What next for a non-jumper: ice dance, figures or MITF?

[PinkLaces]

Glad to hear you are enjoying dance. It's my DD's favorite. She competed solo dance at several competitions including ISI Worlds. I think ISI level 1 is just chasses and progressives. At level 2, there is swing rolls and Dutch Waltz.  The coach can pass the skater in the individual dances through level 6. Then you need to have Panel of 3 judges. My DD took her dance 7 test (equivalent of USFS Silver) at a District test session before a competition.  She is 1/3 through the USFS Silver tests hoping to take the American Waltz  this summer.

FWIW, I find bunny hops kind of scary.  I have all my jumps through lutz. My coach wanted my to do bunny hops down the rink as a warm-up. They were super small and super slow. I wouldn't give up on jumping and spinning just yet. Could you hold the boards or your coach's hand to build your confidence?

[supra]

FWIW, I find bunny hops kind of scary.  I have all my jumps through lutz. My coach wanted my to do bunny hops down the rink as a warm-up. They were super small and super slow. I wouldn't give up on jumping and spinning just yet. Could you hold the boards or your coach's hand to build your confidence?

For some reason bunny hops I don't really get either. Maybe I should practice them anyway. I just went straight to waltz as it was easier to understand in my head. To me, no edges=no compute. Waltz to me was easy to understand as I just saw it as a 2 footed 3 turn.

One of the reasons you should just work on your edging and turns is (ala MITF tests,) it's what you need right now. You can think about being competitive and cool and passing tests and all that later. Right now you need to learn your edges. Then think about what you wanna do after. If you truly cannot gain the strength/power needed for freestyle, and would be content and happy doing dance, then do dance. But for NOW, you need edges. Whatever you do you'll need edges. So just work on your edging, turns and stroking, and once those are very good, figure things out as far as longterm things go.

One thing that really struck me and made me OCD about edges, my old coach/advice guy, he told me referring to people who don't learn edging well "They're setting themselves up to be on the fast track to mediocrity." Those are strong words (he's very blunt like that) but it's true.

[blue111moon]

supra, I totally agree! But can someone please enlighten me: why doesn't the ISI have MITF tests? 

ISI tests incorporate edges, turns and steps into each level to make them more fun for recreational skaters.  USFS created the Moves test structure to replace figures tests and create stronger competitive skaters.  Different goals, different structures.

[DrillingSkills]

I'd suggest dance and MITF for now, since the better your edgework is, the better you will be in freestyle. My coach has noted that since figures became obsolete, it has taken skaters much longer to get their Axel, because they don't have the necessary control of that FO edge on takeoff. I've been doing just dance and skills (Canada's solution to getting rid of figures, they're similar to MITF in some ways) for 2 years due to injury, but when I've tried the easier singles, I've noticed an increase in height and takeoff control. Of course, an increase in height comes with a change in landing timing, but that's ok, I'll take the anticipated landings for now

If you truly cannot gain the strength/power needed for freestyle, and would be content and happy doing dance, then do dance. But for NOW, you need edges.

I agree that edges are the foundation for everything, but dancers need excellent power to complete their patterns, too - I wouldn't say dancers are those who lacked the power and strength for freestyle. Dance is a different discipline, not necessarily just something to fall back upon for those who don't want to jump. JMO, of course.

[sampaguita]

I agree that edges are the foundation for everything, but dancers need excellent power to complete their patterns, too - I wouldn't say dancers are those who lacked the power and strength for freestyle.

I just learned this firsthand from my first lesson. Those patterns are hard to complete!!! If anything, dance needs a lot of speed, power, and control. The style may be different from freestyle, but the basics, I think, are the same.

ISI tests incorporate edges, turns and steps into each level to make them more fun for recreational skaters.  USFS created the Moves test structure to replace figures tests and create stronger competitive skaters.  Different goals, different structures.

I still think ISI should have an MITF track for non-jumpers. I like watching edges, not in the figures way, but as footwork sequences in freestyle programs. I think I'm not the only one who feels held back by the ISI system that requires jumps and spins at every level....maybe I should write a petition, lol!

[Isk8NYC]

I still think ISI should have an MITF track for non-jumpers. I like watching edges, not in the figures way, but as footwork sequences in freestyle programs. I think I'm not the only one who feels held back by the ISI system that requires jumps and spins at every level....maybe I should write a petition, lol!

Maybe you shouldn't.  These stupid, vague petitions are just Internet spam attractors.  There's someone who regularly tries to solicit signers for her "Bring Back Figures!" Petition - the resolution is so vague, it doesn't have a prayer.  I refuse to sign it because she doesn't even know what she wants!

ISI is fine the way it is - it serves a population that DOESN'T need Moves.  Just in case you didn't understand what the PP stated, the MIF patterns were developed by the USFSA to replace Figures. 

These are both US organizations competing for the figure skating market and the ISI is losing ground.  I know that you're in one of the ISI Asian countries, so you don't know how contentious the situation is here, with USFSA skaters belittling ISI skaters and ISI skaters pointing out the obvious (if you're not going qualifying, why pay the USFSA all that money?). Mandatory Moves tests are expensive and adding another set of tests to ISI takes away from their affordability approach.

While you may believe Moves are the greatest, many skaters don't agree.  Moreover, the ISI set up their rec skating program to allow competition events of any type, so a Moves event isn't out of the question.  Why reinvent the wheel?

I take it your nation's non-ISI skating federation doesn't have a Moves discipline.  Petition them to expand beyond their limited structure instead of the ISI. 

[sampaguita]

While you may believe Moves are the greatest, many skaters don't agree.  Moreover, the ISI set up their rec skating program to allow competition events of any type, so a Moves event isn't out of the question.  Why reinvent the wheel?

I am aware of the Footwork competition in ISI, but even then, you'd have to pass the actual level to qualify. For example, to have a footwork program for FS2, you need to have all the FS2 jumps and spins to pass the test. So theoretically, even if you do know the footwork for FS10 but you don't  know how to do bunny hops, you'll never be able to perform a Footwork routine.

Mandatory Moves tests are expensive and adding another set of tests to ISI takes away from their affordability approach.

What I was suggesting was not that ISI copy the USFS testing system, where you have separate MITF and Freeskate tests. I was think something more like Moves 1-10, similar to Figures 1-10 or Dance 1-10 or Couple 1-10. You don't need to do everything, but nothing prevents you from spending more money and doing all disciplines. I don't see how that can be bad for ISI.

I take it your nation's non-ISI skating federation doesn't have a Moves discipline.  Petition them to expand beyond their limited structure instead of the ISI. 

They don't. The federation was made solely for the purpose of sending competitive skaters to ISU events. Everyone interested in ISU is required to start out in ISI (I think that's part of being an ISI member rink), and then "graduate" to the federation when they start working on axels and doubles. Because of that, we don't have anything analogous to USFS Basic Skills. However, as in the US, joining the federation is more expensive than going through ISI.

They also don't accept adult skaters in their testing/competition scheme, probably because no adult has yet showed interest in joining the ISU Adult Worlds. I would like to petition them to change that someday, but I'd need to have advanced skating skills by then if my petition is to have any chance of being granted.

Maybe you shouldn't.  These stupid, vague petitions are just Internet spam attractors.

Geez, Isk8NYC, you seem to take things way too seriously.

[PinkLaces]

For some reason bunny hops I don't really get either. Maybe I should practice them anyway. I just went straight to waltz as it was easier to understand in my head. To me, no edges=no compute. Waltz to me was easy to understand as I just saw it as a 2 footed 3 turn.

My new coach uses bunny hops as a warm up, because she feels that they help with jumps...the roll off the toe pick on the edge jumps.

[Isk8NYC]

Geez, Isk8NYC, you seem to take things way too seriously.

People who start these useless petitions invariably make pests out of themselves by interrupting real conversations with "Sign my petition!" on any open channel.  It's really annoying. 

[AgnesNitt]

supra, I totally agree! But can someone please enlighten me: why doesn't the ISI have MITF tests? 

Because ISI is a recreational skating assosciation and it does that vey well. MITF tests are part of the USFSA qualifications for preparing and identifying skaters with sufficient skills for national and international competitions. IOW, if a kid can't pass MITF, they don't have the skills to compete.

MITF for adults and non-competitive skaters fills other roles (maybe ego, maybe pass tests to qualify as a coach) but for USFSA it's basically a money thing (as it has been explained to me). 

[sarahspins]

So theoretically, even if you do know the footwork for FS10 but you don't  know how to do bunny hops, you'll never be able to perform a Footwork routine.

"Theoretically" this would never happen - why even suggest it?  Honestly I feel like this thread is making a mountain out of a molehill.  If you can't do bunny hops, work on them until you can.. it's really that simple.  Don't make excuses and lament about how you have "no options" in ISI's test structure just because you have a coach who expects more than the bare minimum.  You do have options, you're just looking for an easy way out because you don't want to put in the time to learn to do them well enough for your coach.

I'm going to say it because it seems that everyone is to polite to do it, but honestly most of the things you have "struggled" to learn are really really really REALLY basic and not things that should trip up most skaters for this long or make them feel like they can't continue in the test structure (if you were at FS4 and feeling this way about FS5, that would be different, but you're not at a level where you should get "stuck").. most people work hard to learn new skills, and once they do, they move on to other skills.  They don't obsess for two years and post countless threads and videos for very very simple skills.  Just practice more, and spend less time complaining/obsessing, and maybe you'll make more progress.

If you want things to work on OTHER than what ISI offers you there is absolutely no one stopping you.  Not being able to take USFS tests shouldn't stop you from learning the patterns and practicing them if you wanted to... the first 2 tests are fairly straightforward and easy to work on independently.   

[Skittl1321]

I agree with "work on bunny hops until you get them...".  If being able to compete is what is important.

However, if you can't pass a level and are basically stuck at not competing ever, than tell your coach what you want to learn, skip that skill and just skate.  Can you do exhibitions?  Could you even just learn a program for fun to practice?  Screw the levels.

I've reached the point where I can't test anymore.  I could have stuck dance out a bit, but the time between test sessions was so long that it just cost too much money to train and upkeep dances. So  I dance them for fun, and do freeskate for fun.  No more tests and no more competing.  It kind of sucks because I like to test, but I reached my max.  I still have a lot of fun going to the rink to skate (though sadly, my coach moved...)

[sarahonice]

I'm still in beginning freestyle stages, but what I've learned about skating is: You'll only improve as much as you try. I don't mean the OP isn't trying, but I've been reading her posts and watching video clips and it seems there's a reluctance to move on to more advanced skills. Perhaps it's a case of being debilitated by perfectionism?

I'm going to say it because it seems that everyone is to polite to do it, but honestly most of the things you have "struggled" to learn are really really really REALLY basic and not things that should trip up most skaters for this long or make them feel like they can't continue in the test structure (if you were at FS4 and feeling this way about FS5, that would be different, but you're not at a level where you should get "stuck").. most people work hard to learn new skills, and once they do, they move on to other skills.  They don't obsess for two years and post countless threads and videos for very very simple skills.  Just practice more, and spend less time complaining/obsessing, and maybe you'll make more progress.

So I think the above comments make sense. I've experienced rather fast progress for an adult skater, and most of that I attribute to my coach, who doesn't let me psych myself out (by thinking, "Omg I'm not supposed to be ready for that yet!"). She urges me to move forward always, not so much that I injure myself but definitely on a constant trajectory to start the next thing. My most valuable lesson has been that you don't have to master the first skill before attempting to learn the second -- the second will more likely help improve the first. So maybe the OP could benefit from moving forward rather than getting "stuck" on the bunny hop. I'm only at pre-bronze level but I'm working on things from bronze, silver, and gold levels. It keeps things motivating.

[jjane45]

if you were at FS4 and feeling this way about FS5, that would be different, but you're not at a level where you should get "stuck"...

I agree with most of your post but would like to comment on this. The "wall" is different for every skater, and it could be the double axel or the backward crossover. I have friends who work hard, very hard and not achieve what OP has achieved beautifully in comparable time frame.

That being said, maybe try enjoy skating in a different way. Don't let the testing structure define you as a skater   With time and practice you'll get there!

[sampaguita]

You do have options, you're just looking for an easy way out because you don't want to put in the time to learn to do them well enough for your coach.

I think you're missing my point, sarahspins. Let me explain. My learning style is just different from most: I am only able to jump when I have secure edges. It's a handicap, but one that I have to deal with in the meantime. That's why I was looking for ways to improve my edges (which will eventually help my jumps), but at the same time, be able to test or compete (anything performance-related). If you read my OP, that was all this was supposed to be about. I wasn't lamenting about the lack of options -- if you look at my OP, my coach actually gave me three. I have taken the dance option, and so far I am enjoying it.

What probably caused the confusion was how I "lamented" about the lack of an ISI MITF track, and it seems to be a more sensitive issue that I thought it would be. I just thought something like Moves 1-10 would be nice to add to the ISI structure, where skaters can perform programs without jumps or spins, but without the compulsory patterns of Dance or Figures. I don't see why that is a bad thing to say.

They don't obsess for two years and post countless threads and videos for very very simple skills.

Point taken. Thank you for your honesty.

So maybe the OP could benefit from moving forward rather than getting "stuck" on the bunny hop.

Yes, that is exactly what I am doing now. I have decided to do dance and study other things, which will hopefully help me in my jumps in the future. I don't practice dance exclusively though -- every now and then I do a half-flip or two-foot spin, or I practice my mohawks and 3-turns.


Thanks to everyone for your suggestions!

[Query]

Entry level ISI WeSkate and USFSA LTS classes are mass market group lessons, designed to please the majority market. That majority are kids whose play outside the rink includes running and jumping. Neither jumping nor falling is a big psychological problem for that majority.

USFSA has made Moves classes popular by requiring competitive skaters in other disciplines to do moves.

But Many rinks have "adult classes", typically designed for adults who don't want to jump. You could ask around local rinks to see if classes are available. They are a lot of fun.

In my neck of the woods, adult-oriented ISI group lessons would make economic sense. I have no idea whether that is true in other geographic areas.

BTW, Dance can be frustrating if you don't find a partner. Most would-be ice dancers don't. Moves has one really big plus. You can practice in almost any session that isn't too crowded. Not true of Dance.

[jjane45]

USFSA has made Moves classes popular by requiring competitive skaters in other disciplines to do moves.

For the test skaters as well, not just those who compete

[treesprite]

IMO,  MITF tests are a way to prove basic skills that should have all been taught before the teaching of advanced skills (such as jumps and spins) but were not, because USFS does not have any mandatory basic skills per-requisites. Why on earth are forward crossovers at the same test level as jumps?

[JSM]

Technically, you 'learn' forward crossovers in what, Basic 4?  This is before you learn to do any jumping, even half jumps or bunny hops.  Though MITF are prerequisites if you have to pass them to compete freeskate, right?

Crossover and footwork proficiency improves with time and practice, and MITF will hold the same elements to a higher standard as you move up in levels. 

I personally am becoming a better skater (flow, footwork, posture, edge security) from working my way through the MITF tests, though it is an expensive venture!

[amy1984]

I'm going to say it because it seems that everyone is to polite to do it, but honestly most of the things you have "struggled" to learn are really really really REALLY basic and not things that should trip up most skaters for this long or make them feel like they can't continue in the test structure (if you were at FS4 and feeling this way about FS5, that would be different, but you're not at a level where you should get "stuck").. most people work hard to learn new skills, and once they do, they move on to other skills.  They don't obsess for two years and post countless threads and videos for very very simple skills.  Just practice more, and spend less time complaining/obsessing, and maybe you'll make more progress.

I'm going to second this in a more friendly way

You seem to get stuck on things that you're not really stuck on if that makes sense.  Your skills look good for someone at your level.  If you wait until your three turns look like those of an Olympian before moving on to the next skill, you're going to feel stuck.  Figure skating builds as you go - you learn the basics of something and move on and the next set of things in line improve upon the things you already learned.

I think you'd enjoy the sport a lot more, feel as if you're progressing more, and have more FUN if you didn't obsess so much over having perfect cross cuts or perfect edges.  When was the last time you saw someone learning a toe loop with edges that looked like Kurt Browning's?  Never.  Because no one would ever progress if they completely perfected one skill before moving onto the next.

I think this is a bit of a 'perfectionist' tendency and I understand it will be hard to change that, but I really think it would be beneficial to start holding yourself to a more reasonable standard.  I know you're thinking 'but that's just how I am - I need these things to be perfect before I can move on', and I get that.  But let's say that you banish that thought for awhile and see how it goes   See how it feels.  See if you make some progress and if that feels good.  I think you might be surprised.

If you don't want to jump, that's fine.  Lots of adults don't.  But if you DO - or if you want to progress on other skills like dance or moves - then it's time to let the need to be perfect go.

We can debate ISI vs USFS and other programs and moves vs. dance until we're all blue in the face.  But that isn't the issue here.

[Clarice]

I agree with Amy.

When I started skating, my first group instructor was a real perfectionist, who believed that each thing had to be perfect before you could move on to the next.  He believed that each skill built on the one before, and so you couldn't expect to do the next thing well until the first thing was perfect.  This may be true.  But it was REALLY BORING.  He wouldn't let us go on to anything else until our stroking was perfect, and nobody's stroking was ever good enough in his opinion. 

So I promoted myself to the next class.  People who stayed with him never got past stroking, gliding, and maybe crossovers.  I've passed Gold MIF, Silver Free, and am on my Pre-Silver dances.  Am I a perfect skater?  No.  But I'm continuing to progress, always going back to improve my basics, and am having a whole lot more fun.  I'm a perfectionist, too, but sometimes there's something to be said for focusing on the process rather than the outcome.