Adult Moves Tests

[aussieskater]

I'm pea-green with envy that the US has a system where adults have their own testing stream.  Downunder, we pass the same tests as the kids, to the same standard - no allowance made for geriatricity!!

I know that some adult onset skaters like to point at a skater like me and say "well you learned as a kid, what you have to say doesn't matter" but let me make it clear - I stepped back on the ice two years ago after taking 10 years off, and nothing has come back to me easily.

Sarahspins, I can see where you're coming from, but there is one thing you might be forgetting - skaters who learn as adults have likely never before done any form of exercise which forces bi-rotational ability.  The younger a person is when they start overcoming rotational bias, the less ingrained that bias will be in later life.

As a result an adult coming to skating for the first time (fresh meat!) will have to overcome a lifelong rotational bias, with likely no experience of turning the "other" way.

There does seem to be a strong bias to the CCW skater in testing.  No surprise I guess, when you consider that the majority of skaters are CCW.  I'm CW, but as a not-very-good-dancer and synchro skater, I'm having to learn all the turns we use CCW - pattern dance choreo is set, and there's no allowance made for us lefties in synchro.  (Try doing the European CW - it's fun!)

I'm interested in why I have difficulty turning CCW, so asked my dance teacher about floor dance.  She teaches ballet, contemp and flamenco, and has experience in tap, hip hop and ballroom, so she knows her stuff.  Her answer was that most floor dance choreo tends to focus more on one rotational direction than the other. Yes they do teach both directions in class, but the exams don't necessarily test both sides evenly, and if you watch a dance school show at the end of the year, most of the turns will be one direction only.

As far as I can tell, floor dance is really the only "rotational" activity out there apart from figure skating?  Maybe some of the other posters with direct experience in the various disciplines of floor dance might have some input here.

[icedancer]

Example: a skater fails Silver twice before finally passing on the third try. She or he could have pulled off Pre-Silver and Silver in one attempt each.  The Pre-Silver/Silver setup would save one test session and fee.  Not to mention the psychological benefit of passing on the first attempt.  However, a skater who can handle the current Silver setup would have to pay for an extra test if it were split in two.  Just pointing it out...

Back in the "Figures" days you could take 1/2 of the upper tests or you could take the whole thing.  Maybe something like that could be instituted for the Moves.

I also think that choosing from a menu of Moves would be great - like substitue [xxx] for spirals or something...

Great topic.

I am disheartened by the one skater at our rink who has taken the Silver Moves at least 5 times - she will not give up which is great but I am sure she is frustrated.  The rest of us have just given up and are just enjoying skating for the sake of... skating!

[sarahspins]

Because the end patterns favor your natural direction.  Try flipping them around and see how that works for you.

Why do you assume that I never skate around the rink CW?  My coach has been working with me on some "full ice" patterns to build speed and confidence and the pattern for toe loops and flips has me going CW around the end of the rink (complete with two CW turns).  The beginning of that pattern (fw crossovers, mohawk, etc) is essentially the same as I would follow if I were to skate most of the moves patterns CW around the rink. I haven't had any problems skating that pattern - where I have problems is actually jumping since everything in me says "no, don't do it, you're going too fast!!" (though the more I do it, the easier that is getting though).

And don't imply I don't put energy into fixing them- that's just plain rude.  I've been working for years to improve my end patterns.  For me they are flat out harder than anything on the silver test other than the 8-step mohawk in my bad direction.   That cannot possibly be the intention.

I'm NOT trying to say that you (or anyone else) hasn't worked hard on them (or isn't still)... what I am saying is that if it were me, I'd keeping working on it until it got better.  I'm not suggesting that you aren't, I'm just stating that it is the obvious solution because the improvement isn't going to just happen magically, it does take time.  You say you struggle with the 8 step too, so clearly it isn't "just" an end-pattern thing for you, and it has to do with turning CCW.  

I can understand that turning is harder in the direction that isn't natural for you, but everyone deals with that - I still do, back 3's scare me more CW than CCW, though curiously I can do the backwards CW brackets easier than the 3's. CW twizzles make me super dizzy, while most of the more basic turns aren't a problem any more..  I know that the twizzles (in terms of being so disorienting) will only get better the more I work on them, so I work on my "bad" side more than the easy one.  I had never done any twizzles at all until a few months ago and it's going to be a looooong time before I test them, but it's the time I spend on them now that will make a difference later.  If I waited until intermediate to even think about twizzles, I'd sure be in a world of hurt by the time I got there because the CW ones would seem impossible and I'd probably be stuck on that test for a long time because they don't come that easily for me.  Hopefully when I get past prelim and pre-juv and juvenile moves, the twizzles will be easy, because by then I will have spent a *lot* of time working on them.  If they don't, then I will simply keep working on them until they are.

Sarahspins, I can see where you're coming from, but there is one thing you might be forgetting - skaters who learn as adults have likely never before done any form of exercise which forces bi-rotational ability.  The younger a person is when they start overcoming rotational bias, the less ingrained that bias will be in later life.

Okay, but reality is that I only started skating (as a teenager) a few years ahead of some of the skaters posting in this thread.  I didn't skate as a little kid and I never did anything that forced bi-rotational ability (I played tennis off and on in middle school, and that's pretty much it as far as sports went).  I knew right away when I started skating that I was a CCW skater.. spinning was just so much easier that direction.  That preference didn't stop me from working on turns in both directions because I think when I was first learning there was a LOT of emphasis put on being able to do them all both directions, and we weren't really given an opportunity to "favor" a side.  Maybe why I don't get it is because I skate with adult-onset skaters who don't seem to have as strong of a rotational bias for turns as I see being posted here.  What I mean is beyond simply preferring one direction, but flat out saying that they find the other direction almost impossible.  That's what I was asking about - I want to understand where that statement comes from, and I do think I understand it better now.  

One thing to consider, though: if the existing Adult-track moves tests were split apart, you'd have to pay for more test sessions.  That *might* be offset by a lower failure rate, saving time, money and discouragements.

I agree, though if a shorter test (3 or 4 elements) carried a smaller test fee, it would probably work out better for most people than failing and retaking a test several times if they were hung up on ONE element and the others were fine.

[Skittl1321]

You say you struggle with the 8 step too, so clearly it isn't "just" an end-pattern thing for you, and it has to do with turning CCW.  

Yes, it is clearly a CCW turning issue.  But the point is, the moves I have trouble with end patterns for are not designed to test turning, yet it it turning that is preventing me from being succcessful.   I spent weeks searching youtube for alternate entries to moves to find something that would work on my Bronze moves to allow me to be able to turn around to start the alternating back crossovers and the back outside edges- both moves that were very strong, but I couldn't turn to start them.  But even those got to start at a standstill- for power pulls and crossrolls, having the power of the entry is essential for the move, having a weak turn: which supposedly is not part of the move, puts me at a disadvantage for the tested part of the move.  This is CCW bias.


Like I said before- I have 20 years of CW turning in dance working against me.  Well trained ballerinas should be equal in both directions, I wasn't "well trained".  Most recreational dancers aren't.  For every 50 turns (spin) we did CW we would do 1 CCW.  That just wasn't the normal direction.  

It isn't that I don't practice.  I now practice 5:1 on CCW vs CW turns.  For every CW 8-step I do, I do 5 CCW.  For ever circle of inside mohawks I do CW, I do 5 of them CCW.  I practice heavily on that side - it doesn't seem to be helping.  My mohawks are pitiful at speed, okay slow.  But I can do all my half jumps in both directions and do 3 rotations of a CCW one foot spin and a respectable 2 foot spin.  It is mostly a mohawk issue (although my right inside 3 turn is pretty pathetic right now too- I don't know what happened to that.  I never seemed to get it back after the hip injury.  It used to be okay, except at synchro speeds.)  

I agree, though if a shorter test (3 or 4 elements) carried a smaller test fee, it would probably work out better for most people than failing and retaking a test several times if they were hung up on ONE element and the others were fine. 

It isn't just test fees though. It is ice and lesson time.  To get ready for a long test takes a lot more time than it does to get ready for a shorter one.  You have to upkeep ALL the moves, so even once they are 'ready' some time is spent on them.  I know you shouldn't drop moves after passing them, but they don't need lesson time.  So if the easier moves are passed, you can concentrate more of your ice time on the harder moves, rather than some on the harder moves, and some on making sure you don't lose the ones you already have.  Shorter tests would be much better, if only because silver is just insanely long.

[AgnesNitt]

If part of the reason for 'toughening' up adult moves is to keep up the standards for the booziest that is Adult National, maybe USFSA could introduce a test sequence that is for people who want to have skating goals but don't want to go to AN.  This could in some ways be focused more on attractive footwork and style rather than zipping along at the speed of light.  Call it "Footwork Track".

Everything in Basic LTS should be covered in some form on Pre-bronze. The fact that FI3 doesn't show up until silver is weird, it should be on PB.
I'd like to see FO/I8 on pre-Bronze. Waltz 8 on Bronze, BO/I8 on Silver and Threes to center on gold.
I'd like to see brackets introduced at Bronze, rockers at Silver, counters at Gold. Why? because even if you're half crippled you should be able to do those turns. They're basic turns.
I'd take the power moves (e.g. power pulls) and tell the skater to do them at least halfway down the rink--extra points for the full length, but halfway is a pass.
Spirals should move to freestyle. If I could figure out a place to put in a choctaw (Gold?) I would. Even if you don't have a lot of power or flexibility due to injuries you should be able to do nice footwork with presence and style, and if it was carefully planned it could support both moves, freestyle and dance.

[Skittl1321]

Agnes- these counters, rockers, and choctaws you are proposing, I'm assuming that is at a snails speed?  Because otherwise HAHAHAHA.  If we aren't even getting adults to do all the three turns until silver now, that is NEVER going to happen.  Choctaws are also pretty limited by closed hips, so lots of your "half crippled" skaters won't be able to do them.  I know I can't due to my hip injury. (I could do them at a standstill before it - never with speed.)

The power pulls are only half rink right now, then you switch feet.  Are you saying you'd do 1/4 rink on each foot?  That doesn't give you time to show power before changing...

I do think it is a travesty FI3 isn't until silver.  It used to be on PB in the special adult move pattern.

Also, if not held to figure standards, I think the Waltz 8 is much easier than the FO/I8.  I think the progression they have now of it on PB and the edges on bronze makes a lot more sense.  The circle 8 should come after the half lobe edges, not at the same time.

[AgnesNitt]

Well Skittl I can see your points. I think FO/I8 is easier than Waltz 8, but that's just me. If I were queen we'd be doing patch.

Power pulls only half down the rink? Man I've gotta put my glasses on when I read those diagrams .

I was hesitant to mention choctaws, but i have closed hips and i think I can do them.

What we really need is a scheduled matrix of moves, so that you can advance up the levels as a training and goal setting tool. Skaters can test the moves up the schedule, and if you can't do something on one side, you just don't get a check in the box. There would be no requirement to pass all the moves at one time for any level. This means the levels could have a lot more moves in them, but you could break them down into sub-tests as you improve.

[aussieskater]

Okay, but reality is that I only started skating (as a teenager) a few years ahead of some of the skaters posting in this thread.

Any period pre-adulthood is an advantage.  Many of us (me included) didn't start at all until well into our thirties and beyond.  I was almost 40.

I didn't skate as a little kid and I never did anything that forced bi-rotational ability (I played tennis off and on in middle school, and that's pretty much it as far as sports went).

Yes, that's exactly the type of rotational "experience" (or lack of it!) I mean.

I knew right away when I started skating that I was a CCW skater.. spinning was just so much easier that direction.  That preference didn't stop me from working on turns in both directions because I think when I was first learning there was a LOT of emphasis put on being able to do them all both directions, and we weren't really given an opportunity to "favor" a side.

My coach was and remains of the same view, and it's expected that my CCW rotation must be as good as my CW rotation.  Like you and Skittl, I have to spend lots more time practising my "bad" side!

AgnesNitt, I love your idea of a "footwork" track.  I'm with you on the whole figures thing, and actually wonder if the figures training of years gone by forced bi-direction rotation?  I wish we could still train and test figures, but there's no such testing stream down here any more.  There are only a few coaches left who can teach them, and probably very few judges left either.

[fsk8r]

I'm another one green with envy about the adult testing stream. We equally have the one size fits all. It starts getting very difficult once power becomes the focus of all the tests. I'm an adult starting skater, but I've nearly got to the half way point.
However, I find all this talk about CW skaters not liking CCW turns weird. I'm left handed, the first thing I remember being told is that it's a right handed world, get over it (this from my left-handed grandfather). Most of the time people don't realise I'm left handed as I'll slice bread with whichever hand is free, etc. I'm also a CW skater (so I've not even made that easy for myself). Yes, it means I've got directional preference with my turns, but I've also discovered that once I work really hard to make the CCW ones better, they end up indistinguishable from the CW ones. Some of my preferences are also more to do with left and right foot and not even turn direction, sometimes it's to do with body positioning. I prefer stepping out of the circle to move from the backwards 8 to the forwards one doing figure of 8 crossovers, it doesn't actually matter which way around I go, I step out. However coach says it looks nicer when I step into the circle to change back to forwards. It's just something I work on, we're all peculiar in our own unique ways.

However, there's one thing in all this discussion which confuses me. There's a lot of fuss about end patterns on the moves tests. Are they actually written down anywhere or are they just things the coaches like to see and the judges aren't really marking? In the UK tests the end patterns aren't stipulated anywhere, and the tests clearly say "optional steps" to start. Yes the coaches feel it's the overall impression to the judges so they don't want sloppy skating anywhere, but you still have the flexibility to do funny end patterns/transitions to turn the way you want to turn. I've actually got one choreographed into my choctaw pattern so that I can start on the other foot as per the test description. It involves me coming around the end of the rink CCW and then looping back on myself so that I do a small CW circle to start the pattern. I'm sure things like that can be done for most of the exercises people are describing as having issues with (unless they are prescribed in the test).

[MadMac]

fsk8r hit it on the nose. Very few of the moves specify an end pattern. They say "end pattern optional." The skater and coach are free to choreograph that piece as they see fit. Some coaches are reluctant to "rock the boat" by doing something a bit different, but here's where being an adult skater can really have its advantages. Yes, adult bodies have stubborn "issues" to manage, but adults also are gifted with more experience at the art of reasoning and persuasion. Convince your coach to help you design an end pattern that compliments your skills. It's not difficult to manipulate the end pattern to use a CW mohawk in place of a CCW mohawk.

One example: take  1 or 2 deep CCW fwd crossovers to turn the corner & angle your line of travel toward the top of the goalie crease, do your CW mohawk around the crease, then wide step(L). Now rotate the shoulders/head R and you are ready to look over your R side and step into Bk CCW crossovers to complete your end pattern. (Hope this makes sense -- much easier to show then to explain).

The coach should be happy to help adjust these things for you. Really, it IS allowed.
I once had a coach who insisted that I place the figure 8 crossovers pattern on the width of the rink on the two hockey circles "because that's how everyone does it." I wanted to turn the move lengthwise so my long legs could use bigger circles. Coach said no, even tho I pointed out where the rulebook said either was acceptable. On test day the judges made me reskate the move on the lengthwise pattern. Coach's jaw dropped - -

[fsk8r]

The coach should be happy to help adjust these things for you. Really, it IS allowed.
I once had a coach who insisted that I place the figure 8 crossovers pattern on the width of the rink on the two hockey circles "because that's how everyone does it." I wanted to turn the move lengthwise so my long legs could use bigger circles. Coach said no, even tho I pointed out where the rulebook said either was acceptable. On test day the judges made me reskate the move on the lengthwise pattern. Coach's jaw dropped - -

I think I'm lucky. The optional nature of things is well emphasised in the test structure and the coaches understand what's requirement and what's fluff which makes it look nice overall. On one of the tests there is 3 turns around the circle. It clearly states that these may be joined in a figure 8 pattern or else as two separate circles. I learnt it as two separate circles (it's easier practicing on a hockey circle) and when coach wanted to move it onto a figure of 8 pattern, I queried it. Coach checked book and left it as it was. Judges didn't say anything about it. The text also said how many turns to expect around a hockey circle and state that it's to do with the size of the skater. Little kids with little legs may do more turns. Big tall adults might need less. There's a minimum number needed for the exercise so the big ones might need to do two circles worth to complete the minimum number.
And the judges tend to write their comments on the end patterns. There's nothing for them to watch.

[Skate@Delaware]

I'm working on Silver moves (when I can)...some confusion about the mohawk on the 8-step mohawk sequence. My coach says it's an outside mohawk. The "educational video" shows the guy stepping really wide (I know these just demo the move). So, how should I do it (and how to keep from killing myself on these?)

also, any tips for the BI 3-turn? Or the backward cross strokes? What seems to make these work better? (I know I need lots of practice on these)

I'm thinking it will take me about 2-3 years before I can even THINK about testing these moves.

[Skittl1321]

The 8 step mohawk is DEFINITELY outside mohawks.  If you look at the diagram, it is very clearly marked as a mohawk going from LFO to RBO or RFO to LBO depending on the side you are on.  I just watched the video, and he is pretty clearly doing a mohawk to me.  Maybe you are used to seeing a more closed one that sets down at the instep?  Do it the way your hips allow you. I like mine more open like the video shows.

For back cross strokes (which before I changed my blade was my strongest move) for me it was all about getting a strong back power pull (just the pull, you don't need the ability to power them all the way down the rink to transfer the skill), and then learning how to Schaeffer push (that push off the back outside edge, apparently it is a figure thing).  But you have to have the power pulls first, IMO.  (Probably why they are on the previous test in the standard stream.)

BI3- uh... yeah. Those.

[aussieskater]

If wiki is to be believed (always a risk!  ), here's a classic example of CCW bias in the testing stream:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Skating_Association#Skate_UK_Star_Levels_.28formerly_known_as_Passport.29

Check out the prescribed step sequence elements in the Silver and Gold UK Star levels in ice dancing.

[Isk8NYC]

If wiki is to be believed (always a risk!  ), here's a classic example of CCW bias in the testing stream:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Skating_Association#Skate_UK_Star_Levels_.28formerly_known_as_Passport.29

Check out the prescribed step sequence elements in the Silver and Gold UK Star levels in ice dancing.

I can tell that you know that wikis aren't always complete or accurate.  Does the NISA rulebook (not the wiki) say anything about being allowed to reverse the pattern?

The ISI doesn't have it written on the patterns, but their Dance Step Sequences are reversible, although most of them have turns in both directions.

[Skate@Delaware]

The 8 step mohawk is DEFINITELY outside mohawks.  If you look at the diagram, it is very clearly marked as a mohawk going from LFO to RBO or RFO to LBO depending on the side you are on.  I just watched the video, and he is pretty clearly doing a mohawk to me.  Maybe you are used to seeing a more closed one that sets down at the instep?  Do it the way your hips allow you. I like mine more open like the video shows.

For back cross strokes (which before I changed my blade was my strongest move) for me it was all about getting a strong back power pull (just the pull, you don't need the ability to power them all the way down the rink to transfer the skill), and then learning how to Schaeffer push (that push off the back outside edge, apparently it is a figure thing).  But you have to have the power pulls first, IMO.  (Probably why they are on the previous test in the standard stream.)

BI3- uh... yeah. Those.

Thanks, um I think lol! Schaeffer push, ugh I haven't done that in a few years!!!! Guess it would help if I had power pulls under my belt....which I don't. Argh! 

[sarahspins]

Thanks, um I think lol! Schaeffer push, ugh I haven't done that in a few years!!!!

Knee bend helps a lot too - my coach had me doing lots of those pushes from a stand still when I was having trouble doing them correctly at speed.  Both knees need to bend, just like a plié.  Getting the cross/push is only part of it, the other is 'pulling' that BO edge to gain more power before the next one (which is where knowing how to do the power pulls helps, but in think it can be learned without having those yet). Do either of those things without the other and the move doesn't work very well.

[fsk8r]

If wiki is to be believed (always a risk!  ), here's a classic example of CCW bias in the testing stream:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Skating_Association#Skate_UK_Star_Levels_.28formerly_known_as_Passport.29

Check out the prescribed step sequence elements in the Silver and Gold UK Star levels in ice dancing.

Check out all Ice Dances! They all go CCW around the rink. None go CW.
The prescribed step sequences on the Star Levels are all parts of different dances.
Although I can't really comment beyond all that as I was ready for my first NISA level (this is the last section of LTS) when I was signed off for these tests ,and passed all 3 free levels in 15mins. Coach didn't really care, as I'd have to get everything sorted out properly for the real tests.

[aussieskater]

I can tell that you know that wikis aren't always complete or accurate.  Does the NISA rulebook (not the wiki) say anything about being allowed to reverse the pattern?

You are right - I should provided the link to the direct document - here it is:  http://www.iceskating.org.uk/skateuk/aboutstar

I was unable to find anything on the NISA site which permits patterns to be reversed.  Maybe one of our UK skaters can answer this?

If the Skate UK Star pattern can't be reversed, I find it interesting that the CCW bias starts so early in testing - it seems that the Skate UK Star levels are the approximate equivalent of our Aussie Skate bridge program.  I would much prefer to see that skaters be required to test (and pass!) both sides of any pattern or sequence from the earliest stages; however, if this is not to be required, then skaters should be permitted to choose their side/starting foot/end pattern/whatever.  To require only one direction advantages one set of skaters and disadvantages the other.

Check out all Ice Dances! They all go CCW around the rink. None go CW.

Very true!  As a dancer, I've had no choice but to learn things the "wrong" way.  I think it's made me a better skater though.

[fsk8r]

I can't say how all the coaches teach the dance side of the UK Star program but the ones at my rink would emphasise practicing the turns on both feet and in both directions.
The program isn't prescriptive as testing isn't formal, so it's up to the coach as to whether they pass the skater or not. Some will probably insist on things being done in both directions (the moves in the field certainly emphasises both directions) and I'm sure there will be other coaches who will let skaters move on without doing it.

[icedancer]

As far as the Adult MIF, originally there were some standard track moves left off (like the outside/inside spirals, waltz 8, power pulls, back power 3's) and some placed on the adult track in a different sequence (Pre-Prelim spirals on Silver and not Pre-Bronze). I assume that created some gaps so they took moves from the next level up. I also think there was the desire to give adults the advanced moves it was deemed (by who I wonder) they could handle in order to let them do some higher-level skills - originally the Int slide chasses were on Silver and the Novice move with the back perim stroking and running BI-FI 3's was on Gold. I'm not sure what the rationale was for putting the Prelim alt 3's on Pre-Bronze (b/c as techskater pointed out, it doesn't fit with what's on the first standard track test - all the forward 3's are not tested until Prelim).

So that's how the Adult MIF tests got all jumbled. After a few years, the Adult Committe responded to the many complaints about the alt 3's on Pre-B, an Int move being on Silver, and a Novice move being on the Adult track at all. So the tests were adjusted a bit, with the Novice move taken off and the slide chasses going to Gold, which created a hole on the Silver test where the power pulls were added. The alt 3's were taken off the Adult track and someone (judges? athletes on Adult Comm?) created a new 3-turn pattern which to me was bizarre and ridiculous and didn't prepare adult skaters for power 3's or 3's in the field. And the waltz 8 was also added to Pre-B, which seemed repetitive. I watched the 3-turn pattern being tested and quite frankly, based on the judging standards used, adults would have been better off if it had been added to Bronze in place of the power 3's (or alt BO edges), with a higher standard then being applied. But now the 3-turn pattern has been removed in favor of the spirals and there is almost nothing on FO and FI 3's until Silver.

Wow, Deb - this is a great "history of Adult MITF!"  Love it!  It does seem jumbled.

So now there are FO 3s on pre-Bronze in the form of a Waltz 8 and then on Bronze in the form of Power 3s but in both of those cases you step down backwards (progressively) rather than stepping forward which is required in alternating 3s and also in that "new Pre-Bronze pattern"... I find stepping forward from back to front almost harder than any other turns and now you don't see that until well, on the 5-step mohawk on the Bronze and then on the Silver on the 8-step Mohawk sequence - but is there anywhere to learn how to both check the 3-turn and then step forward?  I guess not.

Interesting musings.
Explains a lot actually and also explains why several coaches in my area encourage adults to do the Standard tests (which can be judged at an "Adult" standard I think) rather than doing the Adult track.

I chose Adult track because I didn't ever want to do spirals and figured if I ever got to test Silver I could learn the straight-line ones.  Forget about doing them on edges (despite my friend who thinks that they would be easier on edges since really it is easier to create any kind of flow on edges than on flats but I digress).

I like the idea of choosing between two moves for things like spirals.  This would also help the closed hip boys (especially) who really have a problem with the spirals on the Intermediate test.

[sarahspins]

I like the idea of choosing between two moves for things like spirals.  This would also help the closed hip boys (especially) who really have a problem with the spirals on the Intermediate test.

While I don't disagree with having an optional move for skaters to do instead of the spirals (I am not a fan of the spirals and I find the prelim pattern pretty punishing physically - the intermediate one is much easier IMO), I don't understand the logic here at all - spirals do require a certain amount of flexibility, but they do not require open hips.  An open hip spiral position is more of a cheat to get the free leg higher and it's often not very attractive.

I think if the prelim/silver spiral pattern could be altered for adults so that a skater was only expected to demonstrate one good spiral on each edge/foot (so only 4 total) instead of such a long sequence it wouldn't be viewed with such dread, and it would make the move more easily passable by most skaters, and it would still satisfy the requirements of demonstrating spirals on edges.

someone (judges? athletes on Adult Comm?) created a new 3-turn pattern which to me was bizarre and ridiculous and didn't prepare adult skaters for power 3's or 3's in the field.

I agree, it was a weird pattern, and I found it much harder than just doing the power 3's.  By the time I finally had the strange forward 3's pattern down (at a level I now realize was VERY much above passing standard!) they pulled the test and I couldn't get myself organized well enough this summer (I didn't even skate at all from july-august) to even think about testing before the changes went into effect.  Oops   I should have just tested them in April because I was ready then, but I didn't want to "waste" a year's worth of USFSA membership fee.. if I join now and test in November (strongly leaning towards this), I will still have several opportunities to test higher levels or if I am invited to retest, to try again.

[Skittl1321]

I LOVED the weird 3 turn move.  It was my favorite of the PB moves.  Oddly enough- now I can't do RFI3s...but when I was working on that, they came pretty well.  They are about equal to the power 3s in my mind, but MUCH easier than the alternating three turns they were designed to replace.

I don't think I'll ever be able to do spirals on my left leg without surgery again, but I'd be much more supportive of "one on each edge" if we have to have those stupid things on silver (seems like that would be easier to "make up" the points for 2 bad spirals rather than 5!).  That at least makes sense in terms of "progression of necessary skating moves" (although the importance of spirals is really being diminished by IJS).  Doing 5 on each side though just doesn't seem necessary.

[Debbie S]

Explains a lot actually and also explains why several coaches in my area encourage adults to do the Standard tests (which can be judged at an "Adult" standard I think) rather than doing the Adult track.

Only Intermediate and higher MIF tests have the Adult (and Masters, for those age 50+) option. Pre-Prelim through Juv have one standard.


As for the 3-turn pattern added (and now removed) on Pre-B, I thought there was too much going on (2 turns per lobe instead of just 1) and b/c each turn only took up half a lobe, there was no emphasis on doing turns at the top of the lobe. I would see adults test this and do the turn almost immediately after stepping on the FI/FO edge. Plus, their lobes were always tiny and weren't always a true half-circle. The big problem with the alt 3's was that transition at the line from BI to FO on the FO turns. It's too bad an alternate pattern couldn't have been developed where the 3-turns took up the whole lobe.

[nicklaszlo]

I would see adults test this and do the turn almost immediately after stepping on the FI/FO edge.

Interesting, because my impression from test videos has been that skaters often make the edge after the turn too short, which suggests that they have not really checked it.