Jackson Debut Boot

[tothepointe]

I'm gonna need a split-width Freestyle. I currently have a 4.5B, and though the heel is good, the ball is too narrow.

To those who have tried it: would a R-size Debut be enough for me, or do I have to go with split width as well?

The Debuts have a narrower heel than the Competitors. I have previously worn the Freestyles and tried out the competitors before I settled on the debuts and it is a different fit. It depends on how much more snug you need the heels to be. For me, the difference in the fit was enough. Best bet is just to get a fitting, try and them and see how it goes.

[tothepointe]

Absolutely agree.  The real test is how well skaters like them after they've skated on them (which is why I asked for clarification on Christy's Post #14).  Although, if skaters are turned off by them for whatever reason upon casual inspection or handling in the shop, they won't buy them in the first place.  One skate pro told me that many of his teen girl customers (a large chunk of his figure skate clientele) shy away from Jacksons because they look clunky but are drawn to Edeas because they look so cool.

I'm not a teenager but this was totally me. I swore I wouldn't consider Jacksons again because they looked like golf cleats. But I'm happy with how my foot looks in these. A little sleeker thanks to the wrap system.

One ice went well today no real issues from the boots. Now, of course, I went down from a 10" blade to a 9 1/2" thanks to the heel height/foot pitch being higher than my Reidells and just a smaller size in general. The heel is slightly higher/has a different pitch compared to my older Freestyles.

I might shoot off a message to Jackson and see if I can get an answer on what last they are using. Either the elite, the one they use for the lower end sets or something new. It would be nice to know.

[tothepointe]

Break in on the Debut has been very minimal and after 5-6 sessions on the ice I have forgotten they are new apart from not tying all the way to the top. Upper seems cut resistant in what would have been large gouges in my other boots are just small thin cuts.

In general, I'm pretty pleased with the switch.

[Query]

One skate pro told me that many of his teen girl customers (a large chunk of his figure skate clientele) shy away from Jacksons because they look clunky but are drawn to Edeas because they look so cool.

Does "clunky" just mean it is wider at the toe? In which case, it might appeal to girls with wide toes? And that "cool" means narrow-toed - comfortable to some people, painful to others? And/Or does "clunky" mean heavy?

[FigureSpins]

Break in on the Debut has been very minimal and after 5-6 sessions on the ice I have forgotten they are new apart from not tying all the way to the top. Upper seems cut resistant in what would have been large gouges in my other boots are just small thin cuts.

In general, I'm pretty pleased with the switch.

Good to know. Do you have width or insole issues?

[tothepointe]

I THOUGHT I had insole issues until I switched. I was using Riedell R-Fit insoles with all the doodads but thus far I've been fine with the Jackson footbeds.I had been having unbearable arch pain on my left foot before. That has gone completely thus far.

I have a wide forefoot but I also have tapered toes so usually as long as a skate is heat molded for it's fine at the ball of the foot without punching anything out.

What I have had issues with is a higher instep which makes it harder to lace in that area and heels that slip. So far the better wrap system and the slightly narrower heel have solved that problem. For my instep, I can see that the Premiere or Elite might be even better but are too stiff for me at this point.

My assessment is it's a nice little boot for those in between needing a boot and blade set and needing a more "serious" boot.

Having worn the Freestyles in the past and having had tried on the Competitors at the same time my assessment is that it's a different fit/last with a slightly narrower heel but the same width at the ball.

Looks wise it's a big improvement on the Freestyle. My feet look a little sleeker and the reinforcement adds a visual reference for me to help tie my skates to the right firmness as well as visually creating a contour.

The backstrap is a nice feature. Just a few rhinestones but along with the reflective piping, it has a nice shimmer on the ice. If Jackson chooses to put this same feature on the lower level models I can see it being quite popular with the younger girls. I know we are supposed to pretend that we are in figure skating for the hard work, not the sparkles but a little but of well-placed bling never hurt anyone.


I'll try and remember to update this 6-12 months from now with how they lasted.

[tothepointe]

Does "clunky" just mean it is wider at the toe? In which case, it might appeal to girls with wide toes? And that "cool" means narrow-toed - comfortable to some people, painful to others? And/Or does "clunky" mean heavy?

Some of the previous Jacksons like the Freestyle and the Competitor the outer boot didn't show any of the contours of the foot. So what little shape you might have had was lost even though they did accommodate this on the inside. I didn't think that I'd like going back to Jackson but even though I have a wide ball the rest of the boot is sleek. Proportions matter

[tstop4me]

Does "clunky" just mean it is wider at the toe? In which case, it might appeal to girls with wide toes? And that "cool" means narrow-toed - comfortable to some people, painful to others? And/Or does "clunky" mean heavy?

It's an issue of visual appeal taking priority over functional appeal.  Jacksons tend to be more anatomically conforming; in particular, a more rounded, rather than more pointed, toe.  Functionally, it should appeal to skaters with wide (or even normal) toes; but, visually, many are turned off.  Edeas not only have classic pointed toes, but their trendier models (such as the wildly popular Ice Fly) have sculpted cutouts and Swarovski crystal adornment.  The same skate pro also told me that the top selling line of blades in his shop were the Ultima Matrix series.  Because of superior engineering design, because of superior materials, because of better pricing?  No.  Because of all the pretty colors to choose from.

I remember a discussion I had back in the '80s with another skate pro.  At the time I was wearing Riedells, and I said I wished that Riedell would offer boots with rounded, instead of pointed, toes.  He told me that one company had come out with a line of anatomically conforming boots with square toes ... but skaters thought them too ugly, and they were yanked from the market right quick.

[Query]

Now that I think of it, a lot of skaters, especially women, pay a lot of attention to their other clothing, and are willing to pay a lot more for beautiful and unique clothing. Likewise, if I walk into a big shoe store, I see hundreds or thousands of wildly different models, many of which aren't particularly functional. It makes sense that Edea is running away with some of this market if they have a sleeker style.

I guess it just isn't something I tend to notice.

[tothepointe]

Here is the response to the question I asked Jackson about whether the Debut was built on the Elite last or not.

"Little different from the Elite last but very similar. Fit and feel are appropriate for intermediate level with support for Axel/doubles"

[tstop4me]

Here is the response to the question I asked Jackson about whether the Debut was built on the Elite last or not.

"Little different from the Elite last but very similar. Fit and feel are appropriate for intermediate level with support for Axel/doubles"

Thanks for posting this info.  Strange that Jackson would develop a new last, though.

[tothepointe]

I'm thinking they'll probably use this last when they update the rest of their line and use it on the Freestyle/Mystique/Classique etc. They seem to be introducing new models from the top of the line on down. Makes sense they'd want to use the improved fit throughout the line.

[tstop4me]

I'm thinking they'll probably use this last when they update the rest of their line and use it on the Freestyle/Mystique/Classique etc. They seem to be introducing new models from the top of the line on down. Makes sense they'd want to use the improved fit throughout the line.

As Mr. Spock would say, "That's logical." 

[tothepointe]

http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?product=s2nD2KbHsLJab0w/IzvOtg1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E

Well, I guess they released their new sole. Mimicking the look of the Avanta

[tothepointe]

Looks like they designed the Freestyle as well.

[tstop4me]

Looks like they designed the Freestyle as well.

This is bizarre.  The Debuts are listed as "Competitive" models, sold as a boot only.  There's a new model Freestyle Fusion and a new model Elle Fusion.  Both are listed as "Recreational" models (a lower grade than Competitive), sold as a kit with pre-mounted blades.  Yet the Freestyle Fusion and Elle Fusion are both listed as being built on the Elite last (used on the top of the line Jacksons), not on the new Debut last that you discussed in a previous post for intermediate level boots.  Mr. Spock would say, "That's not logical."

[Sibelius]

I posted on this a couple of days ago.  I'm not sure what they're doing.  2 different Debut stiffnesses, (the original Debut was deemed way too stiff for my skater).  The Debut std. firm is the same number as the Freestyle now.  They seem all over the map.  Not sure about the aesthetics of the Fusion sole, and that of the Freestyle/Elle Fusion boots.  My skater says they look clunky, whereas the Debut, except for that font issue someone mentioned, look nice.

We'll probably just go with the original Freestyle and swap out the blade.

[AgnesNitt]

And aren't they microfiber?

How does that last with hard wear?

[Sibelius]

I've yet to see them in the wild.  My daughter has the leather Elle, and it's pretty cut up as it is after 7 months.  Depending on what her coaches and her fitter say we might give it a go. I'm all in for the lighter weight if it's significant.  Maybe I can convince the fitter to order a sample boot in her size!  Except for that gray sole...

[tothepointe]

I would have liked the lighter stiffness. I can't really comment on how well the microfiber wears since I've only had them since August (regular sole) but they seem to be fairly cut resistant. The initial break-in was fast in terms of comfort but I would have liked if the tongue had softened up more.

I'm guessing this sole is what my fitter was talking about when he said they were coming out with an injection moulded sole.

I do think this will be successful for them at least in the short term. Because it mimics some of the aesthetic qualities of the Ice Fly but at a stiffness and price that is more appropriate for some of the lower level skaters that want them. Mainly talking about the young girls that are attracted to the rhinestones and silver heel.

I'm fairly happy with the fit and my skating has improved light years since I switched. I went from not being able to pass Pre-Alpha for about 18 months to be able to hold hip level spirals for the length of the rink as well as working on mohawks and 3 turns and stuff within 4 months. But that's because it fits rather than any magical boot quality. I feel much more of a connection to my blade.

[Sibelius]

I sent off an inquiry to Jackson about whether it's really closer to the Freestyle in stiffness.  That's where we should be next.  She hasn't broken her Elle's down yet, but they won't fit much longer.  She's little so the lighter weight would benefit.  Also don't really want to buy the Freestyle kit since she's moved on to an intermediate freestyle blade.

I suspect we'll have to order a Debut, a Freestyle (original) and Freestyle Fusion to see what fits best.  Unfortunately we'll have to pay restocking and shipping on all of them that don't work.  I really hope I can avoid that cost, might as well go with SP Teri or Harlick at that point.  We'll see what we can do when her fitter gets back.

[davincisop]

RE: The font they used. My friend is friends with Mark Ladwig, I wonder if I could somehow get a memo to the higher ups and maybe see if they'd let me do some custom calligraphy for the boot so it doesn't have that ugly stock font and horrible spacing.

[Sibelius]

It's not too bad on the Fusion Freestyle or the Elle (the E is a little over the top), but yeah, that space between the D and e really jumps out.  I didn't pay attention to the actual boot when I saw it in the shop.  Kind of nit picky I suppose, but noticeable in the photos.

[tstop4me]

RE: The font they used. My friend is friends with Mark Ladwig, I wonder if I could somehow get a memo to the higher ups and maybe see if they'd let me do some custom calligraphy for the boot so it doesn't have that ugly stock font and horrible spacing.

Do you think skaters will shy away from the Debut because they think, "Ewww!  That font stinks."?

[tstop4me]

And aren't they microfiber?

How does that last with hard wear?

Without knowing the composition of the microfiber, we can't tell what the wear characteristics are.  Not necessarily bad ... if it were Kevlar microfiber, e.g.