Boot Rant

[AgnesNitt]

Yes we all have something to say.

Here's mine:

So I spend a chunk of change having custom Harlick's made and THEY'RE STILL TOO WIDE AT THE HEEL. I might as well stayed with split sized jacksons.

(I've tried slilpos on both feet, it only works on the right; on the left, it's too thick. However, today I discovered that an elastic retention sleeve from skatingsafe.com was just perfect. Finally, I'm happy (in that 'happy for now, but some other annoying figure skating thing will come up' way.)

[Query]

AFAIK every major custom boot maker offers a full money back satisfaction guarantee, if you contact them fast enough.

Most of them will first try to fix whatever makes you unhappy, up to and including making new boots.

Don't feel guilty about it - it's a large part of why custom boots cost so much. You paid for the service when you paid those prices.

I would call the boot maker to find out what they can do, then talk to the boot seller to see what they can do.

[icefrog]

Have you had them for a long time? The padding around the ankle compresses after awhile and it seems like they are too big. It happens to me when my skates are beginning their slow and painful deaths.

[Bill_S]

My boot rant is a result of my own impatience. I ordered a pair of Riedells from a reputable fitter, and waited over a month for them. They came, the fitter pronounced them a little too big, but they felt fine to me. Besides, I didn't want to wait another month for a replacement pair - that's the biggest reason I took them anyway.

Well, they are too big. Shame on me! I've developed bumps on my heels, and I've taken to stuffing whatever self-adhesive, spongy material I can find into the heels to reduce pain. Heh...I haven't resorted to bubble gum, although that's what the picture reminds me of. That might make taking off the skates a little difficult.  



I should have known better. The fitter is a well-respected professional, but I was just too impatient to wait for replacement boots.

Well, that's the way it goes. That won't happen with my next pair!

[AgnesNitt]

AFAIK every major custom boot maker offers a full money back satisfaction guarantee, if you contact them fast enough.

Most of them will first try to fix whatever makes you unhappy, up to and including making new boots.

Don't feel guilty about it - it's a large part of why custom boots cost so much. You paid for the service when you paid those prices.

I would call the boot maker to find out what they can do, then talk to the boot seller to see what they can do.

I think it's too late. I was just so upset to learn this that I could have sat down and cried.

Have you had them for a long time? The padding around the ankle compresses after awhile and it seems like they are too big. It happens to me when my skates are beginning their slow and painful deaths.

I wish this was so. However, at least I've found a solution. Thanks for the tip.

[Query]

I thought you were fixing up your old boots instead of ordering new ones?

I honestly don't get why people are unwilling to talk to the companies. You might be surprised just how service oriented custom boot makers are. Klingbeil did some work on mine, for free, after about 6 years - though it was too late for them to replace them free.

Why not call Harlick? It will take more time to explain here why that would inevitably be futile than to call and find out.

[Sk8Dreams]

Well, they are too big. Shame on me! I've developed bumps on my heels, and I've taken to stuffing whatever self-adhesive, spongy material I can find into the heels to reduce pain. Heh...I haven't resorted to bubble gum, although that's what the picture reminds me of. That might make taking off the skates a little difficult.  

Try molefoam.  I found it works great, but has to be replaced as it compresses eventually.

[techskater]

Query - I totally agree; Rudy and Phil at Harlick have been nothing but helpful with me over the years.  Phil, who is the president of Harlick, wants his customers HAPPY and will do a lot to help you.   

[Query]

Bill  &) 

After you try the bubble gum filler, tell us how it works out!

P.S. I hope you fix this before you get permanent heel spurs.

[Bill_S]

After you try the bubble gum filler, tell us how it works out!

Hey, if it works, I'll get rich selling packages of "chewable boot fitting inserts"!

The trouble with most peel-and-stick padding materials is that the adhesive "creeps" over time, and the material ends up at the bottom of my boot instead of being stuck to the rear. With stress and heat in the boot, even the padding material becomes deformed over time. My favorite material at this point are the grayish heel "wings" sold by CVS pharmacy. I just need to get some more and clean out the boots for a fresh installation.

I've had these boots about 3 or 4 years now. I probably should look at new boots soon. While skating yesterday, stepping deeply onto the left blade for scratch spin entries caused the blade to turn under a bit. It sprung upright a fraction of a second later, but even that temporary bobble makes centering spins more difficult. It's now obvious that I need a better fit.

I just wish boots didn't cost so much!

You can tell I don't like to spend too much on skating gear if I can help it.  (Yeah, I'm a cheapskate! ) Here are my PIC skates with Riedell Bronze Stars that are about 10 years old...


Nice creases, eh? Both sides of the boot have them.

[Query]

Bill, I attach tape UNDER the insole, where it can't creep. You can create "wings" by letting the tape go around the edges of the insole, up the sides of the boot and back down (so it sticks to itself, not to the boot, which isn't very sticky) and under the insole again. Athletic tape also doesn't creep as much as some things, but you might need a lot of tape if your heel is so much larger than your feet.

What we need is a skin-safe liquid foam we can put in the boot, insert the foot, and let it conform and dry solid. I wonder if there is something like that for medical purposes?

Is Silicone gasket maker skin-safe when wet? (I suspect not.) If not, could you wear a thin plastic baggie to protect the foot? (Be careful. Not tried by me.)

The ski industry has cork pieces that glue inside boots. You get it hot enough to sort-of melt, and put a sock-covered foot inside to mold it. I have no idea how they avoid burning the foot.

If none of these appeal, maybe you could cut up an old close-celled foam camping mattress pad, and glue it in with an industrial strength permanent glue like Barge Cement. Maybe a Moto Tool could shape it. (Not tried by me. Barge Cement has a lot of scary warning messages on the label.)

But bubble gum seems like such a cool solution, and it is skin-safe. Market it under another name, so people don't steal your idea. Say, "Conformable Magic Fit Instant Boot Insole Compound".

[Sushi]

What we need is a skin-safe liquid foam we can put in the boot, insert the foot, and let it conform and dry solid. I wonder if there is something like that for medical purposes?

This makes me think of the rubber-like stuff that dentists use to make impressions of your teeth at the dentist office.

[Query]

>...dentists...

Checked a search engine for "dental impression material" - got links like

http://www.net32.com/ec/impression-materials-t-524

which lists "alginate, silicone, polyether or hydrocolloid".

I suppose it might be healthier to use a formula intended for contact with human beings than one designed to make engine gaskets.

If I wasn't perfectly happy with tape under the insole of my boots, I'd be tempted.

Of course, if you put in too much you might make a mess of things inside the boot. But it might be a practical way to create an equalized pressure fit.

Some people need extra support under certain parts of the foot (e.g., certain arches) - so you might still need to play with tape.

If no one here tests it, it is hard to know how well it works and how long it lasts. I'd be reluctant to actually recommend anything I or someone I trust hasn't tested.

[Nate]

I thought you were fixing up your old boots instead of ordering new ones?

I honestly don't get why people are unwilling to talk to the companies. You might be surprised just how service oriented custom boot makers are. Klingbeil did some work on mine, for free, after about 6 years - though it was too late for them to replace them free.

Why not call Harlick? It will take more time to explain here why that would inevitably be futile than to call and find out.

I have Klingbeils.  I've taken great care of them, but the heel looks like it's starting to separate from the left boot.  They're like a year old.

TBQH.  I don't even care.  I've had so many boot/blade problems that I can care less.  I'm just going to order a different brand next time.  Hopefully these hold up long enough until I can get that done.  I'm sure I'll be able to just use the blades I have, so that will cut down the cost substantially.

But it will suck to go through what I've gone through...  again... in another pair of boots.

I'm never buying another boot where V cuts (to help bending) and Tongue Stabalizers aren't a default option on the boot, as well...  Ever.

[Isk8NYC]

FWIW, I'd get the skates fixed rather than be bitter - they're only a year old.  Take a picture and send it to Janice via email, asking what can be done.  I'm sure it's a simple fix. 

They can also add the tongue stabilizer hook after the fact.  I don't know about adding the flex notch now, but it couldn't hurt to ask.

My Klingbeils have notches and tongue stabilizers that Don Klingbeil suggested, but these weren't my first pair and he knows who/what he's dealing with.  I've never had a pair of skates where the tongue didn't shift and twist.  He's had to add a hook on every other pair after I had problems, but on these, he wanted them in place from the start.  It works perfectly.

[Sk8tmum]

FWIW: When we rec'd our first pair of Klings, we were given very specific directions on what to do when they were not being worn, particuarly in the first weeks: the tongue was to be put inside of the boot top, correctly positioned (i.e. pulled up, centred) and pushed towards the back of the boot, and then the laces were to be wrapped loosely around to ensure that the tongue stayed in position.

We have always followed this direction, and have never had a problem with "tongue twisting" on that pair or any of the other pairs of Klings we've purchased snce.. Others who didn't do this did have the problem, regardles of the tongue hooks and/or flex notches and/or the lace "slots" at the bottom of the boot. Just a suggestion going forward for people to try

[Isk8NYC]

I also do the anti-twist prevention things you've suggested, even with the tongue hooks.  It's not twisting during storage, it's during use.  The way my ankle is shaped causes the tongue to twist, not the skate design or lack of care.  My old Riedells and a pair of Jacksons I tried also twisted after a few uses, so it's not a Klingbeil issue, but I was impressed that Don took note of it on my older skates and resolved it beforehand on my new ones.  That's an example of Klingbeils' excellent customer service.

The front of my ankle is flat and the outer ankle is smaller than the inside, so it slopes to the outside.  As I flexed and pointed, the tongue would work its way over to the outside, the inside edge would press right into the channel next to the inside ankle bone.  There's a nerve that runs up and down that channel that would hurt when the edge of the tongue pressed into it, especially with a flexed ankle. 

I have to compliment Don on his innovations - on one pair, he salvaged them by swapping the tongues from one boot to the other, so they wore in evenly.  On another, he put a hook on the tongue that caught the edge of the boot, not the laces.  That was really effective since it was like a stop to prevent the slipping entirely but didn't require any fancy lacing.  My new skates, as I said, have the center hook at the flex notch, and the tongues are still perfect.

I wear orthotics in my shoes, but Don couldn't replicate them for this pair since I live too far away to go back to the shop for adjustments.  I put a pair of Superfeet Yellow insoles into the skate and that's worked helped with a few adjustments for my orthopedic issues.  (Very high arch, heel spurs in both feet, pronation)  I prefer the leather insole that Klingbeil provides because it gives me better control over the blade.  When I finally resolve my blade alignment issue (a real problem), I can have the adjusted insoles replicated by Klingbeil.

[jumpingbeansmom]

FWIW: When we rec'd our first pair of Klings, we were given very specific directions on what to do when they were not being worn, particuarly in the first weeks: the tongue was to be put inside of the boot top, correctly positioned (i.e. pulled up, centred) and pushed towards the back of the boot, and then the laces were to be wrapped loosely around to ensure that the tongue stayed in position.

We have always followed this direction, and have never had a problem with "tongue twisting" on that pair or any of the other pairs of Klings we've purchased snce.. Others who didn't do this did have the problem, regardles of the tongue hooks and/or flex notches and/or the lace "slots" at the bottom of the boot. Just a suggestion going forward for people to try

We have been doing this with my 10 year old daughters boots as instructed

[Nate]

The boot of a 10 year old simply aren't comparable, unless it's a pretty big 10 year old (5'4" 135# need a stiffer boot kind of big).

A small child can do doubles in an S-1 boot no problems and tie the skate tighter at the top because they're easier to break in (boots are softer) at the beginning - keeping the tongue "trapped" better.

I handled some S-1's.  Maybe I could do a small Waltz jump in them, but they'd probably implode if I did much more than that.

In any case, I have already contacted Klingbiel (before I made these posts).

They told me to walk around in the house to break them in.  I do deep knee bends in them and the left skate is still borderline unbroken-in.  The right foot is my landing foot.  Impact has hastened the process (I jump high).  However, I don't feel safe working on axels because of the left boot.  It also isn't kind to spin entrances and some turns.

They said I could send them in and they'd put the tongue thingies in, but I had a fitter do that.

The boot issues stem from before Kling (when a fitter here gave me a boot a half size too big with a blade to long - obviously - to boot).

Unfortunately I've never met Don Klingbeil.  If I had, perhaps I'd have Flex Notches and the left boot wouldn't be coming off the sold.

The Lace Slots at the bottom of the boot (if I'm understanding Sk8mum correctly) are heel stabalizers.  They aren't for the tongue.  They're used in high level freestyle boots to keep the heel locked into the back of the boot.

The flex notches I'm talking about are to help the skate bend.  They're kind of helpful on boots with one piece uppers, since those are typically the strongest boots.

Most other manufacturers offer these two things are pretty standard features on their boots, but since Klingbeil only really has one SKU with 3 different support levels, you have to ask for them (I wish I had known back then).  Otherwise you get a pretty plain boot with nothing on them.

But I'll shoot my fitter an email and see where to go from here.  He recommended Klings because of my foot width and boot strength requirements (obviously was a bit optimistic on the latter).

[FigureSpins]

I don't think the lace slot on the tongue has anything to do with heel lock since that was added when my older skates were retrofitted with a tongue hook to stop the slipping.  I didn't have a problem with the heel moving.  The lace slot doesn't lock down the foot; it stops the tongue from twisting along with the tongue hook. 

The setback hooks on Klingbeil boots are for heel lock.
Klingbeil's "scallops" are flex notches.  Same thing, different name.  I knew what you meant and yes, I have had them on my last three pairs of Klingbeils.  I don't know if I asked for them, but they do stop the creasing.

If you're not ordering from Klingbeil themselves, it would be a good idea to look at the options on their website forms, to know what's available and decide what you need.  Mistakes happen.  I wouldn't blame my mistake on the manufacturer, though.

Good luck.

[Sk8tmum]

The boot of a 10 year old simply aren't comparable, unless it's a pretty big 10 year old (5'4" 135# need a stiffer boot kind of big). A small child can do doubles in an S-1 boot no problems and tie the skate tighter at the top because they're easier to break in (boots are softer) at the beginning - keeping the tongue "trapped" better.I handled some S-1's.  Maybe I could do a small Waltz jump in them, but they'd probably implode if I did much more than that.

The Lace Slots at the bottom of the boot (if I'm understanding Sk8mum correctly) are heel stabalizers.  They aren't for the tongue.  They're used in high level freestyle boots to keep the heel locked into the back of the boot.

The flex notches I'm talking about are to help the skate bend.  They're kind of helpful on boots with one piece uppers, since those are typically the strongest boots.

Okay, here goes. The S1 we have is on a 5'9" 135 pound skater landing all doubles up to a double axel (and is a male). No problems with that, and landings are deep, soft, controlled and with a bent knee.

The tongue thing I must not have explained: it is a slot at the bottom of the tongue to avoid twisting and it's fairly new for us; wasn't on the last 2 pairs of custom Klings although we have always had the "goal posts" on the tongue. And we've never had a twisted tongue problem ... 

We have the scallops; yes they are useful, but so is a properly fitted ankle area that prevents the boots from creasing too fast due to too much flex from width issues. Had too much creasing "back in the day" on a too wide pair of Jacksons that also had the flex-notch. Similarly, the flex notch didn't help on the bend with a waaaayyy- too stiff pair of Jacksons ... those things never bent after a year (changed coaches, were never over-booted again).

In terms of the setback hooks , never thought about them for heel lock, we have an actual heel lock built into the inside of the boots, which works great.  Now, there are on some skates an additional "heel lock" thing which pulls across the boots at the top of the foot part with the laces , but that's not the same as the Klingbeil tongue slot. I know some Jacksons used to have it ... I believe some Riedells do still.

I also second the amazing Klingbeil service. They looked at the boots to see where wear and tear were issues and we discussed a few "unique" problems when we ordered them, and they gave very creative solutions, including building some things into the boots that are not on their order form, and, of course, no extra charge. Couldn't have been nicer people.  I'll travel there again without question ...

[Nate]

Okay, here goes. The S1 we have is on a 5'9" 135 pound skater landing all doubles up to a double axel (and is a male). No problems with that, and landings are deep, soft, controlled and with a bent knee.

The tongue thing I must not have explained: it is a slot at the bottom of the tongue to avoid twisting and it's fairly new for us; wasn't on the last 2 pairs of custom Klings although we have always had the "goal posts" on the tongue. And we've never had a twisted tongue problem ,  

We have the scallops; yes they are useful, but so is a properly fitted ankle area that prevents the boots from creasing too fast due to too much flex from width issues. Had too much creasing "back in the day" on a too wide pair of Jacksons that also had the flex-notch. Similarly, the flex notch didn't help on the bend with a waaaayyy- too stiff pair of Jacksons , those things never bent after a year (changed coaches, were never over-booted again).

In terms of the setback hooks , never thought about them for heel lock, we have an actual heel lock built into the inside of the boots, which works great.  Now, there are on some skates an additional "heel lock" thing which pulls across the boots at the top of the foot part with the laces , but that's not the same as the Klingbeil tongue slot. I know some Jacksons used to have it , I believe some Riedells do still.

I also second the amazing Klingbeil service. They looked at the boots to see where wear and tear were issues and we discussed a few "unique" problems when we ordered them, and they gave very creative solutions, including building some things into the boots that are not on their order form, and, of course, no extra charge. Couldn't have been nicer people.  I'll travel there again without question ,

Cool.

Like I said the tongue twist ended when I had the hooks put in.  I was just surprised a boot this expensive didn't come with such a cheap part on it standard, since it doesn't do anything to compromise the integrity of the skate and the skater doesn't HAVE to use them.  That wasn't such a big issue.

The lack of flex notches, perhaps, but there are extremely high level boots with flex notches and I've seen skaters at top national and internation competitions skating with them.  I find it odd that I should be expected to put in a custom boot order for flex notches, when almost every other reputable brand has them on the stock boots along with the tongue hooks.  The boot fits correctly (I wouldn't have them if they didn't).  The boot is just hard as hell to break in.  Have you ever skated in a pair of S-2s with no Flex Notches?

The setback hooks aren't what I was talking about.  I was talking about Heel Stabalizers, as seen on these Jackson boots behind the flex notches to lock the heel back in place:  Jackson Boots Info/Picture

S-1s aren't gonna work for me.  Good for him, though.

That being said.  The whole experience has been quite educational for me, because when I go in next month to order my next pair I will be armed with a list of requirements and expectations, and have an idea of what type of boot I'm looking for.

[Sierra]

My single boot rant, which is the same as every single other skater's out there:

WHY ARE THEY SO EXPENSIVE?!

:angel

[katz in boots]

Ok, my rant is:  Why can't they just fit !!!

Why is it so hard to get boots that fit properly?  Why is it considered acceptable that there be a painful wearing-in period, and ongoing pain for some?

Imagine being able to just pull you boots on, knowing they'll fit like a glove, support where needed yet allow bend & movement where needed
That is my dream with boots.

[Sk8tmum]

Ok, my rant is:  Why can't they just fit !!!

Why is it so hard to get boots that fit properly?  Why is it considered acceptable that there be a painful wearing-in period, and ongoing pain for some?

Imagine being able to just pull you boots on, knowing they'll fit like a glove, support where needed yet allow bend & movement where needed
That is my dream with boots.

My kids are living your dream ... at the price of custom for one, and, bless Riedell, the existence of split widths for another; they step in and go ... now, I will say we have an angel from above who tried every single brand, model and type of boot until the perfect brand was found, then, for 8 years, has looked after us in unbelievable ways; including letting us know ahead of time of sales - ! Never a painful breakin period, never a problem at all ... and just the right support for everything they do.  Me, I think that what every skater needs to have access to is a fitter who KNOWS THEIR BUSINESS AND ISN'T EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED TO ANY PARTICULAR MODEL OR BRAND !!!!!!