Just a question - Parents rink side.

[Query]

Good parent(s)/guardian(s) have many important roles, before the lesson, especially for younger kids: E.g., getting the student there in time for the lesson, providing the kids with warm clothing [e.g., coats, gloves) and encouraging them to wear it, tying the laces good and tight, attaching the helmets right (when helmets are used), and encouraging the kid to have fun.

These roles are very important.

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As a volunteer instructor, I had an interesting experience last weekend. A father was very upset that his daughter had not been passed through a USFSA Basic Skills 2 class last fall. I don't think I was the instructor in that case, and didn't recall the student, but he assumed I was, because I was teaching one of the sections of Basic Skills 2 last weekend. He said many unkind things to me. I saw no benefit from arguing, so I told the parent to speak to the figure skating director. She too saw no benefit from arguing, and tentatively moved his daughter to a Basic Skills 3 section.

We pass almost everyone who attends through Basic Skills 2, so if the kid didn't pass, the kid couldn't do something basic, like swizzles, unless there was a clerical error. If it wasn't a clerical error, she will not benefit from the Basic Skills 3 class. So, either the child will stay in the the Basic Skills 3 class, and learn nothing, or be sent back to Basic Skills 2, with the disadvantage of missing the first Basic Skills 2 class.

I rather hope the student isn't sent back to my Basic Skills 2 section, so someone else has the privilege of dealing with the father.

[DressmakingMomma]

It's unfortunate you had that experience, especially being a volunteer! Once I had a conversation about this with a skating coach, who said there is so much pressure from parents for kids to pass a level at the end of each session that gets put on both the kids and the instructors. It sort of forces the coaches into making decisions that aren't in the best interest of the kids. This is why finding a coach you really trust and stepping back to let them do their job with your children is so important.

There are a lot of life lessons in failure for kids that gets robbed from them if parents step in and change the natural course of action. I hope my kids learn that if you don't achieve what you had hoped for the first time around then ramp up your efforts to make sure you reach your goals knowing that sometimes it will take a multitude of attempts. I think we parents are working so hard to do the right thing, so want the best for our children, so want them to be happy and successful that we end up doing them no favors - all in the name of good intentions. Hopefully you won't have to deal with the dad again, I'm sorry that happened.

[4711]

It's unfortunate you had that experience, especially being a volunteer! Once I had a conversation about this with a skating coach, who said there is so much pressure from parents for kids to pass a level at the end of each session that gets put on both the kids and the instructors. It sort of forces the coaches into making decisions that aren't in the best interest of the kids. This is why finding a coach you really trust and stepping back to let them do their job with your children is so important.

There are a lot of life lessons in failure for kids that gets robbed from them if parents step in and change the natural course of action. I hope my kids learn that if you don't achieve what you had hoped for the first time around then ramp up your efforts to make sure you reach your goals knowing that sometimes it will take a multitude of attempts. I think we parents are working so hard to do the right thing, so want the best for our children, so want them to be happy and successful that we end up doing them no favors - all in the name of good intentions. Hopefully you won't have to deal with the dad again, I'm sorry that happened.

I think we all learn more from instances when things don't go according to plan. Winning, etc is easy.
I am still laughing, when my kid was maybe 7, he went to his first Taekwondo tournament. He got 2nd place in one of his two events. Oh my gosh was he ever in a snit. Saying his dad and I were lying, we were mad he didn't get gold, while we were as proud as we could be about his silver medal! 
It was kind of bad though, that I had to chew him out for his attitude though....

[icedancer]

My main rink puts out a pretty tight LTS schedule and states in the brochure that it is not unusual for a skater to have to repeat a level - in fact it is expected!  I think maybe this dispels a lot of the angst surrounding the "my kid is not good enough?" line of thought.

[Sk8tmum]

I can't skate - at all ... sadly.  But, apparently, I'm a pretty handy-dandy part of the coaching team, with the coaches blessing.  I've spent so many hours rink side, and have learnt enough from my kids, research, (this forum), coaches, ex-skaters, other parents, watching and asking questions, that I can support my kids with good assessments of jumps, spins, footwork, posture, edges etc;  I'm not particularly good with dances, but, that's because my guys haven't pursued dances as intensively, although, for many painful reasons, damn, I can call a Kilian like nobody's business (sigh, 8 attempts for one kid, 3 for the other). So, I can do feedback on runthrus, jump practice, spins, footwork etc, and it's helpful, particularly as my kids have matured and need less lesson-ing and are more independent practitioners.  Apparently, I can even call a spin level quite nicely ... my DD is a fairly high level official and she's taught me well. Sometimes I'm rinkside, sometimes in the gallery; sometimes it's video replay at home. Depends on my arthritis and how much cold I can take on a day. The coaches appreciate this, and they include me in discussions and ask me to watch for specific "things" when the kids are working independently. 

In regards to LTS:  my early frustration with LTS came when there was no communication. My kid would get the high-fives, waytogos, etc, and would assume that all was trucking along nicely to passing a level. As a non-skating parent, what did I know about what something should look like?  Then, report card day would come, and, eeks, things were NOT progressing well/level was way off, etc.  Which meant confused and disappointed kid who thought they were doing great, and a baffled and frustrated parent who couldn't explain things (this is a loonnnnngggg time ago, btw).  Once we moved to a program where honest communication was in place vs. constant cheerleading, the kids were happier (mom, my 3-turn is better, but, the coach says it needs to be more on my edge and I need more runout, so, I'm not passing that yet) and I got interim feedback rather than the terminal report day, it was waaayyy better.  Made me far more relaxed, and the whole thing was happier.  Saw a lot less parent unhappiness in general from program 2 vs program 1 ....

[4711]

I can't skate - at all ... sadly.  But, apparently, I'm a pretty handy-dandy part of the coaching team, with the coaches blessing.  I've spent so many hours rink side, and have learnt enough from my kids, research, (this forum), coaches, ex-skaters, other parents, watching and asking questions, that I can support my kids with good assessments of jumps, spins, footwork, posture, edges etc;  I'm not particularly good with dances, but, that's because my guys haven't pursued dances as intensively, although, for many painful reasons, damn, I can call a Kilian like nobody's business (sigh, 8 attempts for one kid, 3 for the other). So, I can do feedback on runthrus, jump practice, spins, footwork etc, and it's helpful, particularly as my kids have matured and need less lesson-ing and are more independent practitioners.  Apparently, I can even call a spin level quite nicely ... my DD is a fairly high level official and she's taught me well. Sometimes I'm rinkside, sometimes in the gallery; sometimes it's video replay at home. Depends on my arthritis and how much cold I can take on a day. The coaches appreciate this, and they include me in discussions and ask me to watch for specific "things" when the kids are working independently. 

In regards to LTS:  my early frustration with LTS came when there was no communication. My kid would get the high-fives, waytogos, etc, and would assume that all was trucking along nicely to passing a level. As a non-skating parent, what did I know about what something should look like?  Then, report card day would come, and, eeks, things were NOT progressing well/level was way off, etc.  Which meant confused and disappointed kid who thought they were doing great, and a baffled and frustrated parent who couldn't explain things (this is a loonnnnngggg time ago, btw).  Once we moved to a program where honest communication was in place vs. constant cheerleading, the kids were happier (mom, my 3-turn is better, but, the coach says it needs to be more on my edge and I need more runout, so, I'm not passing that yet) and I got interim feedback rather than the terminal report day, it was waaayyy better.  Made me far more relaxed, and the whole thing was happier.  Saw a lot less parent unhappiness in general from program 2 vs program 1 ....

That is pretty awesome!
I mean, one does not have to be able to do in order to coach (I am sure most coaches - like in football - never reached the level their players are at. At least college and pros)

[FigureSpins]

That is pretty awesome!
I mean, one does not have to be able to do in order to coach (I am sure most coaches - like in football - never reached the level their players are at. At least college and pros)

I realize that you have no experience or involvement with figure skating, so don't take this the wrong way, but while a coach like Kori Aid may not have been an elite skater herself, that doesn't mean that any know-nothing off the street can coach at that level.  (I'm glad you like it here, but I'm not sure why you stay given your lack of involvement in skating???)

Skaters can coach somewhat above your (former/current) skating level, but to coach without any skating experience is a disaster waiting to happen.  Could they be a leader/coach?  Yes.  Could they teach someone how to do something they've never even experienced the basics of?  Not a snowball's chance in h-e-double hockey sticks, lol.  That's called "pretending."  You have to at least have the basics and then gather the advanced knowledge from someone more experienced.  That's why the skating organizations conduct training and knowledge-sharing.  That's why coaches like Kori Ade bring in specialists and remain the primary coach throughout.

That said, my all-time favorite quote from this board has to be (paraphrasing) when Slusher remarked that you didn't need to be an Olympic veteran in order to teach tots how to lick the ice.

FYI: when skatingforums' has had zealous parents post their knowledge and advice about technical skating, the members have reported the posts as erroneous and misleading.  Better to advise your daughter only, rather than the general populace who rely on our site for accurate information.  Just a word to the wise.

[4711]

Point taken. 
I had not considered to advise her to hang out a shingle and start coaching.

However, a good understanding of the bio mechanics can go a long way to advise.
Riders call it 'the eye on the ground' which is not necessarily the instructor.

I, personally would probably fall out of the bleachers, trying to understand the ins and outs.
However, one can train the eye. Asking questions, educating oneself is imperative though.

Alas, this is taking this a bit far down the tracks past the initial question.

[retired]

That said, my all-time favorite quote from this board has to be (paraphrasing) when Slusher remarked that you didn't need to be an Olympic veteran in order to teach tots how to lick the ice.

Oh hello there! 

[concorde]

I used to watch my daughter when she had a private lesson.  Then one day I noticed that when she was practicing her program, she kept looking for me.  When I mentioned this to the coach, he looked at me and told me that in all his years coaching, I was the first parent that who noticed that parents distract their children by watching.

So I have now banned myself from watching my daughter.  I still sometimes try to catch a glimpse of her practicing but the her "mommy radar" goes off and I catch her again watching me.

[PhysicsOnIce]

but the her "mommy radar" goes off and I catch her again watching me.

I am 25 years old and when my mom comes to the rink it still happens. I catch myself looking at my mom for that little confirmation that only a motherly smile can give or that little push to try again. But my mom and I have a very special relationship, she has always been part of my coaching team, but always OFF-ICE. It's more of a mental, emotional and psychological coaching rather than rink-side coaching. She knows nothing about skating. Okay not true, she can tell when a skater has grace and elegance, but don't ask her to tell a Axel and Loop apart. She stays away from the boards at ALL cost, excuse ... it's too cold.

Actually, one of my biggest little secrets is when entering a jump I have to envision my mother sitting at the top of the bleachers directly in my jump line and making eye contact with her,  it is a huge boost of confidence and sometimes even jump height. I guess it comes from her sitting in the cafeteria when I was little.

That being said when you are little I think it is more distracting than beneficial since kids are always looking for confirmation from parents.

[littlerain]

I'm not a parent so I can't weight in much but I can say that I would have liked my parents to have at least stayed at the rink when I was taking lessons as a kid. My parents were very much drop off and go with everything, and I'm not even sure that they agreed to consistently take me to the rink for practice. (But that part isn't their fault, my attention span for practice was never good as a kid and they probably thought my aversion to practicing piano also translated to skating)

On the other hand, while I was at the rink before a group lesson recently I overheard a mom yelling "grace" repeatedly to her daughter, a young teen while she was running through her program. I heard her coach mention that they were working on that yet at the same time if that were me, I probably would not be pleased lol


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[concorde]

I think how actively involved a parent needs to be also depends on the age of the child.

When my daughter was very young (under 5), someone was always there to watch her.  But starting when she was about 6, I made sure she got on the ice but then let her coach take over.  By 7, she could be dropped off for a couple of hours.  She is 9 this year and I'm not sure if she ready to be dropped off for the day - although I have seen parents of even younger skater (at lower levels too) do it.

[Query]

It isn't always practical, to tell each parent how well the kids are doing. As with any kind of group lesson, the teacher's time is quite limited.

A non-skating adult can tell a lot, especially in the beginning classes. Watch the coach demo things. Watch your child and the other children try to copy the coach. They should all look roughly the same. Your child shouldn't look like he/she is having a lot more trouble than the others.

Yes, the coach will look more graceful than everyone - but your kid shouldn't look much less graceful than the other kids.

Falling is not the same as marching. Marching is not the same as gliding. Gliding on one foot is not the same as gliding on two.

Swizzling, which is when the feet come alternately sideways together and apart without coming off the ice, has a characteristic look too - if the kid can't bring the feet back together without taking them off the ice, something is wrong.

If the coach bends the knees, and the child doesn't, something is wrong. If they child looks down at their feet, something is probably wrong, because figure skating is all about posture and appearance.

Another major clue in a beginning level classes is that if the instructor gives the student a lot of attention, the student is probably doing something wrong.

And if the kid isn't paying any attention, or "does their own thing", they won't learn anything. Likewise if they spend their time fighting with another kid.

If the child looks frustrated, that is meaningful too.

Also, if everyone one else is moving forward (or backwards) fairly fast, and the child isn't moving much of anywhere, the child is having trouble.

Ask the kid if he/she is having more trouble than the others.

In other words, as a parent, you CAN tell.

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There is a big difference between watching and interacting. Watching is good. Interacting during class is disruptive, to everyone. When a parent tries to interact, I try to get in the way, so the child can't see the parent. Some parents take the hint.

It is not that uncommon, BTW, for parents to ask the coach how well their child is doing just after the coach comes off the ice. Depending on how well the coach remembers the student (it helps if you both name and point out the child), you may get a pretty good idea that way. But no coach can do that for everyone.

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One last thing. Skating should be fun. Don't take this all too seriously. If the kid is having fun, and is doing about as well as everyone, that's good. Your kid doesn't have to look better than everyone.

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I don't agree that a non-skater can teach most kids well. Young kids learn almost entirely by imitation - it's a rare child that can learn motions from words. The USFSA Basic Skills instructor handbook now specifically says a coach must be able to demo well the skills they teach, and that they shouldn't teach basic skill levels they can not demo. (I don't remember the exact wording.) At some high elite level, this may have to change, but at the beginning the coach must demo.