Breaking in boots, continued - question about insoles

[rd350]

Insole update + your thoughts?

So I really spent some time skating with the Soles insoles that have more arch support (my arch is neutral - slight supination) today and although I wasn't cramping immediately, it came on by about 10-15 minutes and then I cramped in both arches.  I don't think I ever really cramp on the left (either in these new, or my old boots).  The Sole insoles have a layer of thinsulate on the underside and I have to say I was considerably warmer.  I switched back to the yellow superfeet at ice cut and they actually felt a lot better and I went back to only cramping on the right (I think it was less than with the Soles but can't remember for sure) but I got numb and freezing quite quickly.

It's a little confusing. I would think I'd get numb quicker in the Soles since they take up more room in the skate.  However, when I put the yellow superfeet back in I had already been numb from skating and I do know they get numb faster after I've already been on the ice and gone numb once, even if I've rested with my boots off for 10 minutes.

I'm pretty frustrated right now.  I still only have about 20 hours on ice in the Harlicks.  I e-mailed my fitter.  I'm hesitant to send the boots back to have the tongue softened because I'm not sure that this is why I am getting numb.  How do you know for sure what's causing what?

And the cold issue.  I find it hard to believe new Harlicks have less insulation than 20+ year old Reidell Royals.  I only ever got cold in those if I was standing around too long chatting, not while skating and moving.

Any thoughts?  Suggestions?  I'm getting a bit frustrated here.  TIA!

[Neverdull44]

What the podiatrist told me is that the cramping was lactic acid building up in my foot because the muscles were overworking to compensate (for not being seated right at the bottom).     

I "almost" never cramp in my custom orthotics.  I did mildly cramp the other day, when I was working on a new entrance to a loop jump (double outside edges).  My feet were not relaxed, and I was straining to do the jump.  But other than that, I am pretty comfortable.

Does Harlick make a custom molded footbed?  Can they change the arch?  Don't put up with the pain. Worse things could happen . . . . like my protruding navicular bone now, that, to remove, involves surgery and down time.   Get the fitter & a podiatrist involved.

[Doubletoe]

I love my Sole insoles.  Is there any chance your new boots are just a little too narrow for you?  I have a high instep and my feet are a little wide in the front and every time I've gotten boots that were a tad too narrow in the mid and forefoot, my feet have cramped and/or circulation to the toes has gotten cut off.  As soon as I got boots that were 1/2 width wider, I had no cramping problems, even in my first week in them.

[rd350]

Yeah I e-mailed the fitter and am going to see him.  Having a little issue with my car at the moment but hopefully will resolve quickly and can drive out there as soon as he has time.

I also e-mailed my Sports Med doc about orthotics to see if either he eval's for them or has a referral (preferably someone with skate experience).

This is such a process.  Who knew with custom skates!

[rd350]

I don't think so @doubletoe but what do I know?  LOL I feel like a detective trying to figure out what's causing what.  They are custom and they feel good until I tie them and skate.  That's why I keep thinking it the uber-stiff tongue - as far as the numbness and cold go.  I assume the cramping is the insole..... maybe.... sigh.

[littlerain]

Lol I'm totally with you - I can never figure out what is causing what either, skate wise!

[rd350]

I just heard back from the orthopedist.  He said the guy he recommends doesn't take any insurance and I read a review (from a NY Times article on orthotics) from someone saying her orthotics from him were "very expensive" and weren't comfortable at all.  Sigh.... I'll call and see how much.  I'm better it's more than my custom skates!  And blades!  I'm not a huge fan of podiatrists.  I prefer an orthopedist that specializes in this.  Wish I'd gotten more than one name.  I will ask for more.

[Neverdull44]

http://www.askmredge.com/medical-advisory-staff.php#RobertWeil

When I was going through this mess, I found Dr. Weil.  I e-mailed him.  He called me back, we chatted, and he sent me his specs for figure skating orthotics.   My local podiatrist knew of him.  Dr. Weil is, apparently, an icon in the foot world.  Evan Lysacek has been a patient of Dr. Weil for a long time.  I didn't go see Dr. Weil, because he was assured that a local fitter could do it.    I found a man in Tampa that was, literally, on the verge of retiring.   After I had him made my orthotics, then another orthotic maker (the place where the orthotics are made, not just a doctor's office) here in Fort Myers said that they also made sports orthotics and could do Dr. Weil's instructions for me.  My regular podiatrist works in an office with orthopedic surgeons.   The surgeon wants to cut, and the podiatrist usually wants to fix the shoe.     

A long time ago, I had a gangleon cyst and my bauer bump.   I went to an office with both podiatrist and surgeons.  The podiatrist gave me a shot of cortisone and fixed my boot up right (Reidell).   The surgeon cut up my tendon that wraps around my left ankle where the cyst was at    It took a while to heal correctly, and I couldn't lutz or camel well for a long time.   But both professionals are needed and good.

It could be that the boot is too narrow.   Have the fitter pull out the insole and look at your imprint on both of your feet.   Do things look squished in the imprint?

[Query]

Let me try saying this again.

Before you spend a lot of money - go get a cheap thin flexible insole from your local drugstore - $1 or $2. Pull out the old insole, trace the old insole on top of it, and cut to match the old insole shape. The new insole will replace the old one. Add layers of tape underneath where you need support. You can tell you need support if part of the underside of the foot has less pressure of contact with that part of the insole. If it would take too many layers of tape to bother, use adhesive foam, like Moleskin. If any spots have excess pressure, cut or sand some of the foam underneath those spots. That's it.

It will take 5 or 10 minutes for both feet.

The fixes most people's problems. Try it and see if the pain goes away.

It's not black magic. If you need to support part of your foot using muscle strength, instead of resting it on your insole, that represents a continuous muscle use, which will make it sore, if you do that long enough. Likewise, if your foot is naturally higher or lower at an arch than the bottom of the boot, that will over-stretch muscles or ligaments, which will eventually make you sore - and will be detectable because there will be less or greater pressure on the underside of the foot there. It's really very simple, and very easy to do.

There are a few people who are more comfortable using a sideways blade offset than the above technique to balance your foot. I honestly don't understand how that is possible, but it's a fact that some people are.

The podiatrist may well be right that you have a back problem too - but what I'm talking about is really basic stuff which will probably fit the immediate problem.

If a podiatrist can't make people comfortable, than he isn't meeting one of the most basic criteria a podiatrist is expected to meet. If the above procedures don't eliminate the pain, ask other people in the skating or dance (especially ballet) communities who did a good job with them.

As far as warmth, as I said before, a closed cell foam insole will be far warmer than anything you talked about. Make sure the shape you cut covers the whole bottom of the boot, because any uncovered portion will make your feet cold. Dr. Scholls Air Pillow insoles aren't all closed cell foam, but are close enough to work fairly well - they cost $4 rather than $1 or $2, but may be worth it. If you have enough space, the closed cell foam foam pads that some rug stores provide are pure closed-cell foam, and are therefore warmer.

(They are closed cell foam if they are rated something like "10 or 20 pound" - it has to do with the pressure needed to squeeze the closed cell foam. Open cell foams, which are much easier to compress, and are often used in commercial installations, aren't as warm. Many closed cell foams are "memory foam" - I'm not sure if that helps.)

Both the Air Pillow and the carpet pad may be thick enough that you will have to cut it down from underneath in spots so your feet aren't too tight. That substitutes for selectively adding tape in places, and is foam is warmer than tape.

Try these things, and I bet it solves your problems.

[rd350]

Hmm okay will it say closed cell foam on the package?  I thought that is what the fitter put under the yellow superfeet but I could be wrong.

I have tried adding moleskin to where I need support.  It's a thin-ish long-ish area that isn't contacting and with all the layers of moleskin it took, it was more like "steps" of layers rather than a smooth transition.  I'll try again!  I'm usually really good at this stuff!  Maybe I'm better at helping others than myself....

[rd350]

Here's what in there.  The foam is under the yellow superfeet and fits perfectly.

[rd350]

Anyone seen this or know anyone who's tried it?

http://www.westsideskate.com/improve-your-performance-with-sidas-custom-insoles/

Tried building up the arch a bit more on the insoles I posted photos of then took some out.  I need more material in a better size and will play with it some more.

[sarahspins]

Regular EVA craft foam is nice to play with - it really WON'T hold up over long-term use (because it eventually compresses - but it takes a month or more, a few sessions on the ice won't do much while you are figuring it out) without modification, but when you are trying to figure out a solution it's certainly cheap and easy.. and eventually you will end up with enough compressed layers that you no longer need to add more

Most craft stores (Michael's, Hobby Lobby, Joann's, etc) sell it for well under $1 a sheet for the 1mm and 2mm thicknesses. Occasionally you will find thicker 3mm and even 5mm, but I've had the best results with the thinner stuff in terms of adjustability.  You can just tape it down where you need it with athletic tape.

That said, I've found that this style of arch support works really well for me regardless of the insoles on my skates (I've yet to find any that offer "enough" arch support - even Phil Khun with Harlick suggested that I would be better off sticking with these if they were working well than opting for their orthopedic inserts - and yes, you read that right, he talked me out of ordering a fairly pricey option with my boots).. I use a small on my left foot and a medium on my right because that's just what works for me (I also have a jackson insole in my left Harlick boot, which in part accounts for the need for a smaller added arch support).  I've also used the pedag ones linked below in the "frequently bought together".

Good news is though, once you figure out what works, it translates really well to your "next" skates - I actually just moved the insoles from my ancient jacksons into my old pair of jacksons, and had nearly no adjustment period on the ice, the hardest part with that pair was breaking in the tongues, but I was effectively doing "everything" the first day on the ice.  I did my best to set up my Harlicks and similarly as possible (though I did scale back my break-in to be more gradual, initially I only taught classes in my new boots, which meant mostly a lot of standing around, with a little bit of demonstrating basic skills), and ultimately added the insole to the left, but I've never had any cramping or arch problems, the reason I added the insole was a "too wiggly in the toes" feeling because I'd previously been used to wearing a "too small" boot on that foot (my feet are different sizes - I tended to size to the smaller foot since it's only about 1/4 size smaller than the left, but that means I got used to a VERY snug fit - when I got boots that "fit" the feeling was a little unsettling, so I replicated what I was expecting to feel as best I could).

[riley876]

I've had good success using hot melt glue to build up the arch on the bottom of a flat insole.   Much the same as Query's tape idea really.

[rd350]

Interestingly, whenever I build up the arch of the insole I cramp more!  I had to tear all but in layer out at the rink today!

So the podiatrist I was referred to by my Sport Med doc doesn't take any insurance.  $570/pair of orthotics.  $450 initial evaluation and casting (if no acute issues preclude a cast that day) and $250 each visit after (usually 2-3) if no issues.  I have an appointment for 3/5!

[rd350]

Oooo, ooooo, ooooo, so happy, I asked if he gives any professional discount and they said they would work with me!  No clue what the discount is exactly but every bit helps.

[TreSk8sAZ]

I'm wondering if the insoles you are putting in are just a touch too wide for the boot, which results in the boot ending up fitting as if it was too narrow once the insoles are in. In skates that fit or are too wide, I've never had cramping issues. Only if they are too narrow. Which could also explain why lacing is creating issues for you.

[rd350]

Interesting @TreSk8sAZ.  I don't think the yellow superfeet are but the others I tired might be, although I took out the foam layer the fitter put in which is a perfect fit and used it as a template.  The green superfeet were definitely too wide.  The Soles, not sure.  I did read some of the other Soles are better for skates.  If I can buy them locally I may try them since they are returnable if they don't work out.

I plan on going to the fitter as soon as I can get my car back and he's free.  The podiatrist wants me to bring the skates in so I guess he can weigh in on all of it too.  I think I've gotten to the point now that it's affecting my right foot off ice.  My arch feels painful now off ice.  Going to get aggressive with soft tissue mobilization.

@sarahspins I didn't see your post earlier.  I think the numbness and cold issue is the stiff tongue so I also think that's the hardest part!  Phil said I could send them to him for softening.  (Would be without the skates for 7+ days).  I think the cramping is an arch/insole/support issue because I only really get that on the right whereas I get the cold and numbness bilaterally.  Whenever I try and build up the arch I am getting more cramping.  Really surprising.  I'll check out that arch support.  It looks interesting.  I was looking at the Pedag ones yesterday.  I may try them too.  I can always use some of the things in non-skate boots and sneakers.

Thanks for all the input!

Oh and apparently SkyRink doesn't have hand dryers in the bathroom or locker room.  Might be the only rink that doesn't in NYC.

[Query]

I have tried adding moleskin to where I need support.  It's a thin-ish long-ish area that isn't contacting and with all the layers of moleskin it took, it was more like "steps" of layers rather than a smooth transition. 

What I do is to overlap strips so the total thickness doesn't have too abrupt steps. And remember, it is done on the underside of a (soft) insole, so the insole itself cushions the transitions between layers.

I've had good success using hot melt glue to build up the arch on the bottom of a flat insole.

I haven't played much with hot glue. Is it faster to lay down than tape or foam?

I just talked to lady (a coach!) who said there was "something wrong" with the way her new boots felt at the toes. But she couldn't identify what - whether there was more or less pressure somewhere, or something else.

For that kind of person, maybe a medical professional can do the job better than the person herself, because what I was talking about required the person be able to identify the problem. I'm not sure what the professional would do, other than maybe use a heat-moldable insole, or use a mushy gel-sole (which a lot of skaters would hate, because you could lose control over what is going on), but maybe they have something they can do. Neither of which is particularly warm, but at least it would more or less fit.

[riley876]

I haven't played much with hot glue. Is it faster to lay down than tape or foam?

Probably not.   Probably no particular advantages or disadvantages over tape.   It's just what I had on hand.   I use it for all sorts of things.   Hot melt glue is the new duct tape 

[Neverdull44]

Regardless of tape, glue, inserts, or orthotics, pay attention to your feet!   To be the best I can be on the ice, means supporting & strengthening my feet off-ice.

The podiatrist who made my orthotics (my previous podiatrists and orthopedic surgeon, too), scolded me to always wear orthotics or good, supportive shoes.  The podiatrist that made my skating orthotics, also makes orthotics for gymnasts (wears no shoes when performing).  The reason is to support the foot when it's not trying to balance on the beam, to strengthen it/get it perfect for when they have to perform.   The podiatrist said, "(Neverdull44), we want you to get to the ice rink in the best foot shape possible.)"

Wear the best shoes you have, especially right now.   Wear your tennis/running shoes off-ice to heal your feet.  Tell family members what you want for Christmas, gift certificates for good shoes.     I usually don't wear flip flops or go barefoot, as those are against Dr.'s instructions.  New Balance tennis shoes (many times with my orthotics for tennis shoes), the orthopedic Crocs, Finn sandals, & Ecco shoes/sandals (outlet stores), are the best shoes I've found.  Dr. Scholls  tennis shoes (bought a pair at Walmart) were cheap & excellent too.  As are the "ugly", old person sandals that look like the Finns.    Sometimes for dress, I will wear Bandalino or Naturalizer heels when dressing up.  I am actually OK in a 3 inch heel if it's in a supportive shoe.    Oh, and I LOVE my Kenkoh message house shoes.   I can't say ENOUGH about those and how happy I am with them. 

I also have specific stretches.    These are "whole body" stretches, but the physical therapists had me doing these types of stretches after my plantar issues and ankle surgery.  I do them every day before I skate, at the rink.   I usually do about 5 of each.     
1)  Upward dog/snake.  It stretches the front of the ankle like no other.  It also stretches my back.
2)  Downward dog.  It stretches the calf muscles and plantar (goes through the arch) and gives one that 30ish degree achilles stretch.  It also stretches & strengthens my whole body which is an added bonus (efficiency).
3)  Ankle circles

At home, I practice
4) picking up objects with my toes (towels, coins, pencils, toy cars . . . alot of toy cars in my house)
5) icing my feet by rolling the arch on a frozen water bottle.

Oh, and I have to really watch my weight.   Less weight = less stress on the feet.  That's a challenge at 46 years old!

[rd350]

That all sounds right on @neverdull!

I have an appointment on Thursday with the podiatrist but I read some pretty bad reviews (some good ones too).  I saw that Bauerfeind is making orthotics for skates and skis now and I really want to try those first just because almost everything they make is amazing.  May just push the doc appointment back a bit.  Also thinking I should see the fitter first before the doc.  Will get all my ducks in a row!

I have always had to wear good shoes.  Never been able to buy cheaply made ones.  I need new ones including sneakers.

I ordered the Pedag's.  How nice would it be to be able to try everything?  I had to hold back.

[Query]

Interestingly, whenever I build up the arch of the insole I cramp more!

My basic feeling is that one should "listen to" your feet - that you can feel what you need. That if something makes you feel better, it is better. I know people sometimes say that isn't always quite right - that sometimes positions that feel good aren't perfectly optimal in the very long run. (Just like foods that taste good aren't always healthy in the long run.) But it is what I personally go by.

So don't build it up - cut or sand some away from beneath there. It's possible that your feet are naturally healthy flatter than the insole+footbed of your boots. Someone on this forum once said that for some people equalizing pressure isn't always optimal. I don't understand the reasons why,

OTOH, if you can afford to see a good medical professional who the rest of the skating/dance community says is good, that ought to be a great thing to do. Especially if another professional has already told you that you have back problems that need to be looked at too.

[rd350]

I totally agree @query it has to feel good!  Nothing is feeling so good right now.  I really strained my arch on the last skate which is kinda strange unless it's just built up over time.

That orthotist I popped in on off the street may be right about my back but I don't know him at all.  I just contacted a PT friend who is a foot specialist and is the PT (with her staff) for the majority of Broadway dancers so hoping she can see me.  It's been a long time since I've talked to her.  I would totally trust her.  I don't think she's evaluating for orthotics anymore but she can certainly tell me what the problem is so I would be most comfortable starting there.  I really hesitate about the podiatrist after reading so many unhappy reviews.  True you never know what exactly was happening but it's certainly not encouraging.  I'll see what my friend says and start there.  In the meantime, really interested in the Bauerfiend orthotics.  Have you heard of them?  Everything they make is awesome and I always recommended their braces, above all else to my patients.

[rd350]

Soooo happy!  My PT friend / foot expert, can make time for me.  I'll get down to the bottom of this now!  Definitely putting off the orthotist until she evaluates me and advises me.  Trust her 1,000%!!

So interesting.  I now have strained my right arch fairly well.  I put green superfeet in my boots to walk out in the snow and felt so much better walking.  I've now done low dye taping of the right foot and it also helps.  Something for the interim....