Upgrade boots and blades at the same time?

[Meli]

So my boots have started to hint that perhaps I need to start throwing some money in the piggy bank for replacements.  I'm currently in Jackson Competitor with Aspire blades.  I'm leaning towards going with the Premier on the next go round, to add a little stiffness as I start working on additional jumps.  I'm also debating the merits of upgrading blades to something like the Coronation Ace.  The question is, do I upgrade both at the same time, or do I upgrade the boots and use the Aspire blades (they have plenty of life in them) for a while longer?  I'd like to make the adjustment period as smooth as possible. 

[Nate]

Coronation Ace isn't that aggressive of a blade.  I don't see why that would be that huge of an issue.

If you were upgrading to a much stiffer boot and a blade with a more aggressive pick, then I'd probably say wait.  It's what I'm doing right now :-)

Sometimes when the stiffer boots don't want to bend, they rock forwards on the ice putting you on the bigger pick, but the Ace should be fine with that boot.  I say go for it, personally, but have you spoken to your coach about it?

[Meli]

We've discussed the blade, but she's open to other options on that because she is used to a different manufacturer and hasn't used the coronation ace herself.   I had originally planned on mounting them to my current boots when we talked about it... but now the boots are becoming a problem, and she's out of town for a bit.  Ack.

[littlerain]

I don't think it would be too bad, especially if the blade isn't a huge change. Is the aspire a 7' or 8' rocker? I don't recall

[Meli]

I don't think it would be too bad, especially if the blade isn't a huge change. Is the aspire a 7' or 8' rocker? I don't recall

Aspire is an 8' rocker.

[rd350]

Following this thread with interest.  Can someone explain the rocker size differences?

I am also getting new boots and have to decide on blade.

I use Coronation Ace btw and very comfy with them (On Reidell Royals, at the moment).

[Nate]

Larger rockers allow you to skate with more blade contact on the ice. It means you gain in stability and speed. Also, on jump takeoffs you can position your body optimally without falling off the edge as easily. The larger rocker also stabilizes jump landings for a lot of skaters.

A lot of coaches put lower level skaters on 7' blades because they have a more pronounced rocker and are easier to turn and spin on. But at high speeds a lesser skilled skater can feel out of control and some skater can more easily develop edge entry issues with those rockers because movement can more easily throw them off their edge. Turns and for work are easier on them.

With all the chronic flip/Lutz issues at the elite level, as well as skaters changing edge before their turns etc. I wonder if a change of thought is worth considering for a lot of coaches. On the flip side... Wilson and MK make no intermediate freestyle blades with an 8' rocker.

You can get a Carbon steel Gold Seal replica from Paramount for less than most others, though, so not that huge of an issue. Gold Star costs even less from them and if you're willing to go with Paramount I'd get that over the CorAce, MKPro, or Eclipse Mist since you can do almost anything on them, are a stronger/lighter blade, and they barely cost more.

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[Bill_S]

Going further back to basics, I'm going to tack a little more info onto Nate's reply. Nate explains some of the differences felt going to a larger rocker, but there my be some people who don't even know what a rocker is. I created this graphic showing the differences between the two most common rockers - 7 ft. and 8 ft. The graphic is approximately to scale.

Anyway, a rocker is the curve on the bottom of figure skating blades. They aren't flat on the bottom, and that permits three-turns, aids skating in circles, and assists other figure skating moves. But there are tradeoffs when choosing between them.

(Click the picture to see a larger version of it)



You can watch the rocker arc change in the animation. It's not a large change.

I also made an animation showing a close-up of the blade (mostly to scale), but it would have to be displayed very large to detect the differences between rockers. I didn't include it for practical reasons. I was surprised at how small the actual differences were between the two rockers. Having said that, it doesn't surprise me that small changes feel vastly different to the skater though.

[lutefisk]

I assume that an 8 foot rocker is more forgiving but less nimble than a 7 foot rocker?  This would be the case if we were talking about the keel lines of small racing dinghies. 

[Loops]

Hi everyone- we're just back from a nice long vacay.

Lutefisk- I think that's an excellent way of putting it, and Bill_S, that's a good diagram, thanks for putting it together.

Aren't Ultima blades mostly 8' rockers?  I think someone told me they were designed that way, since most people eventually change over anyway, and it gets rid of the transition.  He also told me that the quality on them is good, and he recommends them often.  Given the inconsistency of Wilson/MK, and the fact that my own number should be up sometime soon for getting sketchy blades, Ultima's on the list for the next go-around.

[Bill_S]

Kinzie's Closet (https://www.kinziescloset.com/Compare_Ice_Skate_Blades.html) shows all Ultima blades with an 8 foot rocker. I suspect you are correct.

In terms of feel, I recall the time someone sharpened my blades and greatly flattened the rocker. The skates felt very, very fast, but I couldn't turn worth a hoot. That's my only experience to date, and it fits with the observations of others. I will probably try 8 foot blades on my next pair of skates, but I'm a little concerned about how it will affect my mediocre spins. I could always switch back if needed because my Aces have plenty of material left for sharpenings.

If I do switch, I'll post a new thread detailing my perceptions.

I did finally succeed with an animated graphic to show the blade differences between a 7 foot and an 8 foot rocker. I had to crop out the front part of the blade to show enough movement ...

[rd350]

Thanks!  This was helpful in understanding what happens at the blade.

Hmm, anything that may help my 3-turns.  Here today, gone tomorrow and back and forth!  I have my measurements for Harlicks next week.  Will discuss with fitter.  Thanks for the explanations!

[Nate]

The turn itself is easier on a 7' rocker, but the entrance and exit edges would likely be easier (more stable, especially as speed increases) on an 8' rocker, so it's a tradeoff.

Once skaters get to IJS competition levels (Adult Gold, and maybe Intermediate or Juvenile for Standard track, I'm not so sure) the sureness and quality of the entrance and exit edges matter. If you fall off the exit edge too fast, the tuen can be invalidated, for example.

Also, balance, speed, and control affect your PCS. Better stability also allows you to do more complex choreo with more sureness, never mind step sequences and choreo sequences.

There are Elite Skaters on 7' blades, though. A small skater (in size, not age) may actually do much better in them, actually.

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[Query]

According to this thread

  http://skatingforums.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=0802b1e915a9341c67099149029afcec&topic=5740.msg65250#msg65250

everyone who one an Olympic medal in Sochi used MK blades, which, AFAIK, all have 7' rockers. (In fact, MK blades have won most of the Olympic figure skating medals for many years.)

So the empirical evidence supports elite athletes at the very top using 7' rockers, not 8'.

Of course, tradition and sponsorship are likely strong factors in elite blade choice.

[JSM]

They were in MK OR John Wilson blades, now both of HD Sports.  John Wilson makes the Pattern 99s and Gold Seals, both of which have 8' rockers and are hugely popular at the elite levels.


Edited to say: Pattern 99s and Coronation Aces are the blades of choice for most of the skaters in my area, it seems!  All of the above are good blades.

[Nate]

According to this thread

  http://skatingforums.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=0802b1e915a9341c67099149029afcec&topic=5740.msg65250#msg65250

everyone who one an Olympic medal in Sochi used MK blades, which, AFAIK, all have 7' rockers. (In fact, MK blades have won most of the Olympic figure skating medals for many years.)

So the empirical evidence supports elite athletes at the very top using 7' rockers, not 8'.

Of course, tradition and sponsorship are likely strong factors in elite blade choice.

No offense. But that thread names skaters wearing a bunch of JW blades or replicas.

It also said JW OR MK, which is correct. Most wear the expensive ones not the cheaper clones.

Most wear JW blades, which are 8' rockered. Most clones are clones of JW blades and even many of the Phantom clones are 8' not 7' - they just clone the picks and general blade rocker shape, but not necessarily the radius.

Adelina Sotnikova wears a gold Seal blades, so your information is not correct. Hanyu wears Pattern 99 Revolution. Dennis Ten wears Pattern 99. Volosozhar and Trankov wear Gold Seals. Lipnitskata wears Gold Seals. Stolbova and Klimov wear Gold Seals. Yuna Kim wears Gold Seals. Savchenko and Szolchowy wear Gold Seals. Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold wear Pattern 99.

How many Sochi medalists is that? 2/3 Ladies, Entire Pairs Podium, 2/3 Men (Chan wears Phantoms)... Dance blades are 7' so they aren't a factor. Even going to the team competition,  JW blades have a huge lead over MK and other 7' blades in Sochi, cause 90% of the skaters there use blades with an 8' radius.

I think that pretty much agrees with what I said. Especially when you look at all the other top level elites that didn't win medals that wear JW blades.

Polina Edmunds, Mao Asada, Daisuke Takahashi, Peter Liebers, etc.

MK was a lot more popular back in the 90s. I think a lot of ladies World medalists wore Phantoms or oth3r MK blades back then (Kwan and Lipinski, maybe Lu Chen).  These days, not so much.


Some elites wear other brands but most of those are 8' rockered blades.

One thing that does interest me is how few skaters wear the a gold Star blade at the elite level. Gold Star is basically a higher end MK Professional, and a lot use that at the Intermediate level, so its interesting that most people move off that profile when they move to a higher level. Phantoms are like higher end visions, but are higher than MK Pro. Maybe it stems from people moving from Pro to Vision and then to Phantom, instead of moving from Pro to Gold Star in one jump.


It can't be the smaller pick, cause the Gold Seal has a small pick as well. Maybe the curvy rocker coupled with the smaller radius is too much for them?

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[littlerain]

There are Elite Skaters on 7' blades, though. A small skater (in size, not age) may actually do much better in them, actually.

Hmm, I find this interesting! What makes you say so? Am curious on your thoughts!

[Nate]

Hmm, I find this interesting! What makes you say so? Am curious on your thoughts!

A small skater can gain maneuverability and easier spinning ability (for more difficult positions, faster and more completed rotations) easy with the 7' Rocker, help them with footwork levels (since they're easier/faster to turn on), etc. while still having good stability because their Height (e.g. Center of Gravity), Weight/Body Mass, and Dimensions still allow the rocker to feel [more] stable to them even at higher speeds.  I'm speaking generally, cause there are some smaller skaters who hate the curvy rockers on those aggressive blades (MK Pro, Gold Star).  They don't need as much blade contact with the ice to as stable as a larger skater.

A larger skater will gain a lot of that, but may not feel as balanced/stable.

Also, even at same rocker radius, the rocker PROFILE has to be taken into account.  Some blades, like an Gold Star have a very curved rocker while others like Pattern 99 are flatter with more complex rockers.

In the end it really depends on what the skater prefers, since not everyone is the same and every time you speak generally a contradiction is bound to pop up :-)

If your skater likes MK Professionals, one benefit of the 7' Rocker is that you can move straight to Gold Stars and avoid a lot - if not all - of the adjustment that a skater moving from Coronation Ace to Pattern 99 or Gold Seals would deal with.  The Pro and Gold Stars are very similar in Rocker Profile and Shape, as well as in the toe pick.  IIRC, Paramount lists the Professional and Gold Star as the same profile in their line of blades.

EDIT:  Yes, they do - http://paramountskates.com/ourblades.php

EDIT:  Carolina Kostner is a full grown woman now, and is rather tall compared to a lot of the pixies competing, and wears Gold Stars (Revolution now, I think), which contradicts what I say somewhat but also shows that some people will prefer what generally works best for them.

[Query]

Oops. I read too quickly.

Even the MK Hall of fame

  Davis and White on MK Dance
  Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir on MK Dance
  Andrew Pjoe and Kaitlyn Weaver on  MK Dance
  Nathalie Pechalat and Fabian Bourzat on MK Dance
  Alex Shibutani and Maia Shibutani on MK Dance
  Penny Coomes and Nick Buckland on MK Dance
  Nicole Orford and Thomas Williams on MK Dance Revolution

  Patrick Chan on MK Phantom
  Cecilia Toern on MK Phantom

  Carolina Kostner on MK Gold Star Revolution 
  Mariah Bell on MK Gold Star Revolution Parabolic 

also mentions
 
  Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov on JW Gold Seal 

  Liadan Emmert on Parabolic (what type??)

So, I'm not sure what to conclude, other that there are still a fair number of 7' rocker elite skaters - but a lot of them are ice dancers on MK Dance.

But why don't ice dancers count?    Ice dancers are skaters too. (And the faster turns a shorter rocker blade might plausibly create are a big advantage there.)

Jackson Ultima should be winning all the competitions - because they give pro shops a better profit margin than MK and JW. And almost every pro shop likes them better, because they have better quality control, so shops don't have to shipping blades back as much for warpage, and sharpeners don't have to compensate as much for minor profile and sharpening defects. (Paramount too? I'm not sure.) (Some pro shops don't have the tools to sharpen Ultima Matrix or Paramount blades - but at the elite figure skating level, I don't think that is much of an issue.)

I wonder why the Riedell Eclipse line isn't more popular at the elite levels. They are still a bit cheaper.

Is it possible that HD Sports gives out lots of sponsorship money to elite skaters who win on their blades?

[Nate]

Dancers don't count because the vast majority will go with a 7' rocker because it's IJS and the need the maneuverability and the better rocker for twizzles. 8' rockers simply aren't agile enough for most of them.

Most MK and JW blades were designed way before IJS. Almost no elite dancers will skate on an 8' rocker.

Didn't mean it in a denigrating manner, but it's just not logical to even consider them when their discipline is so obviously biased to one type of blade...

Freestyle and pairs are a bit different in that respect. There are hardly any top level elite pairs or singles on MK blades. About 85-90% or more are on Wilson.

Eclipse, Ultima, and most high end Paramount blades are 8'.

I omitted skaters like Mariah Bell for the same reason I didn't name Nathan Chen.

You can get Ultima Elite (P99 profile) blades for $249 new (less if you find a shop who will beat the advertised price), while Eclipse Infinity is $345+ everywhere. I also don't like the rust prone picks they (Eclipse) have on them. The Titanium is more expensive than Matrix and top end Paramount blades. One advantage is Riedell can push them to skaters who buy boots from them.

I wouldn't personally consider a JW or MK blade past the intermediate level because their prices are scandalous and QC/consistency is so bad.

For lower or younger skaters I'd seriously think about the CorAce or MK Pro Paramounts, which are lighter and stronger than other blades in that class.

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[icedancer]

Dancers don't count because the vast majority will go with a 7' rocker because it's IJS and the need the maneuverability and the better rocker for twizzles. 8' rockers simply aren't agile enough for most of them.

Most MK and JW blades were designed way before IJS. Almost no elite dancers will skate on an 8' rocker.

Didn't mean it in a denigrating manner, but it's just not logical to even consider them when their discipline is so obviously biased to one type of blade...

Dancers don't count?  LOL

Hmmm my SuperDance 99 (8 ft rocker, Pattern 99-type dance blade) must be the reason I can't do those fast twizzles!!

I tried the MK dance - two pairs actually - they were okay but... I think I want to try the Ultima Synchro next time (ooh, 8 ft rocker again!)

[Nate]

Everything you "asked" is upthread, read the posts.

The rest:  I don't care.  The conversation isn't about you, it was about what Elite Skaters preferred up until you made it about you - which makes the discussion uninteresting to me, so I'll dip out now.

Why I don't want to entertain that dialog should be obvious, but if you have a serious question about my aversion to it, feel free to PM and I'll kindly explain.

Have a great day.

[Nate]

Dancers don't count?  LOL

Hmmm my SuperDance 99 (8 ft rocker, Pattern 99-type dance blade) must be the reason I can't do those fast twizzles!!

I tried the MK dance - two pairs actually - they were okay but... I think I want to try the Ultima Synchro next time (ooh, 8 ft rocker again!)

You can always start a thread about what blades you prefer and we can continue talking about what Elite Skaters prefer and why in this one...

Unless you're Tessa Virtue's internet persona.

[icedancer]

You can always start a thread about what blades you prefer and we can continue talking about what Elite Skaters prefer and why in this one...

Unless you're Tessa Virtue's internet persona.

Oh we talk about that over in the dance thread sometimes - it is interesting though isn't it?

Tessa Virtue LOL - I WISH    I pretty much love the way she skates....

[littlerain]

Maybe someone should split off this conversation so we can resume the OP 's original conversation about upgrading boots and blades at the same time? Lol