Jackson Debut Boot

[Sibelius]

I've been skating in them since early August but with the original LCF sole since that's what it was offering at first. I am perfectly happy in them though I wish the slightly lighter rating had been available when I got them since they might be a little stiff for me.

Previously I'd broken down 2 Riedells in a year. The 229 and the 910LS so I'm surprised how stiff these still feel after nearly 5 months.

I will say this. The Debut is at about the price point where you really don't have to many options and you probably don't spend much time agonizing over which skates to get. You either get Jacksons or Riedells and many people probably still want the boot/blade package like the Freestyle/Competitor offered.

Did you mean the LCL sole?  From my daughters fitter I learned that you can choose LCL, LCF or other Fusion sole colors (sorry, colours!) on the Debut Fusion.  I confirmed with Jackson:

"We can make Debut with LCL, LCF or different coloured Fusion soles.  Completion timeframe and pricing can be confirmed through your retailer." 

Her Fitter said 4-6 weeks and $85 for different Fusion soles, not sure about LCL, or LCF costs.

[eonice]

Just a quick update...

So I was finally able to get my foot in properly. Apparently I was being much too gentle with them. Anyway, the fit is great except for the heel, which is being crushed right above the sole where the padding is peculiarly minimal. These boots are ridiculously stiff, even though they are rated as being only marginally more so than the Freestyles which I'm accustomed to. The odd thing is, for all the discomfort, I am able to skate 5-6 hours at a time without any lasting damage to my feet even though it feels like they're causing bruises. I'm slowly recovering my ability to bend knees, but most of the time I just feel/hear a hard *clink* whenever I take a step--I don't feel any connection with the ice anymore. Hard to believe the higher end boots are twice as stiff as this one...

[Query]

So I was finally able to get my foot in properly. Apparently I was being much too gentle with them. Anyway, the fit is great except for the heel, which is being crushed right above the sole where the padding is peculiarly minimal. These boots are ridiculously stiff, even though they are rated as being only marginally more so than the Freestyles which I'm accustomed to. The odd thing is, for all the discomfort, I am able to skate 5-6 hours at a time without any lasting damage to my feet even though it feels like they're causing bruises. I'm slowly recovering my ability to bend knees, but most of the time I just feel/hear a hard *clink* whenever I take a step--I don't feel any connection with the ice anymore. Hard to believe the higher end boots are twice as stiff as this one...

If fit right, it should not bruise your foot, and shouldn't hurt.

May I suggest a few things?

1. Push really really hard in the heel. Not just down so your foot touches the bottom of the boot, but also back so your foot pushes back and touches the back of the boot. People commonly need to kick on the floor with the back of the sole of the boot - especially if they have certain foot shapes.

2. Ask the fitter to do a heat mold. This site:

  http://www.jacksonultima.com/static/images/debut_boot_flyer.pdf

says that the Debut boots are heat-moldable.

This video

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhZLOEw7o5Q

says Jackson heat molding material now includes something in the heel counter, which should help.

Some of us have heat molded our own boots, but the dealer has the real equipment, and most of them will mold for free if you bought it there.

3. If that isn't sufficient, and your fitter has no other ideas, try contacting Jackson (not just the fitter or seller) to see if they have any, or have a fit warranty.

4. If that doesn't help, try taking out the insoles.

5. If none of those help, we can look for other ideas, like punching (stretching) the boots at the desired location.

BTW, pretty much all figure boots get less stiff with time. Expect them to need a break in period if that bothers you.

Also - very high end boots are really, really, stiff. Many of us can't bend new ones perceptively with our hands. If your shop hasn't any to look at, look at their high end hockey boots. Hard to believe that people can bend either at all with their feet, but somehow, they do. Also, some of the difference between a higher end boot and what you have (and Debuts ARE rated for competitive use), might possibly be how long the stiffness lasts before it begins to break down, rather than initial stiffness. (I'm basing that on a quote from a book on boat-building, not skates, so it might not apply.)

Others may disagree, but, AFAICT, the only figure boots that really need to bend perceptibly are ice dance boots - and only if you deliberately pronate and supinate to deepen edges. Especially if the boots have some padding.

[Sibelius]

I asked 2 sources about the fit, Jackson and Kinzie's Closet.  Both said the outer sole is shorter, but the fit guides are the same, based on the Elite last sizing.  My daughter is hopefully going to get fitted tomorrow.  We'll see what the recommendation is, if it's really that stiff (and the original Debut was way too stiff) we'll look at the other Jackson alternatives, an original Freestyle or another Elle (she HATES the look of the new Fusion models of those skates)

By the way, Kinzie's told me the original Debut is on closeout.

[tstop4me]

I asked 2 sources about the fit, Jackson and Kinzie's Closet.  Both said the outer sole is shorter, but the fit guides are the same, based on the Elite last sizing.  My daughter is hopefully going to get fitted tomorrow.  We'll see what the recommendation is, if it's really that stiff (and the original Debut was way too stiff) we'll look at the other Jackson alternatives, an original Freestyle or another Elle (she HATES the look of the new Fusion models of those skates)

By the way, Kinzie's told me the original Debut is on closeout.

Yeah, I just noticed that the original Debut is no longer listed on the Jackson website (only the Debut Fusion); and that Kinzie's Closet has the original Debuts on clearance as discontinued models.  A product lifecycle of ~6 months?

[Sibelius]

Yeah, I just noticed that the original Debut is no longer listed on the Jackson website (only the Debut Fusion); and that Kinzie's Closet has the original Debuts on clearance as discontinued models.  A product lifecycle of ~6 months?

Must not have been selling. I never saw one on the ice at the 2 rinks mine skates.  Higher levels in Edea, or Harlick, lower in Riedell or Freestlye and Elle's. Missed their mark on that one. Here's hoping the Fusion is right for mine. Find out tomorrow.

[Sibelius]

For those interested, we ordered a pair of Debut Fusion Standards on Saturday.  None in stock to try on, hope they fit ok, she's about maxed out the Elle's. She did try on an Elle Fusion made on the same last for sizing, so that's something I guess. I learned I need to ask 2 questions now, are they tight? and are your toes curled?  They put the boots on the stretcher and maybe bought another week or two.  Tried taking the sock liners out and she said it didn't make a difference.  16 days until her Preliminary MITF test so not great timing.  Another item on these which seems odd since I read someone commenting about the shorter soles is the blade size is different.  The chart for the old Debut's has a 3 1/2 boot with an 8 1/2 blade, both the fitter and Jackson say Fusion is an 8 3/4 blade for the 3 1/2.  I've got both, but will be interested in why the difference when we get them.  Hated to order unseen or untried, but didn't have a choice.

Oh, and she started working on her Axel on Saturday. Again, not great timing for new boots.

[tothepointe]

I think they are switching completely to the Debut Fusions which was always the plan. I was told they were in the works when I bought mine. I might pick up a second pair of the Debuts if they are on clearance to put PIC skate frames on.

They are a decent boot so far as Jackson's go. Better than the Freestyle in fit.

After nearly 6 months they are finally broken in but the tongue feels too stiff. They are changing the shape of my feet though so I'm not sure if long term I will stay but my foot feels more secure.

[tothepointe]

I think they are switching completely to the Debut Fusions which was always the plan. I was told they were in the works when I bought mine. I might pick up a second pair of the Debuts if they are on clearance to put PIC skate frames on. Edit they are only offering a $20 discount so not a deep clearance price

They are a decent boot so far as Jackson's go. Better than the Freestyle in fit.

After nearly 6 months they are finally broken in but the tongue feels too stiff. They are changing the shape of my feet though so I'm not sure if long term I will stay but my foot feels more secure.

[Sibelius]

Can I ask you what size, sole length and blade length you have?  Hope it's not too personal  .  The reason is that Jackson is telling me that for the Debut Fusion size 3 1/2 the sole measures 8 13/16, and the blade required is an 8 3/4, whereas the original Debut, with the same sole length calls for an 8 1/2.  The math on that just doesn't work if you leave a 1/4" gap as usual (I think), so somebodies chart is off (actually Jackson's is a mess).  Her fitter will put the proper blade size on (I have and 8 1/2 and an 8 3/4) but I'm curious about what the real world measurement is.

[tothepointe]

6.5 C/D with a 9.5" blade

[Sibelius]

6.5 C/D with a 9.5" blade

Thanks, that's what shows on the chart for that size.  I think someone screwed up on the Debut chart, doesn't make sense that for a 3 1/2 to have the same sole length as the 4 1/2 but one size takes an 8 1/2 blade and the other an 8 3/4.  Boots arrive on Wednesday and will be measured, hope she's skating in them by next Saturday.

[felkar]

Have had Debut for 4 months and my daughter absolutely loves them, however, they are being replaced with the Fusions because the lining has totally broken down with big holes.  Several of the clubs skaters are having same problem.  She is not happy breaking in new ones in middle of competition season.  We do not like the new soles but have no choice.

[tstop4me]

Have had Debut for 4 months and my daughter absolutely loves them, however, they are being replaced with the Fusions because the lining has totally broken down with big holes.  Several of the clubs skaters are having same problem.  She is not happy breaking in new ones in middle of competition season.  We do not like the new soles but have no choice.

Have you checked with Jackson whether the boots are still covered under warranty? 

Why do you not like the new soles?  Cosmetic, or functional?

[Sibelius]

Have had Debut for 4 months and my daughter absolutely loves them, however, they are being replaced with the Fusions because the lining has totally broken down with big holes.  Several of the clubs skaters are having same problem.  She is not happy breaking in new ones in middle of competition season.  We do not like the new soles but have no choice.

Jackson replaced my daughters' Artistes with a broken boot hook under the 6 month warranty, this sounds far more serious.  I know the issue is breaking in, not just replacement, but at least she should get a new pair.  You can get any sole that Jackson makes on those Debuts (LCL, LCF, Fusion in any of their colors), the retail cost is $85 and the wait is 6-8 weeks, but I know the wait is not possible in competition season.

[Query]

I didn't realize it was possible for the lining to break down. Is that a problem anyone else has seen before, on any boot?

[FigureSpins]

I usually recommend applying athletic tape with a bit of stretch to cover the worn spots until the skates can be repaired or replaced.  I've seen it on Jackson and SP-Teri linings - usually, it starts to "pill" (like a sweater) and then wears thin before starting to tear.  It's not typically within a warranty period.  Since it's often the skaters who have the smelliest skates, we wondered out loud if it's caused by excessive moisture inside the boot.  (Caveat: none of the boots I've seen are Debut models.)

Usually when the skates get to that point, the padding has also worn down a bit, so a little heavier sock helps fill the gap and protect the foot.

[Query]

Oh. So it might be rot? I wonder if this mostly happens to people who keep there skates inside a bag, box, suitcase or trunk, or don't take it inside out of their car to dry off, to warm up in the winter, and not to overheat in the summer.

felkar, could any of these apply to your daughter?

Perhaps I haven't run into the issue because my feet don't sweat much, and I don't put my skates inside anything.

[tstop4me]

I didn't realize it was possible for the lining to break down. Is that a problem anyone else has seen before, on any boot?

I had the lining break down on an old pair of Riedell Royals, which were leather lined (I think with calfskin).  When I was working full time, I could only skate once per week.  So I had those boots for almost 10 yrs, and they were fine.  Then I re-arranged my schedule and starting skating 5 times per week.  After two years of the more intensive skating, the lining on the old boots cracked and exposed the padding within. 

I then got the Jackson Elite Suede, which is padded with foam and lined with fabric of some sort.  I was concerned that the lining wouldn't hold up as well as leather.  But I've skated with them for a full 3 yrs now (5 times per week), and so far they're still in good shape.

[Bill_S]

I've had my Riedell Gold Star skates for 11 years, and they show it. They are broken in, comfortable, and work fine as-is. I feel no limitations.

But I don't do doubles or triples.



The previous Gold Stars were worn out within 5 years. I wore through the leather lining in this case. I was skating 12-14 hours per week then.

[tstop4me]

I've had my Riedell Gold Star skates for 11 years, and they show it. They are broken in, comfortable, and work fine as-is. I feel no limitations.

But I don't do doubles or triples.



The previous Gold Stars were worn out within 5 years. I wore through the leather lining in this case. I was skating 12-14 hours per week then.

The details of the breakdown of your Riedell linings are remarkably close to those of mine ... right down to the blue padding peeking out.

[eonice]

If fit right, it should not bruise your foot, and shouldn't hurt.

May I suggest a few things?

1. Push really really hard in the heel. Not just down so your foot touches the bottom of the boot, but also back so your foot pushes back and touches the back of the boot. People commonly need to kick on the floor with the back of the sole of the boot - especially if they have certain foot shapes.

2. Ask the fitter to do a heat mold. This site:

  http://www.jacksonultima.com/static/images/debut_boot_flyer.pdf

says that the Debut boots are heat-moldable.

This video

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhZLOEw7o5Q

says Jackson heat molding material now includes something in the heel counter, which should help.

Some of us have heat molded our own boots, but the dealer has the real equipment, and most of them will mold for free if you bought it there.

3. If that isn't sufficient, and your fitter has no other ideas, try contacting Jackson (not just the fitter or seller) to see if they have any, or have a fit warranty.

4. If that doesn't help, try taking out the insoles.

5. If none of those help, we can look for other ideas, like punching (stretching) the boots at the desired location.

BTW, pretty much all figure boots get less stiff with time. Expect them to need a break in period if that bothers you.

Also - very high end boots are really, really, stiff. Many of us can't bend new ones perceptively with our hands. If your shop hasn't any to look at, look at their high end hockey boots. Hard to believe that people can bend either at all with their feet, but somehow, they do. Also, some of the difference between a higher end boot and what you have (and Debuts ARE rated for competitive use), might possibly be how long the stiffness lasts before it begins to break down, rather than initial stiffness. (I'm basing that on a quote from a book on boat-building, not skates, so it might not apply.)

Others may disagree, but, AFAICT, the only figure boots that really need to bend perceptibly are ice dance boots - and only if you deliberately pronate and supinate to deepen edges. Especially if the boots have some padding.

Update: I got them punched out and the heel remolded, and they're actually feeling okay now. Thank you!

[Query]

Update: I got them punched out and the heel remolded, and they're actually feeling okay now. Thank you!

I'm so glad! Enjoy your new boots.

Punching (stretching) leather can be temporary if it is too large a stretch. You may occaisionally need to redo it. If that happens too often, you should get your own hardware (e.g., ball and ring pliers, also called hoke and ball pliers or bunion stretchers). Also, avoid leaving in hot car, because heat causes leather to unstretch.

[princesshockey]

Update: I got them punched out and the heel remolded, and they're actually feeling okay now. Thank you!

I just picked up mine today, good holy mother of zeus the heel is tight!!  Might have to go the route you did at some point.  Almost seems like I can't get my heel *down* below the narrow part to lock it in...like it's just all narrow at the bottom instead of widening any at the bottom.  Switched from Freestyles that were too large for me.

[tereskacz]

hello,

can anybody compare the padding of new Freestlyle and Debut? is Debut more padded than freestlyle? is there any difference except stiffness and different shape/last?