact that your third-party wheel stones are the likely cause of unbalance, be sure to also check the clamp bolt that holds the motor assembly to the table. If that's a bit loose, it will amplify unbalance in the grinding wheel.

[Kaitsu]

Bill,
When I was purchasing my first sharpening machine with 6" wheel, I made very similar research (sketches) as you have made. I was focusing heavily in to area which you cannot grind without cross grinder. I could not understand why more skilled skate techs says that big wheel machines are not so optimal for figure skates. Most of the time I was focusing to wrong side of wheel. What you should focus is the area between the touch point and where hollow starts. Area which remains ungrinded, is just kind of indicator which visualizes the issue more easily than seeing the erosion in the blade profile.

I agree that there is no significant difference where is hollow starts. I mean small wheel vs large wheel. Does the hollow start from 0.5" or 0.7" from the toe pics is not the actual problem. I assume you start grinding from the front, near of toe pics and from there you swipe to heel direction. Starting point is that which causes that you will easily remove more material even you believe to remove same amount material all over the blade. Typically you cannot see remarkable change in short term, but most likely you will see the erosion in some stage. When you have used couple years big wheel machine and couple years small wheel machine, its easier to understand the benefits of small wheel machine. Starting from the behind of toe picks is so much easier with small wheel machine.

Attached you can see example picture from the Gold Seal blades which has been sharpened ones with Wissota. Company which made them says that they are specialized to figure skates sharpening and they have sharpened figure skates more than 20 years. At least based on their marketing words, they are very skilled. Either they are not as skilled as they say or problem comes from the machine. I think both options are valid, but audience has freedom to choose their own opinion.

I have examples also from the other skate techs whom uses small wheel machines. They witness that small wheel machine is not any highway to happiness but it definitely makes sharpening of figure skates a bit more easier.

[FigureSpins]

Bill and I have had this discussion privately.  That dead zone behind the toe pick is noticeable to me because I demonstrate a lot of things slowly to students. 
When you are working in slow motion, the blade skitters sideways after the toepick sinks into the ice, but before you roll down to the rocker or blade edge

I think most sharpeners only think about jumps, where skaters shift quickly to/from the toe rake.
Basic spins use the toepick to start the maneuver and then shift only to the rocker.  (Think of a backspin from a pivot start)
A skater just learning a one-foot turn will often roll all the way up to the toepick, only to lose their grip on the ice as they roll back down through that dead zone.

Just a personal perspective.

[Bill_S]

As Figure Spins knows, one advantage of the Pro-Filer hand-held unit is its slow sharpening speed and its ability to sharpen as close to the pick as you want. It just takes patience. You still have to ensure level edges though. Here's a shot of a Pro-Filer getting cozy with portion of the blade just in front of the pick...



That hand-held sharpener has a lot going for it.

Kaitsu - Do you use an Incredible Edger? If so, what is the diameter of a fresh grinding wheel for it? I know that the motor RPM for that machine was measured running to be about 1780 RPM when driving a wheel not under sharpening load. That equates to a grinding wheel RPM of around 6100 RPM because of the belt drive ratio. I'm curious about the grinding surface speed produced by the wheel at that RPM.

Estimating from photos, I approximated that the Incredible Edger has a wheel about 3" diameter. A 3" wheel on an Incredible Edger would produce a grinding wheel speed of around 80 ft/second where it touches the blade.

FWIW, my Wissota motor is rated 3450 RPM unloaded. The grinding wheel is mounted directly to its shaft. A new 7" wheel is 1.83 feet in circumference, and a worn-down wheel at 5" diameter is 1.31 feet around. Resulting grinding speeds are:
7": (1.83 ft/rev x 3450 rev/min) / (60 seconds/min) = 105 ft/second
5": (1.31 ft/rev x 3450 rev/min) / (60 seconds/min) = 75 ft/second



BTW, what grit is the Incredible Edger's grinding wheel? That can make a difference too. I use the fine 100-grit wheel marketed for carbon-steel figure blades, and not the more aggressive (pink) wheel typically sold with it.

Note that I often finish a sharpening using sharpening wax. Following instructions for using it, I start the grind going in the same direction as the wheel. (Think of a "climb cut" on a router bit in woodworking.) Because un-clamping and re-clamping can affect level edges, I start sharpening at the tail for passes with wax. The brass toe pick protector is the last thing to touch the wheel on that pass. The geometry of the protector causes the blade to lift away from the grind stone at the end of the pass.

[Query]

Do big wheels have advantages too?

Aside from the fact that they have more surface to wear out, so I assume they don't need to be changed as often.

E.g., can the wheel get so hot that it stops working right?

Speculations:

I read something that was about extremely sharp sharpening (e.g.,  razors). If I understand right, abrasives that aren't hard enough to reshape the carbide inclusions in hardened steel (like diamond dust, and a few other abrasives), that give steel its hardness (including resistance to bending the edge), must instead pull the inclusions out of the steel, making it soft (sometimes dealt with by stoning the edge, to completely remove a sharpening burr of softened steel), or push them further into the steel, making the steel at the edge extra hard and brittle (also sometimes dealt with by stoning the edge).

Straight razors are often sharpened with the aid of particular types of jewelers rouge that contains diamond dust or another very hard material, which CAN reshape the carbide inclusions.

Obviously, razors are different. Whereas the edge angle in skates is only a little less than 90 degrees, razors have a very narrow edge angle, and hair cutting was claimed to work best if the tip of the edge is narrower (sub-micron) than the size of those carbide inclusions (which can be up to several microns wide). Whereas the edge on an ice skate only has to penetrate a little into the ice (which is much softer than hair at a microscopic level) to prevent sideways slippage.

Perhaps skate sharpening wheels can't be made with super-hard abrasives, because they have to be dressed with a diamond point to the desired ROH. (Or is that wrong? Perhaps only the resin, that the abrasive is embedded in, is ground away, when you dress a wheel.) Do you think that that the hardness of the abrasive has a significant effect on skate blade edges? I.E., if you used a super-hard abrasive, could the edge be any better, from a skating perspective?

[Bill_S]

Do big wheels have advantages too?

You mentioned life, which will include the ability to retain the dressed shape longer during sharpening. You also have basic geometry working for you. Larger diameters are less likely to produce a "divot" along the rocker as a result of improper technique. In practice, the grinding wheel diameter differences we are talking about probably don't matter when using good technique. Having said that, I'm sure that there's a practical lower limit. For example, I wouldn't want to try sharpening with a Dremel wheel or I'd have a wavy rocker.

I've never experienced the wheels of good grinding machines getting hot. For example, when I use a bench grinder to sharpen a mower blade, it is easy to get red-hot metal at the edge as it passes by the coarse cutting wheel. Sharpening mower blades not a delicate operation. Significant pressure, coarse grits, and multiple passes are involved to remove 1/16th inch from the cutting edge to eliminate divots left by gravel impacts. After a while, the metal becomes too hot to hold, but the wheel is barely above room temperature. With mild steel mower blades, there's no temper loss to worry about. Just press in, grind on, and get it done. But the grinding wheel stays cool regardless.

The case of the very light touch, fine grit, and few passes when sharpening skate blades is even better at keeping a wheel cool. More importantly, those factors keep the metal blade from overheating. The wheel itself will barely be above room temperature after sharpening a pair of blades.

As an experiment this morning, I went into the shop and fired up the aggressive bench grinder. I ground away at some angle iron for 30-seconds, making lots of sparks. The metal got very hot as expected. Any temperature change in the wheel was undetectable to touch. I attempted to quantify temperatures with a thermocouple for you, but the readings would have been inaccurate for various reasons.

I'm not going to go into the other speculations offered because I'm not an expert on abrasive theory, practice, or production.

[Kaitsu]

Now a days I use incredible Edger. It uses same wheel size as Blademaster machines which uses 3" wheels. See https://blademaster.com/web/en/2585-finishing-wheels-3-inch
Sid sells wheels in three different coarseness. Fine, medium and coarse. I have never used coarse wheel, which I have only one. Medium wheels I have just tried ones. At least fine wheels are sold in two different color, but Sid has not specified more detail level their differences. White wheels are aluminum oxide wheels which are quite soft. In some cheap stainless steel blades you cannot even make one pass when wheel has bigger hollow than the blade. In such a cases I have used Blademaster 120 grit ruby wheel, which are much more harder.

I have asked from Sid about his fine wheel grit specification and he replied following."Quality of finish equal to any regular 120 grade wheel from elsewhere from our experience"

Party I can agree what Sid says. According to my experience the way how you dress the wheel and how often you dress it has major impact to the surface finish. Attached one example. In the right hand and left hand side can see sharpening which has been made by figure skate retailer with long experience. They use incredible Edger, just like me. In the middle you can see same skate after my grinding. Lesson learned: If you try to save in wheel costs, it can be seen in the quality.

With the wax you may improve the surface finish, but the problem is that wax ingress quite deeply in to the wheel. To get rid of wax, you need to dress quite a lot away from the wheel.

Blademaster promotes that their 3" wheels are weight balanced, but truth is that Sid´s wheel are better in balance even they are not sold as a weight balanced. See videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDBOZ_SYOjc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqh8rVBGG8A&t=86s

In Ingredible edger you can use wheels up to 2 inch size. As I am living in country where we have 50Hz electrical network, I am loosing 20% of the speed compared to 60Hz network. This is easy to notice when wheel starts to be in the end of its lifetime. Velocity speed start to be clearly too low. To fix this speed issue, I have planned to apply frequency converter. I already have it, but its not wired yet. Measured speed from the wheel is ~4980rpm.

See also pictures:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x7ha5mdp69h5f93/20210207_075826.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cxirnhq87cn2d89/20210207_080149.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k37w1ow7gyvilnh/Before%20and%20after.jpg?dl=0


Coming back to topic, how close from the toepicks sharpening should start, see this video. Pay attention how far the cross grinding goes when Bruce has finished the blade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69tWd_K5iBI

[Bill_S]

You get a very nice finish compared to the other two sharpeners. Great job!

I don't have the ability to cross grind down to the toe pick like the Incredible Edger can do. We agree that sharpening should start inside the length that doesn't touch when a toe pick hits. I do get well inside of it, so the real question is "How close is needed?"  That would require doing on-ice tests. In my own skating, I haven't detected any difference between a Pro-Filer that sharpens right up to the pick and my Wissota machine sharpening. It's possible that another skater, or different blades (worn vs. new), would make a difference.

I do have a lot of respect for the Incredible Edger machine. It's well thought out, and I'd have one if I had the space and the finances for it.

I did note in the video that the grinding wheel rotation is opposite that of the Wissota. I find that curious. I generally mount the blade as shown in the video you linked (toe pick to the left), and make passes going from right to left as shown, but my wheel is turning the opposite direction. In either the Wissota or I.E. case, the blade could be mounted in reverse and passes made in the other direction if desired.

[supersharp]

Now a days I use incredible Edger. It uses same wheel size as Blademaster machines which uses 3" wheels. See https://blademaster.com/web/en/2585-finishing-wheels-3-inch
Sid sells wheels in three different coarseness. Fine, medium and coarse. I have never used coarse wheel, which I have only one. Medium wheels I have just tried ones. At least fine wheels are sold in two different color, but Sid has not specified more detail level their differences. White wheels are aluminum oxide wheels which are quite soft. In some cheap stainless steel blades you cannot even make one pass when wheel has bigger hollow than the blade. In such a cases I have used Blademaster 120 grit ruby wheel, which are much more harder.

I have asked from Sid about his fine wheel grit specification and he replied following."Quality of finish equal to any regular 120 grade wheel from elsewhere from our experience"

Party I can agree what Sid says. According to my experience the way how you dress the wheel and how often you dress it has major impact to the surface finish. Attached one example. In the right hand and left hand side can see sharpening which has been made by figure skate retailer with long experience. They use incredible Edger, just like me. In the middle you can see same skate after my grinding. Lesson learned: If you try to save in wheel costs, it can be seen in the quality.

With the wax you may improve the surface finish, but the problem is that wax ingress quite deeply in to the wheel. To get rid of wax, you need to dress quite a lot away from the wheel.

Blademaster promotes that their 3" wheels are weight balanced, but truth is that Sid´s wheel are better in balance even they are not sold as a weight balanced. See videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDBOZ_SYOjc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqh8rVBGG8A&t=86s

In Ingredible edger you can use wheels up to 2 inch size. As I am living in country where we have 50Hz electrical network, I am loosing 20% of the speed compared to 60Hz network. This is easy to notice when wheel starts to be in the end of its lifetime. Velocity speed start to be clearly too low. To fix this speed issue, I have planned to apply frequency converter. I already have it, but its not wired yet. Measured speed from the wheel is ~4980rpm.

See also pictures:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x7ha5mdp69h5f93/20210207_075826.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cxirnhq87cn2d89/20210207_080149.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k37w1ow7gyvilnh/Before%20and%20after.jpg?dl=0


Coming back to topic, how close from the toepicks sharpening should start, see this video. Pay attention how far the cross grinding goes when Bruce has finished the blade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69tWd_K5iBI

Gorgeous finish on that blade, Kaitsu!

I also use the Incredible Edger.  I inherited the old style Broadbent machine back in 2007 (and the duty of sharpening all local figure skaters), and finally upgraded to the modern version last August. I really like the upgrade, no curvature bias from the radius of the blade (the old machine had a single bar and one set of rollers, so that as you ran along the single bar, the blade radius changed the distance between the wheel and the holder, slightly tilting the blade at the center). I had developed a technique to overcome most of the curvature bias on the old machine (turning the eccentric adjustment as the blade ran along)  but it was definitely an art.  I did have a real bond to the old setup and was able to feel the amount of radial shift and adjust relative to it, but it was mentally taxing. After 5 pair of skates, I would have to stop or I'd start to get less accuracy.  That's as many as I want to deal with in one day anyway, so not a big deal.

I've been using the new white fine wheels and they produce a good result but seem to also produce a lot more dust than the old wheels. 

I feel like I can pay more exact attention to other things now that I don't have to compensate for the curvature bias, but still occasionally get mixed up on adjusting the left eccentric knob because the rotation is reversed compared to the old machine. The old system was CCW to raise, CW to lower the carrier.  I think the new system is more intuitive, having each knob move toward the center to go up and away to go down, but I have 13 years of doing the opposite movement built into my left hand...and the device has the same shape and feel...so I still have to think twice after adjusting before I start grinding.  Always learning something new.  I've been impressed at how true the CL of the radius was on each pair of blades when I made the transition to the new machine, but it just goes to show how attuned we can become.  It's not just running a machine, it's a relationship that we develop that can transcend the expected limitations.  In both ourselves and the equipment.

[Kaitsu]

For the question "How close is needed?" I do not have any clear answer. I would say that it depends on the blade profile and how much material has been already removed. When you have sharpened enough many skate pairs, you will notice that some blades does not have basically NSZ at all. Example some Quest blades does have such a profile that I cannot understand why they are like they are. In those blades I would say that you need to get very close to toe picks.

I am confident that Wissota´s wheel size in not an issue in means if hollow starts enough close to the toe picks. Problems is that if you start sharpening from toe picks side, its not so easy to get smooth transient grinding to starting point. You easily remove too much material and then you have hump behind the topics. See attachments. I would say that risk for hump can be reduced by starting the grinding from the tail. There you can enter to the blade almost parallel, unlikely than if you would start from the behind of toe picks. You just need to be very skilled or use toe pick protector or elsewhere you easily destroy toe pick.

If you are interested to see sharpener which can grind all the way until to toe picks, see this video. Unfortunately video with English subtitles has been removed. It is interesting that grinding traces are in "wrong" direction and only edges are "polished" with freehand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l14Y0XGMYUE

For those whom does not know the difference between "old" and "new" type of Incredible Edger, you can see the difference in these videos

Old type:
https://youtu.be/J4XNZWv4aIA
https://youtu.be/mUFvSeA5oeM

New type:
https://youtu.be/XbNxYIlWIuY

I have never thought about the issue what supersharp mentioned about the old type of IE. Due the blade profile you truly need to tilt skate holder differently in the tail than in frontal area, which means that also blade "height" changes. Basically same phenomena could be seen in new type of IE if the transversal guide rods would not be in 90 degrees angle to the longitudinal guide rods. Thanks for supersharp about raising this topic.

Query was asking if anyone has ordered Root honing tools from http://precisionblade.com/ I do have 3 of them, all with different radius. Personally I didn't like them...like many of other things what I have tried / purchased during the years. H.D.I gauge has been most expensive decor item what have. These are of course personal opinions. Problem in Brian´s honing tool is that I didn't have enough patient to learn how to adjust those brass screws so that honing cylinder would parallel in blade. Both tools, Root hone and profiler requires that you have some kind of bench where to mount the skate so that you can push the tool against the blade. Still I am not confident that tool would travel parallel. Some people use masking tape when they use Profiler. It reduces the cap between blade and tool and in that way ensure that tools travels more parallel.

I have tried also SkateMate, but I don´t even dare to say what I think about that tool.