Adult Moves Tests

[Jenna]

What does everyone think is the sticking point with Silver moves?  I had to wait until I was 25 to test the adult track, so I tested my Pre-Bronze the month after my birthday and my Bronze move 6 months later.  Fast forward 7 years and I still am working on Silver moves.  I guess I'm an anomaly because I like the spiral pattern.  Cross strokes are ok.  I don't like power pulls and I hate the 8 step mohawk and 3 turn pattens.  

I know that I can pass the test if I would really put in the time and effort and push myself to do it, but this test is the embodiment of all the things that I don't like.  It's hard to get the motivation to do all the things that I dislike so much, not to mention the fact that it is taking years to pass and I'm still not there.

I agree that judges have no idea what to do with adults and that you can't depend on bonus points to pass a test.  I don't know how much training will do in that regard.  Would it help to design unique patters for adult tests so the direct comparison isn't there?  I know there was a 3-turn pattern on the pre-bronze (?) test.  Would any committee want to put in the time and effort to overhaul the adult test structure?  

I never have felt like the adult skating committee has had much interest in skaters like me who started as adults and I think their focus is now on trying to keep skaters who have skated all their life to keep skating after they turn 21 and maybe to a lesser extent the adults who skated as kids, quit and came back after a gap of time.  Those groups have the most chance to get the elevation in skating quality of the adult skaters that USFS wants, which is sad.


Mod note: Split from Adult Committee Discussion

[sarahspins]

Jenna, the 3-turn pattern that was provided on pre-bronze as an "alternate" pattern for the alternating forward 3's on prelim (again, why take a move from a higher level and put it on the adult test at what should be a lower level?) was removed fairly quickly, and the spirals from pre-pre were added to pre-bronze in place of the 3's, with the spiral pattern from prelim taking the place of the pre-pre spirals that were in silver before.

For me, the "sticking point" on silver will be the FO-BI 3's.  I can't do them at speed, and in a large enough pattern.  The FI-BO are better, but I still fear it will be a while before I am ready to test either those.  The spiral pattern is improving quickly for me so I am not worried about it at this point.  The other things on the test I really don't have any problems with and could be ready to test anyt ime if it weren't for the other things. Silver seems to have more "hard" stuff packed into it than any of the standard track tests do.  Gold is sort of the same, borrowing two moves from intermediate - how does that make it easier for adults than standard track moves?  It's not!

[Jenna]

sarahspins, I'm aware of all the changes that have been made, but I though the purpose of the redesigned 3-turn pattern was to keep the forward 3s in the level but make the pattern "easier" than the preliminary pattern.  I had the original preliminary 3 pattern when I tested, so I never skated the replacement pattern and don't know how it went over with judges.  What I was suggesting was that maybe the concept of keeping the same skill set, but creating different patterns would help with the comparison of standard track vs adult test standards.

I definitely agree with you that Silver has a lot of the hard moves pulled into it.  I think that's the most frustrating part.

[LilJen]

Yep, plenty of people have trouble with the 8-step and the 3-turns. It does get problematic that you have moves from pre-juv AND juv on it. . . after well over 2 years with these I am FINALLY on the verge of being testable. It's been a LOT of work and frustration but oh MY am I a much better skater for it! I agree that it's a huge step up from bronze MITF.

WRT the pre-bronze 3-turn pattern: The problem was that the alternating 3s kind of require a certain amount of hip flexibility, which many adults do not have. Thus the revised pattern.

[icedancer]

I skated as a kid but the longer I skate the more skills I have lost!! (This was not true in my 40s but the 50s have been... terrible!)

I stopped testing at Silver Moves.  I cannot do BI 3s anymore, period and definitely not with any speed, flow or consistency.

8-step mohawks - too slow, no flow

spirals - forget it

power pulls I could probably do if I worked on them for years - in fact I am working on them more consistently now than ever just to work on strength for all of my skating.

The only Move that I think I could pass (and maybe with extra points) would be the cross-strokes.  I find them quite easy as they are on the Pre-Gold and Gold Dances - the Paso Doble and the Argentine Tango.

Most of the skaters at my rink that tested up to Bronze have given up on Moves testing and many are no longer US Figure Skating members - I mean, why bother? (I have to be a member because I am a judge).

I do think that the Adults should have a different set of Moves than are on the Standard Moves test and it would be interesting to work with a group of like-minded skaters and (realistically-minded) coaches to come up with some different Moves.

As a judge it is hard to judge the Adults.  I try very hard to be kind and find something in the Moves that I like and give the skater the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their age, flexibility, etc. but find it hard especially on the Silver Moves.  We also don't see that many of them (for the above-stated reasons) - and actually I haven't seen that many Adult Bronze or Pre-Bronze lately either.

[PinkLaces]

I passed through the Pre-Bronze Moves/FS and Bronze Moves/FS fairly quickly - 6 months for each of them.  I have been working on Silver Moves for a year and half.  I am nowhere near passing on any of them except maybe the cross strokes and on a good day the power pulls.  My 8 step mohawk is decent on my right side and crappy on the left side.  I struggle with the 3 turn patterns large enough. On a good day, I can get the spiral pattern and be stable, but need more extention/height on the spirals.

My opinion is that not only does the Silver Moves test have hard moves on it, but it is long. A lot of it when done properly is down in the knees which is also hard on adults.  I've said this before but I really think it needs to be split into 2 tests - Pre-Silver and Silver.  I can only afford 4-5 hours a week of ice time right now.  Splitting the tests in two parts would really help me in being able to focus my limited time.  It would also  help with the endurance of not having to take a long test.

[Skittl1321]

I LOVED the pre-bronze 3-turn pattern.  I think it is sad they removed it, now inside 3s don't show up until silver, and at that point, you are expected to have mastery!  Where is the learning stage?



For Silver Moves, the kicker for me is the 8-step...absolutely terrifying.
The other moves I can do, but it depends on whether or not the judge is looking for the power expected from kids.  I think it is a mistake to have power pulls and cross rolls on the same test, because you really need to be able to do a strong back power pull to do a good back cross roll.

For the 3-turns, I had gotten pretty good at that move, but am no longer.  The only "tough" one is the back inside.


The NEW spirals are what made me give up on testing.  I am under 30, but have a hip injury that will not allow me to get my leg above my knee.  When it was straightline, I could get to mid thigh for just long enough.  But there is a big difference between one spiral and 5 or 6 of them.  (I had GREAT spirals when I started skating, but the fall on the Rhythm Blues took them away from me when I injured my hip.)

At least that means I don't have to bother with the 8-step anymore


Another consideration for ALL the moves tests, is that because you have to go around the rink in a certain direction I often have more difficulty in turning from forward to backward, while maintaining the power of the end pattern, to do the move down the other side of the rink than I do with the move itself (power pulls, cross rolls for example).  Now, with the pre-bronze crossovers done forward and backward in one pattern, I wouldn't be able to pass that test anymore- I cannot do a mohawk in that direction with that amount of power.  I really think you should be allowed to go either way around the rink to get rid of the bias toward Counter-clockwise skaters.  The move does not change at all.

Pre-Silver and Silver.  I can only afford 4-5 hours a week of ice time right now.  Splitting the tests in two parts would really help me in being able to focus my limited time.

This is a really good idea.  The Silver test is WAY too long.  (What's funny is the year before last all the changes were made with an eye towards making the tests shorter: hence combining the 8-step.  This year, the spirals lengthened the test quite a bit!)  And I think 4-5 hours is a luxury.  I trained for my bronze moves with 1 hour of ice a week.

[MimiG]

I agree about splitting up the Silver test, and also that the skill progression needs some revision in the adult tests, overall. I'd actually make a pre-gold test too and revise and shorten each test to 4 patterns, since many (most?) adults don't have the same amount of ice time as the kids. I'd also be open to changing some of the patterns (especially "power" ones) to avoid the comparison with the kids - if a judge sees tons of kids each year, but only a few adults, it's got to be hard to get a real feel for what the adult standard should be, I think.

[PinkLaces]

I agree about splitting up the Silver test, and also that the skill progression needs some revision in the adult tests, overall. I'd actually make a pre-gold test too and revise and shorten each test to 4 patterns, since many (most?) adults don't have the same amount of ice time as the kids. I'd also be open to changing some of the patterns (especially "power" ones) to avoid the comparison with the kids - if a judge sees tons of kids each year, but only a few adults, it's got to be hard to get a real feel for what the adult standard should be, I think.

I like changing up the power patterns, too.  I like that it would avoid the kid comparison.  The rule book would need to more specifically state what the standards are. 

[icedancer]

It's great that we are having this discussion actually - I think it may help MOVE things in a positive direction for all of us!

[Elsa]

Another consideration for ALL the moves tests, is that because you have to go around the rink in a certain direction I often have more difficulty in turning from forward to backward, while maintaining the power of the end pattern, to do the move down the other side of the rink than I do with the move itself (power pulls, cross rolls for example).  Now, with the pre-bronze crossovers done forward and backward in one pattern, I wouldn't be able to pass that test anymore- I cannot do a mohawk in that direction with that amount of power.  I really think you should be allowed to go either way around the rink to get rid of the bias toward Counter-clockwise skaters.  The move does not change at all.

OMG, yes, please, please, PLEASE!  I can sort of, sometimes, do the mohawk, but I never know when it's going to work, and when it's not, and I'm SO scared of falling on it because when I do, I fall hard.  People keep telling me "it's good to learn things in your bad direction - you'll be a better skater for it."  Really?  Then I think CCW skaters should have to test it in their bad direction too.  That's fair, right?  They'll be better skaters for it. 

I haven't tested it - I just moved on to bronze moves, and from there I'll go on to learn silver.  Testing is expensive, and I'm not going to bother with it if I'm not sure I'll pass. 

[FigureSpins]

Are you talking about the Forward and Backward Crossover pattern from Preliminary and Pre-Bronze Moves?  You can start the forward crossovers in either direction, so instead of doing the CCW forward crossovers first, do the CW ones, then your swingroll-edgechange-mohawk (sw-ec-mo) is done on your left foot instead of the right.

Forward and backward crossovers
The skater will perform forward crossovers in a figure eight pattern. It is expected that the skater will perform the transition between circles on one foot. Four to six crossovers per circle are recommended. Upon completing the forward figure eight, the skater will perform a swing roll and change of edge to an open mohawk in order to turn around and continue the figure eight pattern with four to six backward crossovers per circle. This move may start in either direction. Introductory steps are optional.
Focus: Continuous flow and strength

I just noticed that statement in the rulebook last week.  (I have one student who always wants to make her patterns "unique" by using any and all options, lol.)  I don't accept "I can't" from skaters, to be honest, but since you have some physical limitations, I would say to start on the other side.

I always try to stay as close as possible to the illustrated patterns, just to make it easier on the judges, but a lot of the pattern descriptions state that the pattern can be started in either foot/direction.   

Now, if the issue is that the sw-ec-mo is out of a skater's skill set on EITHER foot, sorry, I would say you weren't ready to test.

[Skittl1321]

Oh, that is nice to know for that move, thank you for.fixing my misconception, but it is moot for because I am past that test.

The problem now is switching from the fwd side to the bwd side on power pulls and cross strokes. I can't do that mohawk (or a three turn.. ccw is the issue not the turn type) that fast. As was said above, yes, I should be able to and getting better on my bad side makes me a better skater, but why shouldn't ccw skaters be "challenged" in the same way?

This is a fear/adult issue. I have a very dominant then direction due to 20 years of dance. I don't know if kids really face this.sidedness to the same extent.

[FigureSpins]

The Forward and backward power change of edge pulls and Forward and backward free skate cross strokes patterns in Adult Silver can start on either foot.  The intro and end patterns are optional, so you can do whatever you want to change from forward to backward.  Even if you started in the illustrated direction, you could turn in your comfortable direction and step over into a back crossover to traverse the end pattern with back crossovers.

Starting on the other foot would make the traffic pattern at a test session more difficult to manage, but it is allowed under the rules.  That's to accommodate the CW skaters.  I think changing the rules to have some of the patterns start on CW-skater preferred sides would result in everyone using the alternate starting foot, lol.

I think the forward edge spiral pattern is the only Silver move that doesn't allow for the skater to start on either foot.

[sarahspins]

Can I ask the obvious?  WHY do so many find it hard to do turns in both directions?  Particularly mohawks?  I don't understand since I use both direction a lot when I am skating, particularly the inside mohawks, I use the RFI (CCW) to set up for most edge jumps, but then I use a LFI (CW) to set up for most forward spins (unless I'm doing the 3 entrance).  I don't find one harder than the other because I've worked on them a lot, and I do them a lot - they are almost second nature, as they honestly should be for anyone who is ready to test at any level.

I don't personally feel that being a CCW skater gives me any advantage on the moves.  End patterns are not where I struggle - if I struggle with a given move it's actually the move itself and not what happens in between each side, and I would presume I could actually do any of the moves CW and it wouldn't bother me.  If what happens in the end pattern was really that hard, I would put more energy into fixing whatever I was struggling with.  I don't really see the "bias" towards CCW skaters in the moves.

I know that some adult onset skaters like to point at a skater like me and say "well you learned as a kid, what you have to say doesn't matter" but let me make it clear - I stepped back on the ice two years ago after taking 10 years off, and nothing has come back to me easily.  Even stroking was challenging at first.. forget any turns, or skating backwards, or jumping, even spinning was really scary.  I've worked really hard to regain skills and often my progress is slower than I would like, but I still get out there and I try.  I sometimes fall and I often feel pretty stupid trying to do things that "used to be" easy that just aren't anymore.  Apart from teh fact that I have a fundamental understanding of the mechanics of many moves/jumps/spins whatever, that doesn't usually translate into being able to do them right away.  I've never once used the "well I'm an adult so I can't do ___" as an excuse.  Some days I get out on the ice and my body doesn't want to cooperate (maybe my knees hurt, maybe my back is sore, etc), so I work on what I can.. and some days that means I do nothing but moves and no jumps or spins, and sometimes I just work on figures.  Basically that means I avoid certain moves if I know they are going to hurt me, but I am still working on other things.  I don't get nearly as much time on the ice as I would like - if I get two days to skate about an hour each time I'm doing pretty good.  Some weeks I don't even get that much.

It's hard to make progress when you have limitations, I know and completely understand that, but I think when any skater sets themselves up with the mindset that they can't do something, then of course they're not going to be able to... that's your basic self-fulfilling prophecy.

Now, back on the topic of the adult track moves, I wish they could be broken apart more... the adult track really seems to try to pack "too much" into each test.  Compare Pre-pre to Pre-Bronze and Pre-B has an extra (harder) move.  How discouraging for an adult skater who is considering testing for the first time.  Why even bother testing adult track at that point?  Both tests are pass/fail but Pre-B is technically more difficult... really THAT makes no sense.  Bronze starts and ends with moves from Pre-Juv!

I am all for offering alternatives (such as if you can't do spirals, maybe an alternative step pattern or something?) and lower passing standards for adults if those numbers actually MEAN something in real-world testing, but the way it seems right now, the adult track is harder than it needs to be, and it's definitely not encouraging for new adult skaters... or even returning adult skaters who didn't test very high before (I had just passed pre-pre and got injured - and I never renewed my club membership after that, so I never tested again).  I have posted before but I'm 99% sure I am going to continue testing standard track moves and not worry about the adult track apart from the FS levels, where the changes they've made to those tests actually make sense compared to standard track.

[Elsa]

Ooh, thank you FigureSpins!  Did it say that in the 10-11 book too?  Our coach said we had to start off CCW - that the other direction wasn't an option.  Hmm, I guess I will have to pay closer attention to these things myself.  *blushes*

[MimiG]

I don't really see the "bias" towards CCW skaters in the moves.

I'm just going to go ahead and say you don't see the bias because you are a CCW skater (as am I) - I have an CW skating adult student that skated as a kid, but was off the ice a long time (longer than 10 years). She skates synchro, so she is very ambidextrous with her turns. MOST end patterns don't phase her in the slightest, but once in a while a combination of steps is a major challenge - not in the individual turn or steps, but just in getting everything coordinated and turning against her natural direction AND maintaining speed, flow and power. If it we do those same steps CW, they pose no problem and the extra practice we have to spend on them could go to improving the main exercise. (And, yes, in the end it makes her a stronger skater, but most CCW skaters never even try the end patterns in the other direction and never have to work on them that way at all...)

[FigureSpins]

Ooh, thank you FigureSpins!  Did it say that in the 10-11 book too?  Our coach said we had to start off CCW - that the other direction wasn't an option.  Hmm, I guess I will have to pay closer attention to these things myself.  *blushes*

It's easy to overlook the "either foot" notation because it's not on the page with the pattern.  I never check unless I think I'm wrong. 

The notations are in the pattern descriptions at the start of each test's section.  The tests rulebook have always noted when there is this type of "Start on Either Foot" flexibility, including 2010-2011: http://oregonskating.org/PDF/2010-11%20Tests%20Book.pdf

Caveat: the Prel edge spiral pattern was not included as part of Adult Silver Moves in 2010-2011.  Instead, the Pre-Prel spirals on flats were required last season, but they allowed the skater to start on either foot.


ETA: Hmmm...found this note in the Compulsory Figures pdf:

Unless previously announced, the starting foot "a" or "b" shall be drawn by the Referee or Assistant Referee and announced and posted at the first official practice session of the competition. Succeeding figures in the list shall be started on alternate feet.

I'd have screwed that up, for sure.


I don't that adults have real difficulties with opposite-direction turns initially due to a loss of strength and flexibility.  It takes a great deal of effort and exercise to build muscle control and joint flexibility, which many adults just can't find the time to do.  Time is the other issue: finding the time to skate extra hours each week while working full-time and/or caring for a family creates significant obstacles.  Most rinks don't offer figure skating times that are good for someone with a 9-5 job. 

[Skittl1321]

I don't personally feel that being a CCW skater gives me any advantage on the moves.  End patterns are not where I struggle - if I struggle with a given move it's actually the move itself and not what happens in between each side, and I would presume I could actually do any of the moves CW and it wouldn't bother me.  If what happens in the end pattern was really that hard, I would put more energy into fixing whatever I was struggling with.  I don't really see the "bias" towards CCW skaters in the moves.

Sure must be nice!  You clearly don't know how frustrating it is to be able to do really really nice cross rolls, forward and back, with lovely edge rip, but not be able to test them because you can't turn from forward to backward going around the rink in that direction.  And yet, going around the rink in the other direction: no problems at all, but that isn't allowed.  I don't have them anymore, but 2 years ago I could.  It was the END PATTERNS, not the moves that were preventing me from testing.  (Now, it is the moves- having to relearn everything post injury sucks).  You can't see bias because it doesn't affect you.  Maybe you have equally great mohawks, and that's fantastic.  I don't.  If the point of the move is to test my mohawks, why does it only test one of them?  

And don't imply I don't put energy into fixing them- that's just plain rude.  I've been working for years to improve my end patterns.  For me they are flat out harder than anything on the silver test other than the 8-step mohawk in my bad direction.   That cannot possibly be the intention.

Starting on the other foot would make the traffic pattern at a test session more difficult to manage, but it is allowed under the rules.

Starting on the other foot doesn't affect anything, I don't think. These moves go straight down the rink, and regardless of what foot you are on, you still have to get around the edge of the rink CCW.   If the end patterns are truly optional I don't know why coaches here won't let me do them counter directional, maybe there is judge bias?  I'll have to fight that harder.  Although, turning counter directional kind of messes up the flow (well compared to people who can do it the "right" way) because you step down on the wrong foot, but at least I can do it.  I always turned opposite the team in synchro.  I can do the mohawks at slow speed (like 5-step) but not at full power like you need for power pulls and cross rolls.

[FigureSpins]

I was thinking of the double- or triple-paneled testing.  When I took Pre-Prel Moves, the three of us went follow-the-leader style with each skater giving the one before them a big head start.  We all did the patterns as shown in the book, so it wasn't a big deal.  If the middle skater wanted to start on the other foot/side, it would have been a different story.  If the session is run with "alternating starts," where each skater has to complete the move before the next skater begins, you're right: no big deal. 

Not to beat a dead horse, but the patterns do allow different starts for CW skaters - it's your test sessions or judges that are the obstacle here, not the rulebook.

[Skittl1321]

I meant if the test was double- or triple-paneled, the skaters wouldn't all be going in the same direction.  I guess if they handle it one-at-a-time, it really isn't a big deal - you're right.

Yes, if they allowed skating in the opposite direction.  But couldn't they just double panel you with skaters who chose to do the same?

But if it is just a matter of starting on the other foot, it doesn't make any difference to the test at all - the move still goes the same way. (That's why starting on the other foot doesn't fix the problem... except in the case of the pre-bronze moves, in which case that is a very good thing they allow that.  Since mohawks didn't used to be on the PB test at all, I was shocked they were requiring it.  Like I said, I don't think I'd be able to do that now, although, of course my crossovers were MUCH slower when I actually took PB.)

[Elsa]

Can I ask the obvious?  WHY do so many find it hard to do turns in both directions?  Particularly mohawks?  I don't understand since I use both direction a lot when I am skating, particularly the inside mohawks, I use the RFI (CCW) to set up for most edge jumps, but then I use a LFI (CW) to set up for most forward spins (unless I'm doing the 3 entrance).  I don't find one harder than the other because I've worked on them a lot, and I do them a lot - they are almost second nature, as they honestly should be for anyone who is ready to test at any level.

I can only speak for myself here, but the mohawk is really the only one that gives me A LOT of difficulty in my "wrong" direction, and it's not from lack of working on it (thanks for implying that it is though).  It has improved (though it continues to feel very awkward), and I'm sure it will continue to improve some, but falls now are a bit riskier and taking it with speed and power in that pattern pretty much guarantees a hard fall if I do go down.  I can't risk that. 

That said, like Mimi mentioned, I really do have to think harder about how to do turns when I do the opposite direction.  I do so much better when I start learning a pattern CW instead of CCW.  It makes more sense to me somehow and then I can flip it around and CCW is easier.  If I start learning the pattern CCW, it takes much longer. 

I don't personally feel that being a CCW skater gives me any advantage on the moves.  End patterns are not where I struggle - if I struggle with a given move it's actually the move itself and not what happens in between each side, and I would presume I could actually do any of the moves CW and it wouldn't bother me.  If what happens in the end pattern was really that hard, I would put more energy into fixing whatever I was struggling with.  I don't really see the "bias" towards CCW skaters in the moves.

Because the end patterns favor your natural direction.  Try flipping them around and see how that works for you.

[Elsa]

It's easy to overlook the "either foot" notation because it's not on the page with the pattern.  I never check unless I think I'm wrong. 

The notations are in the pattern descriptions at the start of each test's section.  The tests rulebook have always noted when there is this type of "Start on Either Foot" flexibility, including 2010-2011: http://oregonskating.org/PDF/2010-11%20Tests%20Book.pdf

Good to know - thank you! 

[AgnesNitt]

the Argentine Tango.

I do think that the Adults should have a different set of Moves than are on the Standard Moves test and it would be interesting to work with a group of like-minded skaters and (realistically-minded) coaches to come up with some different Moves.

I have some ideas. So include me in.

[FigureSpins]

Democracy in action - I love it!  It doesn't hurt to talk about things, or even lay out some ideas.  Just be aware that the USFSA would need to be polled on their receptiveness to new ideas.  It seems to me that they're moving towards a "one size fits all" structure with varied levels of passing based on age.

One thing to consider, though: if the existing Adult-track moves tests were split apart, you'd have to pay for more test sessions.  That *might* be offset by a lower failure rate, saving time, money and discouragements.

Example: a skater fails Silver twice before finally passing on the third try. She or he could have pulled off Pre-Silver and Silver in one attempt each.  The Pre-Silver/Silver setup would save one test session and fee.  Not to mention the psychological benefit of passing on the first attempt.  However, a skater who can handle the current Silver setup would have to pay for an extra test if it were split in two.  Just pointing it out...