Upgrade boots and blades at the same time?

[Query]

I'm sure Nate was just enjoying himself poking a little fun  at ice dancers. Surely he knows perfectly well how silly it is to design blades to be a bit more stable for a few milliseconds of jump landings. If only IJS would bring the artistry of Dance to Freestyle, we could be well rid of those 8' rockers! 

Returning to the original topic, it appears that pretty much all common reasonably high level blades (like my worn out MK Dance, and the (old style Matrix interchangeable) Ultima Dance, Ultima Synchro and Ultima Surpreme blades I'm returning to, have their mounting holes in almost exactly the same place. They also are all designed (in my size) so the back of the front mounting plate is a little more than 1/2" behind the sweet spot, and the front of the front mounting plate goes through about the back two teeth of the toe pick. (Though the back teeth are a bit further forward in beginner skates - e.g., on your Aspire blades the second tooth extends forwards a bit of the front mounting plate, if the one I just looked at in a store is typical.)

In other words, aside from rocker lengths and toe picks, a minor things like side honing that don't affect this level blade, the blades are all going to pretty much fit the same on your boots.

So you can safely just buy new boots alone, and not have to worry that if and when you switch blades, you will need new boots to match them. You may not even need to fill in the old holes when you switch - and if you do, it's not that big a deal.

I did need to shim the blades, because the planes of the mounting plates are a bit different. I did that very easily, by adding a few strips of athletic tape to the back mounting plates, until they fit the boots without pressure. (I had white athletic tape handy, which doesn't match my black boots. Better to match colors.)

For me at least, the difference in spin rockers is the main difference between MK and Ultima blades - because I spend most of my time at the ball of the foot, or at or in front of the sweet spot. And the stuff that is most difficult is all around the sweet spot. So the main rocker length doesn't matter that much. To me.

People who use the back or middle of the blade for critical things may care more. E.g., if you are still stuck in freestyle, and need to land jumps, you might care. Which is why it is relevant to this thread to bring in the Dance/Freestyle thing.

[lutefisk]

In an effort not to high-jack the original topic here, I'm going to open a new thread that asks questions about the differences between dance, synchro and freestyle blades.  All you smart people are welcome to come educate me.

[taka]

I wouldn't personally consider a JW or MK blade past the intermediate level because their prices are scandalous

Depends where you are in the world! Not a lot of price difference between equivalent Ultima, MK and JW blades here! Not sure eclipse are even sold inthe UK!

[Nate]

I don't like waiting on blades because of the extra holes you can end up with in the boot. I'm rather temperamental about my mounting though. Even a mm off seems to destroy everything cause it feels like inches in my body.

My blades felt flawless then as the boot started to bend more I noticed my left blade is too far in. Instead of drilling more holes, I'm going to wait for the new blades and then make sure it's right on that boot before permanently mounting them. 

If all your blades come from the same manufacturer then that is less of an issue, like Query said at same boot length you can often reuse the same hokes for the new blades. If you're going from MK Pro to Ultima Freestyle then I'm not sure if the holes will be in the same spots. But I'll know somewhat soon.

All the blades Query mentioned are from Ultima ☺ That makes it a ton easier. At that point you only have to worry about holes getting stripped, and that can be dealt with somewhat easily.

I'm getting Ultima cause the edges are super hard and if I can drive 1.5 hours for sharoening every 6 weeks instead of 4, that would be a huge gain for me!

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[Nate]

Depends where you are in the world! Not a lot of price difference between equivalent Ultima, MK and JW blades here! Not sure eclipse are even sold inthe UK!

Is that a Pro Shop or retailer price.

I think if you can Order Ultima Elite for $249 from the USA or Canada it will still be a lot cheaper to pay international shipping or whatever than pay $440-470 for JW Pattern 99's/MK Phantoms, or $505-540 for Gold Seals/Stars.

Assuming they ship internationally.

I tried a pair of Eclipse Pinnacles and it was the heaviest blade I've ever had on my boots. 

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[Query]

All the blades Query mentioned are from Ultima ☺...

Actually, the MK Dance aren't Ultima. (:  A moderately experienced fitter told me that all the figure skate blades he knew have approximately the same hole positions. But a more experienced fitter said that if you are super picky, maybe not - sometimes even blades of the same size and model have slightly different countersink centers, so you would get a slightly stabler mount, if you fill the holes first, or use different holes.

Holes can be filled. It's a pain, but it can be done.

[Nate]

Actually, the MK Dance aren't Ultima. (:  A moderately experienced fitter told me that all the figure skate blades he knew have approximately the same hole positions. But a more experienced fitter said that if you are super picky, maybe not - sometimes even blades of the same size and model have slightly different countersink centers, so you would get a slightly stabler mount, if you fill the holes first, or use different holes.

Holes can be filled. It's a pain, but it can be done.

Yes. I had holes plugged. My old boots has 23 holes in each boot if you count those, but even though they're still stuff enough for triples and quads you'd have a hard time finding a stable mounting due to how many holes have been put in them. Not sure if a fitter would want to drill right between two plugged holes, or in one side of a plugged hole. I guess they can be reused if you fill every hole when you mount them (I never did, which is why I was able to move it so much).  I also changed blade sizes which gave me mounting room for free!

Missed the MK blade mention reading fast.

Most of the newer manufacturers (who use more up to date processes) are pretty good with putting the holes in the right spot.

Generally I've never seen a boot need more holes when the same model size blade is being put on the boot. In practically all cases the fitter just put it at the same spot and it took like 5 minutes or less to mount it (if they snow seal the blade plates).

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[taka]

Is that a Pro Shop or retailer price.

Not quite sure what you mean, sorry! Most boot/blade/skate sellers in the UK are smallish rink based shops, some of whom have websites too. Prices vary a bit (especially in Scotland where there are few places to buy anything so prices tend to be higher) but not that much. Cor aces and Ultima legacy and protege are the same price +/- a couple of quid for example.

[Nate]

Well that's a Pro Shop, and unless they sell at the cost they purchase for, they are almost never cheap.

Now that I know my boot size, I will never buy from a Pro Shop moving forwards because retailers are almost always cheaper and usually offer free shipping.   

Some Pros will sell to you at cost ($175 MK Pros, $387 Pattern 99s). Most will sell at the MSRP to increase their margins ($210 MK Pros, $440 Pattern 99s).

Retailers are a lot more aggressive in their pricing, especially with brands like Ultima who leave them more room to profit off the sale ($249 Ultima Elite vs. $440 Pattern 99 or $345 Eclipse Infinity is a bit of a no brained to me).

Some will beat any advertised price, so it's only a matter of finding the cheapest place and then sending them the link to get an even better deal.

Between the boot and blades, you can save upwards of $150+ depending on what you buy.

Not as great for growing feet (sizes changing) or switching brands (sizing differences), but if you're an adult like me there is money to be saved there.

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[fsk8r]

Well that's a Pro Shop, and unless they sell at the cost they purchase for, they are almost never cheap.

Now that I know my boot size, I will never buy from a Pro Shop moving forwards because retailers are almost always cheaper and usually offer free shipping.   

Some Pros will sell to you at cost ($175 MK Pros, $387 Pattern 99s). Most will sell at the MSRP to increase their margins ($210 MK Pros, $440 Pattern 99s).

Retailers are a lot more aggressive in their pricing, especially with brands like Ultima who leave them more room to profit off the sale ($249 Ultima Elite vs. $440 Pattern 99 or $345 Eclipse Infinity is a bit of a no brained to me).

Some will beat any advertised price, so it's only a matter of finding the cheapest place and then sending them the link to get an even better deal.

Between the boot and blades, you can save upwards of $150+ depending on what you buy.

Not as great for growing feet (sizes changing) or switching brands (sizing differences), but if you're an adult like me there is money to be saved there.

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I'm guessing by retailers you're meaning shops in malls and online outlets. We don't have those options in the UK. There just isn't the demand to create the amount of competition you have in the US and quite often with shipping and customs duty and tax, a lot of the price differential gets taken away.

[Nate]

That is very unfortunate.

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[Query]

Maybe HD Sports should open a factory near Detroit, so they can avoid importer fees and import duties, and ship to most U.S. and Canadian skaters more cheaply... If they sold direct, they could be really cheap.

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Nate, I'm really impressed that you have so many screw holes in your boots! Help me to understand why: How many skating hours do your boots last? How many hours between sharpening, and how many sharpenings / blade lifetime? How many mounting plate holes do use / mounting?

How do you fill your holes? Wood plugs and Shoe Goo are mechanically similar to leather, and can support overlapping positions. Though you've got a LOT of holes - I'm not sure wood would hold together without adhesive.

[Nate]

Maybe HD Sports should open a factory near Detroit, so they can avoid importer fees and import duties, and ship to most U.S. and Canadian skaters more cheaply... If they sold direct, they could be really cheap.

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Nate, I'm really impressed that you have so many screw holes in your boots! Help me to understand why: How many skating hours do your boots last? How many hours between sharpening, and how many sharpenings / blade lifetime? How many mounting plate holes do use / mounting?

Currently I'm doing very minimal skating hours.  I used to (when I got my Klingbeil S-2 Boots) do like 13-15 hours of Freestyle (Afternoon Freestyle everyday after work) and 4-5 Public Sessions a week, which is about 5 hours if you assume I'm wasting half the Public Session (which is probably close to accurate).

Back then I had 2 50 Minute Lessons/Week as well.

Right now I'm generally doing about 4-5 hours FS a week, maybe...  With 2 30 minute lessons a week, when I'm actually skating actively.  I barely ever do any Public Sessions at the moment.

Currently, I'm barely skating (0 hours past 7 days).  My body is sore and recovering, and I'm content to let it do its thing right now, since I couldn't make the test session...  When I get my new blades I'll finish breaking in these new boots and ramp my hours back up.

I am not sure how many hours my boots get, because I went between two pairs of Klingbeils and even wore a pair of Edea boots for a span of time.  I had two pair of boots with Blades mounted at all times for the past year.  I have more pairs of figure skating boots than I have shoes, atm :-(

Blades I don't tend to sharpen often.  The first thing I do when I get on the ice is go through my stroking, all edges, and all turns forwards and backwards.  If my blades are getting dull, I tend to know before I start jumping, spinning, running program [sections], or get in a lesson; because turns will be more difficult or start to skid a bit.  At that point I'll either take them in on a day when I can make the drive, or if I'm really desperate I'll leave them with someone to get sharpened quickly without having to drive 1.5 hours.

How do you fill your holes? Wood plugs and Shoe Goo are mechanically similar to leather, and can support overlapping positions. Though you've got a LOT of holes - I'm not sure wood would hold together without adhesive.

I have the Pro plug the holes, at a charge.  I'm not sure what material is used, but it looks like Glue and Leather Plugs.  I just looked on the bottom of the boot and one hole is right next to a plug (partly into the plugged portion of the boot) so I guess it's fine as long as a majority of them aren't sitting that way (then you worry about having the blade pull off the boot on a heavy landing).  They were very well done.  You can rub your fingernail over them and not even tell the difference between the leather and the plug.

He will be plugging some more soon, and I'm sure I'll get "that look."

Screw Holes come from adjusting the mount so much.  I had tons of issues with that, since the Klingbeil boots didn't fit my foot correctly (my S2 boots were a little too wide, but my S1 boots were the correct width and had the same issue, the Last just all wrong for my foot type).  I went through tons of insoles (each one aligns your foot a bit differently which means your blade must be mounted differently for decent balance) and two blade sizes (can't reuse same holes) so...  A lot of drilling was done.

Usually the fitter put 3 screws in the front and one in the back (not counting the sliding screws that they temp mount with).

[Query]

Sidewase-offset blades are used to approximately equalize the pressure between the left and right sides of the bottom of the foot. Because, if one side of the foot barely touches the insole, to some extant you lose control and have trouble skating on the edges on that side of the boot. I also got sore muscles trying to compensate.

The same can be done by modifying the insole - e.g., sanding down the high pressure side, or placing tape or adhesive foam under the low pressure side.

Don Klingbeil also told me that Klingbeil boots were not designed to be used with offset blades. He said that I had twisted my boots out of shape, because a (non-factory) fitter had mounted my blades offset. Perhaps you had the same issue, and they keep twisting more and more, due to those offsets.

Don favored customizations inside the boot (e.g., insole changes) to achieve the same purpose as blade offset. Don Klingbeil believed that if the boots were well fit, you didn't need to offset or do insole modification, because the insoles would already fit and balance your feet perfectly. Regrettably, I wasn't fit at the factory, and mistakes were made.

I speak in the past tense, because new management fired Don Klingbeil, and some of Klingbeil's top craftsmen left the company over the past year, which means boot designs may have changed.

[Christy]

So my boots have started to hint that perhaps I need to start throwing some money in the piggy bank for replacements.  I'm currently in Jackson Competitor with Aspire blades.  I'm leaning towards going with the Premier on the next go round, to add a little stiffness as I start working on additional jumps.  I'm also debating the merits of upgrading blades to something like the Coronation Ace.  The question is, do I upgrade both at the same time, or do I upgrade the boots and use the Aspire blades (they have plenty of life in them) for a while longer?  I'd like to make the adjustment period as smooth as possible.

To answer your initial question, I've usually upgraded both at the same time, mainly because it means that I have a back up should I not get along with the new skates (last time I got new skates my old ones sat on the bench, then in the locker room then the car but were never actually used), but also because it means I only have 1 adjustment period, which may be a bit longer, instead of 2.

[Nate]

Sidewase-offset blades are used to approximately equalize the pressure between the left and right sides of the bottom of the foot. Because, if one side of the foot barely touches the insole, to some extant you lose control and have trouble skating on the edges on that side of the boot. I also got sore muscles trying to compensate.

The same can be done by modifying the insole - e.g., sanding down the high pressure side, or placing tape or adhesive foam under the low pressure side.

Don Klingbeil also told me that Klingbeil boots were not designed to be used with offset blades. He said that I had twisted my boots out of shape, because a (non-factory) fitter had mounted my blades offset. Perhaps you had the same issue, and they keep twisting more and more, due to those offsets.

Don favored customizations inside the boot (e.g., insole changes) to achieve the same purpose as blade offset. Don Klingbeil believed that if the boots were well fit, you didn't need to offset or do insole modification, because the insoles would already fit and balance your feet perfectly. Regrettably, I wasn't fit at the factory, and mistakes were made.

I speak in the past tense, because new management fired Don Klingbeil, and some of Klingbeil's top craftsmen left the company over the past year, which means boot designs may have changed.

Klingbeils were not designed for end to end mounting.

The back of the boot is shaped almost identically to my SP-Teri's.  The heel sits in almost the exact same position in the boot as in the SP-Teri's.  The difference in heel height is miniscule.  There is nothing about the design of their boot that tells me that they should require a different mount.  My spins improved a ton after I moved from end-to-end to center-heel mounting on my Klingbeils, because the change in blade size placed the spin rocker at the proper position relative to my foot.

Offset mounting shouldn't mess the boot up.  Even in custom boots you may need to offset, because custom boots do not account for foot or leg anatomy differences an offset blade can, nor does the average equipment a fitter use allow them to really see that.  I am of the opinion that when fitting boots, the entire leg must be examined, not just the chins and below.  The fitter should also examing the entire leg and see how it operates both in a sitting and standing position.  My opinion, though.

Other Boot manufacturers like SP-Teri and Riedell updated their lasts a few times over the years.  Klingbiel was really slow to catch up, and people stopped buying their stock boots as much (and only because they were riding the wave of their reputation from their Customs, and notable skaters like the Hughes sisters and Sasha Cohen wearing them).  Boot makers can make the greatest customs ever, but to survive as a business you need decent stock boots that can fit a wide variety of feet, which Klingbiel wasn't so good at compared to some other manufacturers like Harlick and SP-Teri.

I always regretted not getting customs from them, considering I ended up having to buy two pairs of stock boots practically back to back in such a short span of time from them.  Back then, I was not located so close to New York, though.

[Casey]

My first pair of decent skates were Graf Edmonton Specials with MK Gold Star blades. I had wanted SP Teri but the pro shop talked me into the Grafs and they had a fitting size in stock, so, instant gratification. The boots were comfortable for the most part, though I did have heel pain issues after a while, and needed bungalow pads due to ankle pain caused by the top edges. All in all though, the boots didn't feel like they constrained my skating, and as the Gold Stars (7' rocker) were all I knew aside from rental skates, I learned and progressed well. After a year and a half though, the boots were done, separating at the heels from the soles, and the layers splitting apart near the thread holes at the notches. Plus suede does not age well, and they didn't look nice anymore.

I then ordered custom Klingbeil's (black leather with natural brown soles) with gold-plated John Wilson Gold Seal (8' rocker) parabolic blades. Absolutely beautiful skates, I loved them! Adjusted quickly and found the combination to be far superior, continued progressing well for some time. I was able to spin better than ever, my best videoed spin was 40 revolutions nicely centered, and this was only 2 years after my first time on ice. 3 turns and all footwork felt much more controlled and I became completely convinced 8' rockers were much better for me.

Then life went in crazy directions and I stopped skating. The skates ended up stolen, and a few years later I ordered replacement Klingbeil's (this time with black soles) and black Paramount 440's. Still have those today, though my skating has only gotten worse due to neglect. The Paramount blades are also 8', though I don't know which competing blades their profile replicates. Interesting blades, I have not sharpened them in years and they are *still* too sharp to do snowplow stops (though T-stops are no issue), and do not rust. My opinion of them is better than it was initially, but my next skates, if I ever get any, will have Gold Seals again. The second pair of Klingbeil's is not as good as the first (these ones hurt my toes a lot if I try any toe jumps and leave my right ankle sore in the morning for about a week after I skate), and I don't like the black soles nearly as much. I'm not sure what to do for boots now, maybe SP Teri or Harlick? Or Avanta?

Anyways no regrets about changing both boots and blades at once. Adjustment was no different than it would have been with either individually or just breaking in another identical set.