What next for a non-jumper: ice dance, figures or MITF?

[sampaguita]

I'm still in Delta. I can't go past it yet since I can't do a bunny hop good enough for my current coach (who teaches strictly in the ISI format). As much as I love edges and turns, I won't be happy getting stuck in Delta or the early FS levels. I'd love to learn the dance step sequences in the higher FS levels and be able to compete as well.

Coach told me though that there are other options for non-jumpers:
1. do MITF exclusively until the edges are secure enough
2. go to ISI Dance 1
3. start ISI Figures track

I would really prefer #1, but Coach told me my competition prospects would be very limited since I will not be able to pass the FS levels without the requisite jumps.

As for #2: Compulsory dances aren't as exciting to watch as freestyle routines, but I'm thinking that with dances, you get to learn edges AND feel that you are progressing since the edges translate directly into dance routines (unlike with freestyle where the moves still have to be assembled). My only worry here is that my extension isn't good, and so is my stroking...

For #3: I seem to specialize in moving with low speed on a limited portion of the ice (haha!), so Figures might be for me, but then again almost no competition prospect here. No one here enjoys watching figures.


I guess all I want is to get better edges while feeling that at least I'm progressing in the levels. I don't get that feeling practicing edges and turns right now. What do you think? I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions. Are there other options I have missed?


P.S. If I were to grade my current skills on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the highest):

forward stroking: 6
backward stroking: 6
forward edges (outside/inside): 8
backward edges outside: 6
backward edges inside: 1
outside 3-turns: 5
inside 3-turns: 3
mohawks: 4 

[Doubletoe]

I would go for the Moves-in-the-field.  If you pass your Pre-Bronze MIF test, then you're halfway to becoming eligible to compete in Pre-bronze (since you need to pass the MIF test before they will allow you to take the FS test if you are testing under USFSA).  Meanwhile, your edges and basic skating skills are becoming more secure, which will give you a better basis for jumping.

[sampaguita]

I would go for the Moves-in-the-field.  If you pass your Pre-Bronze MIF test, then you're halfway to becoming eligible to compete in Pre-bronze (since you need to pass the MIF test before they will allow you to take the FS test if you are testing under USFSA).  Meanwhile, your edges and basic skating skills are becoming more secure, which will give you a better basis for jumping.

Thanks Doubletoe. I'm not in the US though and it's mainly ISI here (we have something like USFS but the lowest level is ISI FS3 equivalent). Does ISI have a similar test where one can get up the levels without doing the jumps?

[amy1984]

I'm not sure what the competition structure is like where you are... but since you mentioned that you don't jump and you want to compete, I would actually rec dance.  Solo dance is becoming a little more popular (though since I don't know where you are I don't know if it's in your area).  I would wonder not only IF there was a free skate competition structure without a jump requirement (other than maybe artistic or interpretive, but I know people usually jump in these programs as well), but also, even if jumps weren't required per se, what your experience would be going into a free skate comp without jumps.  So, since you don't jump and want to compete, I'd say dance is the way to go.  But I guess I also don't know whether you just don't jump now - ie: you don't know how - or if you don't have an interest in learning how to jump.

Even if dance competitions aren't your thing, I'd say taking dance tests is beneficial.  I didn't master a lot of turns and stuff until I started testing dance.  It really helps.  Your extension and other things will improve as you learn and at the beginning levels, no one expects you to skate like Tanith Belbin

If someone could educate me a bit more on ISI if I'm completely wrong here, that'd be great.  My knowledge is skate canada.

Also, have you thought about synchro?

[fsk8r]

Unless you just don't want to jump ever, looking at your skills list, I would think you've just not got to the point where you start learning to jump. Some coaches will teach it earlier than others, but until you've got the basic forward turns and backward edges solid, most coaches won't start teaching jumps.
I would recommend letting the coach lead your skating progression, but in general I would say that MITF come together faster than the jumps for a lot of adults.
Dance is a good option for improving your overall skating anyway. Although competition wise it will depend on how much solo dance there is available locally and whether you have to compete only compulsories or can you also do free dance. Finding a dance partner can be very difficult.

[sampaguita]

Thanks amy and fsk8r!

Unless you just don't want to jump ever, looking at your skills list, I would think you've just not got to the point where you start learning to jump.

I wish I could jump. And spin. I really do. Some people can jump and spin without getting their basics right, but not me -- my brain won't let me jump if it's sure I can't land the jump well. So all I've been working on (with my coach and by myself) so far are edges, 3-turns, and mohawks (finally got rid of my crossover obsession :p). At first it was okay, but now my progress is beginning to plateau. I can't get the proper check for 3-turns and mohawks, etc. I'm getting bored and frustrated already with the prospect that I'm going to be stuck in Delta, so I was looking for a way to learn my edges while still moving up the levels (any set of levels, that is, but preferably one with a performance/competition track).

I've been researching on ice dance lately. It seems to me that in dance, I can learn all my turns in the order that I need them, which I think is nice. Aside from this, the first two dances don't require any turns at all, and I thought it would be nice to improve my forward edges and crossovers while learning a routine. My only worry is that dance puts a lot of emphasis on stroking, extension and posture (which I am not good at -- oh well, what am I good at in skating? ). I'm not sure how strict (my coach will be with) ISI Dance requirements are in the early levels, and I'm afraid I might end up just as frustrated because I can't get the most basic dance moves right.

Synchro is not an option, unfortunately. There's no synchro team here, only a group of singles freestyle skaters skating in group numbers during shows.

I'm leaning more towards shifting to dance now, though. I'll see if I can get my coach to test me if I can be dance material.

[fsk8r]

Dance will help in some ways (it teaches you extension and posture - you don't have to be perfect to start dance!), but it won't fix everything. It is however a good thing to learn to do, but at this stage of your skating I wouldn't necessarily choose to limit yourself just to dance. Free dance requires you to be able to spin, so it's worth persevering with learning to jump and spin. I just wouldn't do anything exclusively. There's lots ot learn in skating and everything builds on another. So I would perhaps think about redefining your skating at this stage so that you're not so worried about passing the next level but work on increasing your skills. You might find that there are some harder things you can already do (but perhaps haven't tried) while there are some things you are currently working on which you can't do.
Skating is a journey and sometimes you need to measure your progress by things other than the predefined test levels. Going from a 1rev spin to a 2rev spin, might actually be a huge step forward for someone, while it may not be significant in the test scheme. But you need to learn to celebrate those improvements.

I have no ideas about the ISI levels, but have you tried things like bunny hops and lunges yet? How about shoot the ducks and forward spirals? Other than a bunny hop, all the others just require the ability to glide on one foot, but require the body position to be changed. Bunny hops are taught in the UK as the precurser to rotational jumps. They don't have to be big, but it's about getting used to moving from toe pick to blade.

[sampaguita]

Actually, when my coach and I discussed this it was right after a frustrating bunny hop lesson.   I have real difficulty with them. I think it's because I still remember my bunny hop accident years ago when I didn't land on my toepick and messed up my spine. I can do bunny hops if I bend my swinging leg, but my coach insists I do it with a straight leg, and with speed. Not working. Interestingly, I didn't have that same fear problem with the waltz jump and the half-flip (I've actually gone up to FS1 lessons with another coach who was more focused on going up levels quickly rather than mastering each skill. Current coach is the complete opposite.).

I don't plan to abandon freestyle completely. I still hope to jump and spin, but I think I just need to feel more comfortable moving on ice first before attempting jumping again. I still have most of my waltz jump, and I can still do 2-foot spins with around 3-4 revs, but I've plateaued on them, so I moved back to the basics. However, I'm beginning to hate the fact that I still can't do my mohawks and 3-turns right, despite being in this sport for 2.5 years.

Glad to know that I don't have to be "good enough" to start Dance. I hope my coach will be patient with me though!

[Live2Sk8]

Sampaguita, I'm working on flip and lutz and I never learned bunny hop.  I took USFS Learn to Skate lessons but went with the Adult Basic 1-4 track.  My coach tried to teach me the bunny hop but I have an irrational fear of it.  Coach tried to have me do a connecting step that had a forward on the toe pick action - I shrieked in terror when I tried it.  After we quit laughing hysterically, we did something that had backward toe pick action, no problem.  I don't know why I am so scared of it - I never got close enough to trying a bunny hop to even fall on it.  It's too bad you have to pass it to move on in ISI.

I'm also working on the 3 beginning ice dances.  I highly recommend learning them - it's fun to have a pattern to skate around the rink, and the steps, while 'simple', are not simple to do well!  I might have the worst swingrolls ever but I keep working on them.  Don't worry about perfect extension and posture - that comes with practice.  I don't even want to know what I look like now, but it's something else to have on the practice list.  Doing the same 4 things over and over is not fun, especially when you hit a plateau or have an injury (I've got both).

Good luck!  I also recommend learning moves in the field.  I don't think you will regret time spent learning any of these skills, although I do understand you'd like to compete.

P.S. I know skaters who do artistic events with no jumps.  You posted a competition video last year, didn't you?  I thought you did great, and you had jumps, spirals and spins if I am remembering correctly.

[icedancer]

I would recommend all three disciplines - dance, Moves and figures.

[Purple Sparkly]

I can do bunny hops if I bend my swinging leg, but my coach insists I do it with a straight leg, and with speed.

This technique is strongly suspect.  While I understand that coaches may have their own way, this method would be scrutinized by many highly respected coaches.  It is poor technique and is unsafe.  The bunny hop is a precursor to a waltz jump and axel.  Attempting axels with the free leg coming through straight would be hazardous.  Even if you never do axels, the bunny hop should mimic this action.  The free leg can straighten AFTER it passes through.

[FigureSpins]

This technique is strongly suspect.  While I understand that coaches may have their own way, this method would be scrutinized by many highly respected coaches.  It is poor technique and is unsafe.  The bunny hop is a precursor to a waltz jump and axel.  Attempting axels with the free leg coming through straight would be hazardous.  Even if you never do axels, the bunny hop should mimic this action.  The free leg can straighten AFTER it passes through.

I teach both versions because Slusher made a good case for flexibility and preparation.

However, most of the outspoken coaches on this subject of straight-vs-bent knee pass throughs preach "prep for axel" from the get-go, focus their clientele on competitive skaters.  Their goal is to have the skater blow through bunny hops and waltz jumps on their way to Axel-and-Beyond!  They save time by never teaching a straight-knee through leg.  Few teach recreational skaters, though.

A recreational skater gains an advantage by being able to perform the traditional straight-knee pass through during 6.0 events.  It just LOOKS nicer.  I don't see how it's unsafe as long as the takeoff technique is correct and weight transfer from side to side properly.  It actually helps develops quick recovery of the free leg in order to land properly, which is helpful on split and stag jumps as well as axis-changing jumps such as salchow, toe loop and waltz/axel. 

I don't see any real advantage to focusing on a bent-knee takeoff for non-competitive skaters; the bent-knee bunny hops aren't any higher, plus it encourages the skater to "crunch up" in the air, which leads to breaking at the waist on later jumps. 

FWIW, the ISI test standards do NOT specify whether the pass-through knee has to be bent or straight.  The op's coach is specifying it for some reason - perhaps the OP isn't bringing the free leg forward at all?

[jjane45]

I would recommend all three disciplines - dance, Moves and figures.

For everyone. Alas, only if we have all the ice time we want!

I was all freestyle until hitting the wall aka ISI FS5. I then started testing USFS which means MITF patterns are added. At that point I was already familiar with MITF at the first 2 adult levels thru group lessons. I don't mind doing them, but don't enjoy them in particular either.

Then I started ice dance and fell in love with it immediately despite being hopelessly tone-deaf. It just somehow gives me more sense of accomplishment. Have a great coach to partner with also helped.

Did just a tiny bit of figures here and there. They usually frustrate me lol.

Sadly all three of them need dead ice to practice effectively. I personally rank them as dance > MITF >> figures, YMMV

[icedancer]

For everyone. Alas, only if we have all the ice time we want!

I was all freestyle until hitting the wall aka ISI FS5. I then started testing USFS which means MITF patterns are added. At that point I was already familiar with MITF at the first 2 adult levels thru group lessons. I don't mind doing them, but don't enjoy them in particular either.

Then I started ice dance and fell in love with it immediately despite being hopelessly tone-deaf. It just somehow gives me more sense of accomplishment. Have a great coach to partner with also helped.

Did just a tiny bit of figures here and there. They usually frustrate me lol.

Sadly all three of them need dead ice to practice effectively. I personally rank them as dance > MITF >> figures, YMMV

Maybe I said this because I don't jump (anymore) and do all three of these disciplines. 

I don't have the luxury of skating as much as I want BUT I do have the luxury of skating during dead-ice times.  I have basically rewoven my career (as it were) so that I can skate during the day during dead ice times.  This was after YEARS of working the 8-6 5-6 days a week, skate when you can type of schedule.

We also have a dance session where we do all of the compulsory dances as a session - so everyone knows what you are doing and so we don't run into each other (well, not much anyway...)

But for the original poster you are probably right: Dance and Moves and then maybe Figures.

All three of these will teach you how to skate (which is what the OP needs to do) but dance is fun for sure!

[SynchKat]

As a dancer of course I would say do dance.  There are so many possibilities with dance--solo, partnered, social.  Also I have seen at the club where I skate very beginner skaters learning and testing dances.  Granted they only get as far as a couple of tests before having to improve their skills a lot but it is really nice to see that "pass" box checked on a test sheet.

Dance is also nice because you will be learning steps and patterns and eventually turns will get thrown in there.  You will learn a lot dancing, progressives, chasses, cross rolls, swing rolls, edge changes, eventually mohawks, three turns, choctaws.  I am sure you would learn the same in moves and to some extent figures but I would rather ice dance. 

Eventually when you are more advanced in dances you can travel to social ice dance weekends which I know a lot of people really enjoy. 

[AgnesNitt]

Figures is almost impossible to find a place to practice unless you're at one of the handful of rinks with patch sessions.

[icedancer]

Figures is almost impossible to find a place to practice unless you're at one of the handful of rinks with patch sessions.

I do figures all the time at Public Sessions - I have even done them in crowded (for Portland) publics - you just set up in the middle - and know that people will have no idea what you are doing and so you have to bail all the time.

But it can be done.

Patch sessions are great but there are alternatives!

[sampaguita]

Thanks for everyone's advice! If I'm going to do dance, I'm probably going to be the only dancer in my rink. Some of the coaches have done dance before, but not the students. Everyone's doing freestyle. I think that's going to make it more exciting. I'll talk to my coach again about my possible options and see if we can have a test dance session.

Sampaguita, I'm working on flip and lutz and I never learned bunny hop.

Live2Sk8, I wish I could do USFS.   Bunny hops are a required move in ISI, and my strictly-ISI coach needs me to do it well to give me a pass.

FWIW, the ISI test standards do NOT specify whether the pass-through knee has to be bent or straight.  The op's coach is specifying it for some reason - perhaps the OP isn't bringing the free leg forward at all?

Nope, my free leg goes forward. The way i do it is: initially straight at the back, then bends as it goes forward. Coach says I lose all the momentum from the supposed swing, and he wants the swing to be fully straight back to front. I think it's better technique-wise, but I find it more difficult to ensure that I land on my right toe pick when the toe pick points upward at the end of the swing (if it bends, the toe pick points a bit downward, so it's easier to land).

[taka]

but I find it more difficult to ensure that I land on my right toe pick when the toe pick points upward at the end of the swing

Erm, I'm no coach but I don't think your right foot should be pointed upwards (ie flexed) at the end of the swing if your free leg is straight at that point. Point your right toes/foot more by the end of the swing forwards instead. That means your right toe pick (still pointed) will then automatically be in the right position to land on as your legs come closer together again for the landing/ transfer to the L foot glide.

I got really frustrated trying to jump as an adult. Things I could do as a child, I now find pretty scary. As my coach teaches both free and dance, I started to learn dance too. It was something completely new to learn. I love it and now only do dance.

You don't have to have everything perfect to begin dancing - it will help you to improve your posture, timing, extension, edges and flow over the ice amonst other things. Even if you don't have tests available in dance locally, it will still help your skating overall. Nothing to stop you continuing to learn to jump either if you want to!

[icedancer]

Erm, I'm no coach but I don't think your right foot should be pointed upwards (ie flexed) at the end of the swing if your free leg is straight at that point. Point your right toes/foot more by the end of the swing forwards instead. That means your right toe pick (still pointed) will then automatically be in the right position to land on as your legs come closer together again for the landing/ transfer to the L foot glide.

I got really frustrated trying to jump as an adult. Things I could do as a child, I now find pretty scary. As my coach teaches both free and dance, I started to learn dance too. It was something completely new to learn. I love it and now only do dance.

You don't have to have everything perfect to begin dancing - it will help you to improve your posture, timing, extension, edges and flow over the ice amonst other things. Even if you don't have tests available in dance locally, it will still help your skating overall. Nothing to stop you continuing to learn to jump either if you want to!

Everything taka said -

And yes POINT YOUR TOES!!!

[treesprite]

Are you basing future jumping possibility on the fact that you aren't doing so great with bunny hop? If so, let me tell you this. I did not realize until returning to skating after so many years, how difficult and scary bunny hops are. I bet once you get past bunny hops and have stronger basic skills, you will be able to learn basic jumps much more easily.

Are there non-competition skate shows to enter? You should be able to do fun skate show programs without having to do jumps.

[sampaguita]

Thanks taka and icedancer for your bunny hop tips! I was able to run through the bunny hop off-ice and have finally understood how my coach wants it to look like. Of course on-ice it's a lot scarier, but coach said my on-ice bunny hop has improved (although not yet passing according to his standards).

@treesprite: I've gone as far as the waltz and the half-flip (my former coach has actually approved of my bunny hop, but my current coach is a lot more strict). However, I could not get them consistent -- I would always hesitate on the entrance. Working on my edges helped, but a LOT of work still has to be done. Bunny hops are the hardest of the three jumps that I've been taught, though. What was ISI thinking putting bunny hops in Delta? xD

Unfortunately, I couldn't get into any non-comp skate shows in my rink. Their basic requirement to get into a show is FS3, so if I wanted to perform, it would have to be during a test or a competition.


On a side note, I already started my first dance lesson. It was much harder than I thought it would be! Chasses were actually a bit scary, and I couldn't complete the pattern because of a lack in stroking power. After the lesson though, I could do chasses to the beat, although it's far from pretty.

The thought of having to do progressives make me shudder. My crossovers aren't that good yet, and to do them to a beat is really hard. I found the lesson fun though, and I hope the next lessons will be more fulfillling.

[SynchKat]

Good to hear you enjoyed your dance lessons.  With everything in skating it will come along with practice.

When doing things to a beat just slow it down.  If the beat is a 1,2,3,4 hold everything for 4 counts until it feels good and gradually speed it up.

[supra]

I'm really weird. I'd tell you to go ALL the way through MITF and then worry about jumping later. I feel very much more confident working exclusively on edging and turns. I have a weird weird imbalance of pretty good edging and turns (I can check my best turns fully around a hockey circle...) and the only 3 I have left now is my LBI and then all my 3s are done and then it's bracket and counters/etc. However my only jump is a waltz jump, and I can just barely 2 foot spin. I didn't even work on jumps and spins at all yet. Can do mohawks backward and forward from all edges, including forward left inside to right back inside. Fast/good stroker, too, though backwards I'm lacking compared to forwards.

Anyway, I'd say do all the MITF tests possible. I know a guy (crazy self taught guy like me) who can do double jumps and still has terrible edges and stroking. It's a waste. The edges are what impart any amount of grace and power in your skating and the foundation upon which your skating goes on. That guy even told me "Yeah don't do what I did." With him, he got skates and a coach wanted him to skate in circles, he fired the coach, bought a book learning to jump, and can do doubles now, but just looks horrendous to watch to the trained eye on the ice, because his flow and actual skating isn't good. You can in fact be able to do jumps and look terrible, and then only be able to do turns and stuff like that and look good, because the edging is what imparts your gracefulness to the ice. If you can't hold edges long enough, you're always gonna look terrible compared to someone that can hold them.

To me I feel learning all your edging and turns is most economical. It's like a pyramid and the edges are your base. No base, you can't build as big of a pyramid. So just concentrate ONLY on edges right now, edges and power production off ice, then later once your edges are mastered go for your jumps and spins. That's at least my plan.

[sampaguita]

supra, I totally agree! But can someone please enlighten me: why doesn't the ISI have MITF tests?