Just a question - Parents rink side.

[4711]

It's a bit wishy-washy, I admit.

Parents sitting rink side when the kids take lessons.

I have encountered various scenarios, so I am aware that one size does not fit all.

I am currently leading a girl scout troop. I lost one girl when I made it clear her mother was no longer permitted at the meetings. To cut a long story short, the woman was disruptive in her own right, but more importantly, the girl was paying much better attention when her parents were not around.

I have observed that on different occasions, that the kids behave better when the parents are at least out of sight, preferably not even in the same building (not just lesson related)

On the other hand, I have also seen it work when the parents only observe but can't - be it because of the rules or of the set-up - communicate with the child.

Trainers/coaches, do you prefer the parents around?
Parents, do you prefer to observe?

I believe ice rinks are a little like that Taekwondo school I used to work out at: the place was in a location that did not lend itself to just drop the kid off and go about your business for an hour, as each destination was at least 20 minutes away, the session for kids only 45 minutes long.

[Willowway]

As a parent (kids now grown), a skater, a friend of coaches with whom I discuss this sort of thing and former teacher, my comments: most kids do better with a good teacher when the child has the freedom to fail/fall/try/succeed on their own terms; most parents do their job better when they are concentrated on the process of getting their kids great teachers/environments but leaving a professional coach/teacher to do what they do, supporting the process but not being in the middle of it. As a parent of one child with learning issues, I know this is hard but as a parent also of the same child who wound up at Oxford University (yes, I'm very proud of him), he could not have found his considerable strengths with me in the middle every one of the minutes I wanted to protect him. This is by way of saying that even if you don't agree with me, I've earned my opinion with experience.

I know that these days a lot of parents would sit in class with their kids all day if they could but children really do better when they are allowed to own their experience. Trying and failing is part of the learning process and most kids want that to be theirs - they will share with their parents what they choose to share and the teacher/coach can share info with the parent separately. Yes, an occasional sit in to make sure the coach is doing his or her job, great - I think anything more becomes a problem for the child by turning the learning experience into a performance. I don't know about anyone else here but when I learn something new, especially on the ice, I don't want anyone other than my teacher watching my every error - it's hard enough. Of course there are other people at the rink and in class but they're not concentrating on me and frankly, that's fine with me.

There was a great article very recently about Meryl Davis' and Charlie White's moms - two of the most supportive moms around. Another of the special moms who raised a champion but never hovered was Brian Boitano's mother. Must be hard to resist but these moms did it.

Link to article referenced http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/9844673/espnw-moms-us-ice-dancing-favorites-charlie-white-meryl-davis-winning-pair

[Vicki7]

My mum is great. She's my own personal cheerleader - congratulates me on my successes, offers her advice when I ask, and tells me to keep trying when I struggle. She is awesome and very supportive of my skating.

She's never set foot in my rink

Matter of fact, I'm not sure she knows where it is or how to get there! I think I'll keep it that way, until she comes to a show or something I find I work a lot better when there are no distractions, it's part of the reason none of my friends have come to the rink with me. If I was to have a lesson with them there, it'd just be a distraction for me.

[4711]

As a parent (kids now grown), a skater, a friend of coaches with whom I discuss this sort of thing and former teacher, my comments: most kids do better with a good teacher when the child has the freedom to fail/fall/try/succeed on their own terms; most parents do their job better when they are concentrated on the process of getting their kids great teachers/environments but leaving a professional coach/teacher to do what they do, supporting the process but not being in the middle of it. As a parent of one child with learning issues, I know this is hard but as a parent also of the same child who wound up at Oxford University (yes, I'm very proud of him), he could not have found his considerable strengths with me in the middle every one of the minutes I wanted to protect him. This is by way of saying that even if you don't agree with me, I've earned my opinion with experience.

I know that these days a lot of parents would sit in class with their kids all day if they could but children really do better when they are allowed to own their experience. Trying and failing is part of the learning process and most kids want that to be theirs - they will share with their parents what they choose to share and the teacher/coach can share info with the parent separately. Yes, an occasional sit in to make sure the coach is doing his or her job, great - I think anything more becomes a problem for the child by turning the learning experience into a performance. I don't know about anyone else here but when I learn something new, especially on the ice, I don't want anyone other than my teacher watching my every error - it's hard enough. Of course there are other people at the rink and in class but they're not concentrating on me and frankly, that's fine with me.

There was a great article very recently about Meryl Davis' and Charlie White's moms - two of the most supportive moms around. Another of the special moms who raised a champion but never hovered was Brian Boitano's mother. Must be hard to resist but these moms did it.

Link to article referenced http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/9844673/espnw-moms-us-ice-dancing-favorites-charlie-white-meryl-davis-winning-pair

Thank you for the link, I will look at it once I have a little more time.

In my limited experience, kids can really surprise you with courage or maturity if they are let 'off the chain' so to speak, when they are not 'the child' but the person.

[Loops]

I agree with what's been said here.  Helicopter parents drive me bonkers.   When I was young, we called them "rink mothers".  Those were the ones who were always around and in everyone's business, usually in a disruptive way.

I feel bad for the young lady on 4711's troop.  I bet if left to her own devices, she'd have preferred to stay in GS and without her mother.  It reminds me of a situation I was teaching high school  The students with helicopter mothers were generally the least successful.  I even know of one who after college was required to go home and live with her parents, and not allowed to drive, so really no chance for a future.  She's not strong enough to walk away.  It's very sad.

Speaking as a parent, I agree with parents being kept at a distance.  If they must stay at the rink, then perhaps restricted to some area behind plexiglass, if not away from the ice altogether.   However, I would make an exception for little kids.  Mine are 3 and 5.  The 3yo has a 1/2 hour skating lesson when she wants to go.  But my 5yo plays hockey.  I don't feel any personal need to observe, but do sit rinkside still, simply because they both need help with getting off the ice and going potty, and just in case there's an injury.  Plus, my 3yo needs to actually see me or she freaks out.  I am careful to NOT coach/comment/interfere from the boards.  And I stay out of it when the hockey coach disciplines my son (the coaches don't discipline the 3/4yo's).  This year, it would be the hockey coaches that would be bothered by my presence, and they don't seem to be.  All the other parents are there, too though.  I am SO looking forward to my kids being old enough for me to either stay in the warming room, or better yet, drop and go!

[DressmakingMomma]

Yes, an occasional sit in to make sure the coach is doing his or her job, great - I think anything more becomes a problem for the child by turning the learning experience into a performance. I don't know about anyone else here but when I learn something new, especially on the ice, I don't want anyone other than my teacher watching my every error - it's hard enough. Of course there are other people at the rink and in class but they're not concentrating on me and frankly, that's fine with me.

Thank you for this perspective! I always watch my DD's lessons from the stands, though I would never interfere - we completely trust her coach. I'm going to talk with her about this and ask if she prefer I watch or find a corner to read a book in. When we go to the rink for public sessions, she wants me to watch and often begs me to get on the ice with her. I don't know how to skate but she offered up a deal that after she gets her axel I have to take lessons so I can. I am of the sound belief that one of the greatest gifts we can give our children is independence and a sense of responsible living. BUT, and this is a big but, that comes in different forms for different children - even within one family.

There have been of situations with our younger daughter where watching and getting involved were a necessity - girl scouts, competitive club soccer, and school to name a few. She was bullied and I wouldn't have known the severity if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. We made drastic decisions because of what I had been around to see, and I shudder to think of the possibilities otherwise.

It bugs me when somebody else observes our family and presumes to think they know what is best for our children based on their own experiences. I would take offense to somebody calling me a helicopter parent, because the casual stranger has no idea what our family dynamics are. What I don't disclose to strangers or even most of our friends is that one of our children has a form of autism. Most people would be SHOCKED to learn this because it isn't at all obvious, but we are required to parent differently. I have had complete strangers offer up parenting advice and I'd like to shout "ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!" But that wouldn't be respectful of our daughter, so we just sort of shake it off. I guess what I'm trying to say is to give others the benefit of the doubt, be respectful, don't gossip with the other rink adults about how such and such should be doing things differently with their child, and don't assume that you know better - because you may be looking at a really fantastic parent who has provided her child with an incredible number of opportunities to work past a disability and who is really proud of her child and the parenting that she and her husband have managed.

Clearly this thread must have struck a nerve with me - LOL! Although, interestingly, it also has me pondering on our next skating lesson.

[4711]

wow, witnessing your daughter being bullied, somebody was ballsy!
I apologize if my question made you uncomfortable.
As I stated I am dealing with several youth groups and I am always eager to hear what other people experience in similar situations.

Parenting is a difficult job, and it seems that no matter what you decide, you picked the wrong option. 
(but do grab some skates and try the ice. I ended up out staying my son in Taekwondo, nearly getting my instructor certificate. It was a ton of fun! )

I would probably not 'abandon' my kid at public ice. It seems to me to be a situation like the library, reasonably safe, but everybody can walk in.

[Loops]

Well, I'm the one who threw out the term "helicopter parent".   And I do agree with that different children have different needs in terms of parental involvement, and no one is necessarily in a position to judge others.  We should be involved with our kids, and help them to succeed.  But some parents are disruptive to others- I was actually bullied by parents, both as a teacher and when I was a kid skating.  Those are what I call "Helicopter parents."  Looking back, they even bully to some extent their own kids.

If the example I gave of my student being forced home after college is what was troublesome, all I will say is that its is a very extreme case.  The young lady (and her sister) is very bright, responsible and capable, but the mother is unwilling to let her daughters out of her direct control.   

Dressmakingmomma, I'm so sorry if you felt offended by my remark.  I absolutely did not intend that.   And I completely agree with you that unsolicited parenting advice is angering.  I've made many decisions for my kids that aren't mainstream, as I guess you've had to as well. So I've gotten more than my fair share of others' insights on child-rearing.

Your comment about public sessions though makes me think about when I'd be OK letting my kids go on their own.  They're obviously too young now, but at what point do you make that call?  I suspect they'd be a fair bit older before I'd be OK dropping them off.   Especially after your story about the man and his video camera.  Creepy!!!!   For club sessions at this rink, my age threshold is lower, but that's because I've been around both clubs enough to feel comfortable with the situation.  A different rink/different club atmosphere might require a different response.   If there were bullying threats, be sure I'd do the same as you and maintain a presence.  At school, too.  Your daughter is very lucky.

[skatingmum2]

I tend to sit in stands reading or on my laptop. My son generally gets on with his skating. The other day though he started landing some axels (first time in ages) and wanted me to watch. Coach and several parents eventually called me because he was desperate for me to look up and I was buried in my kindle.  There after - when he had what he felt was a "good one" he would punch the air, grin and see if I noticed. We let it happen just this once. He did come off the ice and told that just occasionally he would like me to watch him....

[DressmakingMomma]

First, let me state that I don't feel offended by anything said in this thread, but sometimes I post and write in a way that doesn't reflect what I mean, although I think it does when I hit the reply button. Sorry about that! The best part of these kinds of forums is that we can share perspective with people we may never meet otherwise and I love that. I appreciate another perspective, I wouldn't have thought about my daughter not liking to be watched intently during her lesson, I just assumed it was me supporting her in her sport. This thread opened an option for discussion with her - and it turns out she DOESN'T want me to watch - so I'm thinking she's really glad I read this!! Guess I get more reading time, now to find a good book for during lessons.

Second, I guess I was just trying to give the flip side about why some of us parents might feel the need to be more involved. Yes, the bully was very brazen about shoving, stomping on her feet to the point of bruising, speaking rudely, using intimidation, and taking her things because it had gone unchecked. There were lots and lots of incidents over a three year period and it was horrible. She was treated just terribly and the adults around her either didn't know how to protect her or didn't want to. Fortunately, the girls she has met through the ice rink have been very nice - ice skating has been such a great experience for a kid who had lost a lot of confidence. I'm VERY grateful, to say the least.

Again, I'm sorry to have posted in a manner that would indicate I was offended, and I can see how it would come off that way after re-reading what I had written. I have faced being judged as a parent so many times and in ways that are offensive - in the grocery store, at a restaurant, at school, by friends - but all who didn't understand or know about our family's special circumstances. I guess what I just really wanted to express was that it's good to talk about this kind of stuff and get one another's perspective so long as we're being respectful and not judging in the process. sorry

[Willowway]

it's good to talk about this kind of stuff and get one another's perspective so long as we're being respectful and not judging in the process.

Well said, applies to us all.

ETA - kudos to you as a Mom. Your daughter has the confidence to take on her lessons without you there every time and she has a Mom who listens to what she says. Wow - that's something! You will doubtless by called in, by her, to see progress and what new things she has learned - and I'd bet that your shared pride in those moments will compound her sense of self-reliance and independence. And you're there when bullies need to be managed. No little girl can ask for more.

[Loops]

sometimes I post and write in a way that doesn't reflect what I mean, although I think it does when I hit the reply button.

I feel like this a lot, too, even though I'll spend an inordinate amount of time composing what I hope is a respectful and meaningful response.  It's SO hard when seeing something in print to know the emotional charge behind words.  Also, having been criticized quite a bit for my own parenting choices (particularly since I live in a foreign country) I'm sensitive myself.  So speaking for myself, I wasn't sure if it was me that had pushed a button with you (or not), and I wanted to be upfront and apologize if that was the case.  From what I've seen on this forum, you've made some parenting choices that I respect greatly. 

The best part of these kinds of forums is that we can share perspective with people we may never meet otherwise and I love that. I appreciate another perspective,

I agree with this, too!  I learn a lot on these forums, and really appreciate the community.  Parenting is so hard. We want to respect, protect and empower our kids.  And the strategies needed to do that differs with each parent/child team.

[accordion]

First and foremost, you CANNOT ban the parents. You can and should set limits and enforce them. Determining which parents are the intrusive ones or simply accept that their child still needs them is the tricky part. The younger the child the more you have to accept the parents. Embrace them, get them to join in. Guaranteed that they will hate having to help out and will cease to be an issue. Or, they'll actually be useful. The older the child, you can make suggestions about watching a lesson once a term. Set a date and prepare special demonstration activities for that lesson.

I've been both the group teacher and parent of a child in lessons. I avoided a ballet school because they would not allow me to be visible to my then 4 year old. I stated that I would merely be "a presence in the room" and was told that I was not allowed in the building. Utterly ridiculous. I was instantly suspicious of what went on inside. I've been told that I cannot be in the room with my 13 year old daughter during choir rehearsal. She needed to know I was nearby so I asked if it was OK for me to be in the corridor instead. Two terms of me sitting outside with a thermos, blanket and a kindle and Miss 13 finally decided I should stay in the car. This was an activity where the distance to get there meant I had to hang around. No nearby cafes.

When I was the teacher (group and individual music lessons) I said that parents could be there but they had to be quiet! I told the kids to tell off their parents if Mums/Dads started talking. I used the "be silent" glare and raised eyebrow when needed. All conversation was directed to the kids during class, I was available to parents afterwards. I lay down the ground rules at the first lesson of each term. I would use that time to talk about my teaching style and when was the best time to ask questions.

If parents were really annoying I'd get them up to demonstrate to and with the kids. Most took it really well. I did suggest to one Mum that she might want a coffee from the cafe up the road, and that I would make sure little one was OK with me. After she returned I started the conversation with "rough day?" and we laughed. I would consistently reinforce that the parents were paying me to teach their child, and that they should let me do that, without interruptions.

TLDR version? Work out who is anxious and needs support. Give concrete suggestions. Determine who are intrusive and annoying, again, give concrete suggestions and set behaviour limits.

Good luck - dealing with annoying parents takes a lot of bottle.

[Sk8tmum]

Parents of young skaters must stay in the arena due to the age of their children. I have seen too many injuries where parents are needed and/or toileting accidents to be comfortable with absentee parents. That said we have three on the ice. We have different patterns of involvement  based on the skaters. We are sometimes called down to ringside for coach conferences. Otherwise we stay in the observation gallery and read. However for us skating is a shared experience. We talk about the practices and discuss what was accomplished or not accomplished. We give feedback on run throughs and laugh at funny events. If we weren't there to watch we would lose that camaraderie, and my kids would miss it.

One of my skaters was diagnosed with a serious medical condition while a teenager. I'm sure some observers would have found our pattern of behaviour during that period by observation intrusive. What it was was monitoring of health and a necessary evil.... But nobody knew that because it was our private business and with the understanding of coaches...

[amy1984]

The club that I skate at outside of winter season has a rule of no parental coaching from the boards but I see it being broken all the time.  Drives me nuts.  Takes the child's attention off of what's going on around them, blocks the gate on/off the ice, and the worst is... parent's are usually giving wrong advice   If it's just 'Sally, go practice some more', I'm fine with that, but 'do this' is out in a sport like skating.  More than once I've seen a particular parent give wrong advice to her kid. 

[twinskaters]

My girls just turned 8 and are in Basic 4 group lessons. I sit in the stands, behind the plexiglass with another friend whose daughters wanted to skate because mine do. We watch while we talk, which seems to be what most parents do at our rink. I've only ever seen one person yelling down to his kid, and he was a hockey Dad of a 4-year-old. Last year sometimes the girls started waving at me and stuff, and I worried about being a distraction. I would smile, wave back, and point to the instructor so they would refocus. Once they started getting more into it, they stopped doing that and now are very focused during their lessons. I have nothing to teach them and coaching from the boards is something I can't ever see happening, no matter how far they go with this sport.

That said, I get a lot of pleasure out of watching them skate and improve. I can't imagine missing that! But I do understand not every parent has respect for boundaries, and I can only imagine how frustrating it would be at any level to have a parent shouting down into the ice!


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[mamabear]

In regards to my own child, my lesson is right after hers on a freestyle session so I do think it's kind of weird that I'm out on the ice while she's in lesson but I would never intervene in the lesson.  I think the only time I've talked to her coach then is when DD was retying her skates and it was her last lesson with that coach.  She is a recreational skater only and just practices once or twice a week and I practice at the same time.  She prefers skating on public sessions (Basic 4 is her level so it still works) and while I might say "You need to practice your crossovers" I don't say "You need to do your crossovers in this way."   

In general, most of the parents at our rink either sit in the stands or in the concession area that has glass overlooking the rink.  I haven't seen parents yell at their kids. 

[TreSk8sAZ]

One of my rinks has very strict rules regarding parent involvement. I truly enjoy it because (although some parents try to get around it) for the most part it is a less stressful environment. Parents are only allowed in the stands or in the lobby. If a coach wants to speak with them, the coach goes to them. If the parent wants to speak with the coach, it either happens in between sessions or in between lessons. Parents are not to coach or communicate with their skaters from the stands - if a child needs something, they can get off and ask with permission from their coach (or we have hand signals, like I need water or something). Part of the reason for this is that on freestyle ice, you just can't have kids stopping and talking to their parents getting in the way, or watching their parents in the stands rather than what is going on around them. There are obviously exceptions for emergencies and the like, but rarely does that happen. We have level restrictions, but even the young kids that are on the ice with their coach usually are fine.

The other rink, while it has rules that parents can't coach, parents sometimes come into the hockey box or stand by the doors. They also can be seen in the lobby from the ice, so you have kids that are only doing things on one side so their parents can see them, going to the glass and getting their parents attention, or stopping by the doors to talk to their parents. It also lends itself more to kids getting called off the ice and yelled at for not practicing enough or whatever. It's a bit more frustrating and distracting than the other rink, although the sessions that I skate on usually aren't too bad. You definitely know which kids are having fun, and which kids are having all of the pressure put on them.

[DressmakingMomma]

Today we tried the mom not watching thing, and about 10 minutes into DD's warmup, she was asking me to come sit in the rink. Turns out she does like to look up and know I'm in the stands and I"m happy to be able to watch her skate. 

[4711]

A first step though.

[accordion]

Today we tried the mom not watching thing, and about 10 minutes into DD's warmup, she was asking me to come sit in the rink. Turns out she does like to look up and know I'm in the stands and I"m happy to be able to watch her skate. 

Both my daughter's just like to know that I'm there. One is 14, the other is 9. If I move or leave the stands for whatever reason, and they don't see me, both are concerned and ask me why after their lessons. If I tell them that I won't be there to watch they are fine. Doesn't happen often as I like to watch too 

[sampaguita]

Davis' and White's moms are always there with them at the rink. Virtue's and Moir's aren't. Both are top-performing dance teams, so I think to each his own?

[AgnesNitt]

Davis' and White's moms are always there with them at the rink. Virtue's and Moir's aren't. Both are top-performing dance teams, so I think to each his own?

Davis & White are adults who are celebrating their professional triumphs with their  family. That's different from a rink mom who can't skate, spending every moment at the door blocking traffic, or in the hockey box distracting a small child from a lesson. And mom's who coach their kid behind the coaches back? Geeze, unless she skates she should probably limit it to something like  "Don't forget your crossovers. Practice 10 of them."

[blue111moon]

My rink is so freezing cold that few of the parents can endure sitting in the stands for very long.  Most congregate in the lobby and watch through the windows.  It puts enough distance between skater and parent that both sides can feel comfortable without the coach feeling usurped. 

Personally, I don't mind parents watching and prefer that to the drop-off-and-go parents.  Injuries can happen anytime and, from the club official's standpoint, there's nothing worse than having a crying child (or bleeding child) on the ice when Mama is nowhere to be found.  It doesn't happen often - in my club, maybe once a year - but when it does, it's traumatic for everyone.

[DressmakingMomma]

When dd was taking group lessons, I don't think I ever saw a parent interfering by shouting out to their kids, sitting in the hockey boxes or blocking the doorways. Maybe it has to do with geographical location or something, but that just hasn't happened that I've seen and she took group at three different rinks. I guess it comes down to trusting your coach or skating program and whether or not you believe in their training methods.

When dd played soccer, that was entirely different - those parents were CRAZY - shouting so loud during games the kids couldn't even hear their coach.