Breaking in boots, continued - question about insoles

[rd350]

I have broken in my Harlicks way more than when I last posted but I am still having issues with numbness, cramping and freezing toes.  Phil said he could soften the tongues for me but I am going to hold off a bit more since I am now tolerating wearing the skates much longer (so getting more time in quicker, not spending it all on the bench retying).  My fitter wants me to put them on in the house and see if I get numb AND freezing toes too, to see if it's a temperature thing with the boots or from going numb.  I need to do that tomorrow, just been busy.

I noticed this past week I am cramping in my (especially right) arch quickly and easily.  I went back to loosening more and still am not tying the top 2 hooks.  In trying to work through it and stay on the ice longer, I noticed if I just glide on my left and lift my right foot off the ice it immediately gives me a bit of relief and then I shake it out.
This leads me to think that maybe it's the insoles.  I am using yellow super feet and had those in my Reidell Royals as well (and also cramping predominantly on the right in those).  Does that make sense?  I feel like it's when I put weight down and so maybe the insole support is just not cutting it.  I have good arches, if anything I supinate a bit.

Ideas on soles I could possibly try out?

Thinking of going for an orthotics eval but want to try some OTC soles first.

TIA!

[rd350]

Just pushing this post up....   

[Neverdull44]

When I got my Edeas, I cramped alot and in my arches.  It started about 5 to 10 minutes into skating and was very unbearable.   I went to a podiatrist and he told me that it was lactic acid building up from the overworking of my feet.   I have suffered from plantar fasciitis in the past and have to wear orthotics at the gym.  On a treadmill, my toes would go numb too.   In my Edeas, my toes were going numb.  I had to stretch out the ball of my skate area more, and then the numbing went mainly away.    But, the big trick for me was to get custom orthotics to support my arch.  I could have went with trying the "yellow feet" insoles.  I understand that the black insoles made by the same company actually offer more support.   I suggest you take out your Harlick insoles and replace with either Yellow Feet or the Black versions.  If that doesn't work, then go to a podiatrist.  If you have insurance, you might get the insoles for your skates specially made.  But, my insoles were not covered by insurance and were $700ish in total.

[rd350]

Thanks Neverdull.  I never had Harlick insoles.  We decided to go with the yellow superfeet off the bat.

I am doing to take my skates and see if the black ones will fit inside and I can wear them a bit in the store with guards and see.  I think the yellow superfeet were so much better than - well I apparently had no insoles in my old boots at all and didn't realize (don't ask me how), that I "thought they well good but they're probably just not.

I will ask the Sports Med doc what he thinks and consider orthotics.  I am thinking, even though I supinate, I am not "meeting" the insoles 100% and therefore my foot has to "work" so cramps.

[rd350]

I'll check if my insurance covers them too!

[sarahspins]

I am thinking, even though I supinate, I am not "meeting" the insoles 100% and therefore my foot has to "work" so cramps.

I tried to reply earlier on my phone but it ate my response and I didn't feel like typing it all out with my thumbs again, but this is exactly what I was going to suggest - any empty space under your foot  (or around it, honestly) will ultimately cause pain/problems.

In some cases the solution is simple - for example, I have higher arches , so I add extra arch support, and that solves the problem for me.  For others the solution might not be as obvious/easy, and in that case I would absolutely suggest working with someone who can work with you to get the results you need.

One caution though, your boots may have been built with enough extra space to accomodate an orthotic (it's possible, if they knew you planned on using superfeet initially) but you have to make sure that whoever ultimately makes your orthotics  knows that they need to be made low profile, and to fit within your skating boot, which is not flexible where the sides meet the sole like a shoe, and doesn't have a lot of "give" in terms of total volume.  I've seen a lot of cases at my own rink where orthotics were too wide or too thick/tall to fit within a skate, and had to be remade... so if you can get them done right initially that will save yourself a lot of time

[rd350]

Thanks sarahspins!

What did you do for your arches yourself?  I'm going to play around with it here first but will get assessed anyway.  I got very lucky my sport medicine doc's mother was a professional figure skater, so besides knowing sports med, he gets figure skating.  But I'm sure he doesn't do orthotics so hopefully he can get me a good recommendation.

[Query]

As you probably know by now, my web page has some descriptions on altering fit through insoles, which likely covers cramping issues. I've recently been experimenting a lot with warmer insoles. I want to play a little more before finalizing this on my website, but here is where I am so far:

Here are the things I am experimenting with, to make my boots warmer:

1. If the boots can be heat molded to fit you better, do so.

2. Pick a good thick (as thick as you can - this helps a LOT) foam insole as a starting point. E.g., the $4 bi-layer Dr. Scholls from the drug stores. The materials that most of the really expensive insoles are made of are lousy thermal insulators, and have no advantages that I can find. (Exception: molded insoles, including the ones that many podiatrists use, are faster to fit. But they probably aren't very warm.) (Foam, especially closed cell foam, is close to the best insulator there is, way better than leather, rubber, solid plastic, wool, etc.) Do NOT pick an insole that says "cool".

3. Adjust fit (at high pressure points) by cutting away parts of the lower density layer (the one that has bigger air bubbles), not by adding tape. At low pressure points, add more foam, not tape. On my web page, I said to use tape, which is easier and faster, but foam is warmer.

4. Make sure your insole covers the entire bottom of the boot, including toes. An uncovered portion leaks a lot of heat.

5. Likewise, fill the toe end, just beyond your toes, with foam. Open air spaces there loses you a lot heat, due to "convection".

6. If the sides of the boot near the bottom aren't tight against your foot, oversize the insole a little so it climbs up the sides of the boot a bit.

7. I am currently experimenting with adding an aluminum foil reflective layer under the foam, cut to the same shape as the insole. I won't go into the physics, other than to say it is an infrared radiant heat reflector. I didn't think it would help, because the foam insoles are white (which is somewhat reflective and tends to suppress radiation anyway), and I am still experimenting, but I think it may help.

8. Warm your boots to about body temperature (98.6 deg F or 37 deg C) before putting them on. Use a rest-room hand warmer, a hair drier, or a microwaved sock full of rice in your boots. This is huge.

9. Consider neoprene boot covers.

10. I may give up on hand and foot warmers. Better insulation works better for me - but for people with extremely poor insulation, they may still make sense.

11. Skate at rinks with warmer ice and warmer air. Don't skate outdoors.  I'm sometimes breaking those rules - which is the reason I'm working on making my boots warmer.

Stay warm!

[DressmakingMomma]

My daughter has custom Harlicks as well, but we went with competitor level stiffness so hers are softer then yours. Even those seemed really stiff and she said they felt like blocks. She has the flex notches and we cut the back down by 1/2" to give her as much flexibility as possible. She is pretty 'light' in her boots and hardly creases them even though she now skates 2-3 hours 5 days a week.

She still needed some extra softening after the break-in period. We weren't worried about early break-down of skates because she'll outgrow them first, we just wanted them to break-in as fast as possible so she could get the most out of her lessons. I rolled the tongue and bent and rolled the upper part of the skate in and out in the lace hook/ankle area like our tech showed us. The tongue seemed particularly stiff, so I spent lots of time on that just rolling it up and down in my hands. Our tech felt the tongues were a bit high so he cut them down so they didn't ride as high up her shins and I think that helped as well.

She needs a retie at least twice every time she skates. Our process is tie - 4-5 laps, tie again - 4-5 laps, a spin, and a few jumps, tie again and that usually does it. I think it just has to do with how warm the boots are because I have quite a bit more lace each time yet I'm pulling my hardest from the beginning. She uses all cotton laces, the nylon were terrible for her. Every once in awhile she comes back off the ice for me to loosen them because she starts cramping up when I've gotten them too tight. It is a bit of a hassle, but we just plan an extra 15 minutes before a lesson to get her boots right. Once they are perfect, I get a big smile, the thumbs up, and she can skate all day.

[Neverdull44]

My doctor explained that if he could bend or pinch the insole with his hand, they were not right for my issues.    Body weight on just foam, squishes to the point of no support.  My orthotics are amazing to skate in.  I am so much more comfortable and efficient.    If you have a pro-hockey team in your area, their coaches may know the local guru who fits orthotics for skates. Also, Evan Lycacek's uses a podiatrist in the Chicago area for his orthotics.  He's on Mr. Edge's page.  Since I had mine done, I found another orthotics making center who would make them for me for about $300.  But, I have mine and am happy with them  They will last for several years.

[rd350]

Thanks Neverdull.  I have a PT friend who is a foot expert and treats primarily dancers.  I will ask her what she thinks and if she knows anyone who really knows skating but I think I would trust her 1000%.  I'll contact her as well as the Sports Doc whose mother was a pro figure skater and ask at the rink.  I'm doing an edge class now given by the Ice Theater.  I bet someone there will know if all else fails.  They are mostly professionals in the class.  One would think I could get this done in NYC!

@DressmakingMomma hmm this is interesting.  So you didn't send them back for Phil to soften the tongues.  I'm trying to picture what you mean by rolling.  Mine is soooo stiff it took me 40 minutes to change the laces because I couldn't get the tongues out of the way!  I also do have my expert fitter I can go to in NJ.  He told me to check/do a few things and then I can come in to him if needed.  I would hate to send the boots to Phil and be without them for a couple of weeks but I will if I have to.

@query The Transpack heated bags look so amazing but at $200 I don't think I can do it.  I don't own a microwave and don't have a dryer in my apartment.  Trying to think how I can heat the boots up other the hand dryers at the rink but I will try that.  It's so crazy cold here and I take public transportation when skating in the city so am outside a lot on the way there.  I couldn't find the area on your website with the insole info.  Can you give me the link?  Thanks!

[twinskaters]

Hmm, all my NYC apartments were ridiculously overheated. Is yours? You could fill a pair of socks with rice and leave them on the radiator, then stick them in your boots. Or maybe you can boil the gel ice/hot packs in water instead of microwaving them?

[rd350]

I'm going to get some of those hot gel packs.

I went and bought "Sole" insoles that meet my arch.  I cut and heat molded them and starting cramping on the right, in my apartment.     I'm going to try them on the ice anyway and see what happens.  Standing, even walking in the apartment on guards isn't exactly the same.  They have some thinsulate insulation at the bottom too, so was hoping I'd be warmer too.  Will see on ice later this week.

Remolded them and seem better.  Wish I could skate tomorrow.

[aussieskater]

rd350, as long as you have a cooktop on which you can boil a largish saucepan of water, the reuseable gel heat packs may be good for you.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-X-BEST-REUSABLE-HOT-COLD-PACKS-SMALL-HEAT-PACK-INSTANT-HEAT-PACKS-/140466483507?pt=AU_Massage_Beauty_Equipment&hash=item20b4747133.

These ones are very similar to the ones I use for competition, when I have no access to a microwave to preheat my bean-filled socks, at the time I would want my boots to be warmed.  They're excellent - I use 2 per boot.  They attain max heat quite quickly, and the heat lasts for about an hour, so plenty of time for your boots to warm up.  Once you're home, you boil them in a saucepan on the cook-top for about 15-20 minutes, or until the contents re-liquefy and all the crystals are dissolved.

[DressmakingMomma]

I have one of these tucked into the zuca. I use it to heat the boot overall from the inside or to spot heat something that is bugging her. No need for a microwave and you can use it at the rink. It doesn't get as hot as a workshop heat gun so I don't worry so much about ruining her boots.

http://www.amazon.com/Nicole--Multi-purpose-Perfect-Embossing-Drying/dp/B006Z9LUDG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424177711&sr=8-1&keywords=craft+heat+gun

Use your skate tech as well, we are heading into ours because she went through a small foot growth (boots still fit, thank goodness) but her heel won't sink all the way back now and she is banging her toes on jumps. If you have a good tech, then he's seen it all and can probably offer some advice. Good Luck!

[TreSk8sAZ]

I've always just used the insoles that came with the Harlicks, so I'm not of any use there. However, if your feet are cramping, make sure you are not pulling too tightly over the arch area. When I'm breaking boots in, I pull tighter over the toes, looser over the arch, then tighter again just before the hooks. Tying too tight over the arch can definitely make your foot cramp. Then, as the skates loosen up, you can start tying it tighter again.

[rd350]

Thanks everyone!  I am definitely ordering the gel packs!

Interesting @TreSk8sAZ, my fitter said not to tie tight (or even pull at all) at the toes - to the 4th hole.  I definitely cramp from over-tying at the arch so I never do and was still cramping the last 2 skates.

Regarding insoles GREEN SUPERFEET DEFINITELY DO NOT WORK in figure skates, which it too bad.  In physical therapy, we have a lot of functional tests we can do while someone is standing on their insoles or orthotics and these are by far the best for me.  I think I'm going to keep them for street boots.  My core and responses are pretty solid on these!  Anyway, they are too wide and too high profile.  You can't cut the width down enough because the plastic/composite/whatever the harder material is, is there.

I put the SOLES insoles back in and they are pretty comfortable in the apartment.  I am really hoping to skate tomorrow morning and test them out.  I'll warm up the inside of the boots in the bathroom with the hand drying and these insoles have a Thinsulate layer on the bottom so hoping I'll be overall warmer too.  Since these insoles are heat moldable, maybe they'll tweak some while they're hot.

Cool I found similar gel packs here.  http://www.amazon.com/HEAT-WAVE-Instant-Reusable-Heat/dp/B000E48LVM

And a fun DIY http://lifehacker.com/make-your-own-reusable-diy-hot-ice-hand-warmers-1516087373.

[Query]

Gel packs are poor thermal insulators. So they may actually make the boot feel colder. Likewise for the heat molded insoles.

That's what is nice about foam - but you have to cut it to the shape needed, which takes time.

A cheap hair drier will work fine to warm the boot or rice sock up - you don't need anything special. Except for the initial heat molds, you don't want the boots much warmer than body temperature, because that will re-heat mold them every time - which speeds boot break down, and while your feet aren't in them, they will heat mold to the wrong shape.

My experience with foot warmers in the boot has been that I had to remove the insoles to fit them - which made the boot colder. But if you you have a lot of space inside your boot (so the foot warmers would fit - in which case thicker foam insoles that provide more insulation would also fit, and may be better), or you have very poor circulation (so that insulation isn't enough to keep your feet warm), then foot warmers make sense.

OTOH, I successfully used the chemical hand or foot warmers in XC ski boots, which had more space - though it didn't occur to me to try a thicker foam insole. I suspect that would have worked at least as well there too.

These and similar foot warmer/insoles might cover more of the foot - pricey, but they sort of make sense. Though I don't see how to size them.

The "Right" solution to the cold at ice rinks is Kurt Vonnegut's  "Ice 9" - to give us nice slippery ice at room temperature.  Without, of course, the bad side effects.

[rd350]

Hmm well the Soles insoles have thinsulate on the underside.  We'll see.  I do not have a lot of room in the boots.  They are custom and the insoles are not that easy to get in, though not so hard that I risk  damage to the boots.

[skategeek]

The "Right" solution to the cold at ice rinks is Kurt Vonnegut's  "Ice 9" - to give us nice slippery ice at room temperature.  Without, of course, the bad side effects.

Sounds good to me! 

[rd350]

The jury is out on the Soles insoles.  I went to Bryant Park rink uber cold ice (14 degrees, wind chill 0 so very, very hard) because it was free and there was no good ice elsewhere, just to try out the insoles.  I think they may take up a tad too much up and down space but I didn't stay on long (altercation with some kids with their hands on my lock at the locker and their friends trying to block it from site - they got thrown out and I got nervous about them).  I'm going to give it another try on good ice.  I did cramp a bit when I got off the ice initially (5 minutes after I got on due to resurfacing) but I stopped cramping during the altercation!!  Interesting!!  I guess I was sufficiently distracted.

On my way to the subway I saw a very old shoe shop/orthotist and thought I would go in (had my skates with me) as they lasted somehow.  The orthotist is convinced my issue is NOT the insoles but my back (L2-3 and femoral nerve impingement - no, he didn't look at my spine).  I really have no back issues!  He thinks I would find I did, if I looked, as in some tests.  I'm not rushing for x-rays but will keep this in mind for sure.  He also pointed out that although I have a high arch and supinate some, that in the middle of step-through I really drop into pronation.  I knew this but wasn't thinking it was an issue in the skates because we don't step through in the same way as walking.  Anyone have any thoughts on that?
He does think I would benefit from orthotics and said he made JoJo Starbuck's orthotics or skates or both - I can't remember, years ago, LOL.  It's $450.  I'm obviously going to check him out and also get referrals from all the people I can ask that should know.  It'll be interesting to see if my PT friend who primarily treats dancers knows who he is.  He's been doing it about 40 years he said.

I will end up going to whomever my friend and doc recommend but this was interesting.

[Neverdull44]

The guy who made my orthotics, watched me walk & run, looked at my street shoe wear, took out my skating insoles to see the wear pattern.   I turn one foot as I walk . . . . he picked up on alot of strange things.  Orthotic doctors must be fun at a cocktail party    It was an hour+ visit, and then he made impressions and took my skates away from me.  My orthotics fit perfectly into my skate.   He was able to turn my one foot slightly to help my navicular bone.   The orthotics are a little ground at the back, so as to really sit into the footbed.  It's definitely an art that they do. 

[rd350]

For sure.  I have to find just the right person.  Wish I could see your orthotist!

[Neverdull44]

He's semi-retired, but ls in the Tampa, Florida area!  Anyway, ask around with your pro or semi-pro hockey guys, especially.  Figure skaters are usually young and without foot issues.  I found my orthotic maker through my local podiatrist, actually.   The orthotic maker did some orthotics for the local rinks, including a national pairs team.

Good luck!

[rd350]

Thanks @neverdull!