I was under the impression that the Gold Star also changed the rocker in the tail - i.e., that MK and JW use "secondary rocker" differently. I believe what you and JW call secondary rocker is what others call "spin rocker".

Are you sure the Gold Star does not alter the rocker in the tail too?

What do they mean by the "complexity" of the "secondary rocker" on the Gold Star being somehow different than other blades?

I'm going to ask the question on their Facebook page too, but they may not respond.

No.  You've misunderstood what the secondary radius is.

The secondary radius is not in the back of the blade, it's in the front of the blade.  The PRIMARY (e.g. "MAIN") radius is the GLIDE radius - that's from the ball of the foot to the tail.  The SECONDARY radius is what people colloquially refer to as the "SPIN ROCKER."

When you get that, then you can see why the Gold Seal and Star are good spinning blades.  The Gold Seal is an anomaly among 8' Blades in that it doesn't have a larger secondary radius.  It has the Secondary Radius of a 7' blade with an 8' Main Radius and a higher heel stanchion to help balance this out.

Which pretty much lines up with what I've stated upthread.

You also land jumps on this part of the blade, so if it turns more easily and is more aggressive, the jump landings will be harder to control - which has been my experience moving between them.

Phantoms want to keep turning when I land jumps, so it takes more control and more optimal positioning to control jump landings.

Gold Seals have a higher heel stanchion to help position the skaters' foot optimally to balance the blade out.  It allows you to get to the pick cluster more easily (you don't have to extend your ankle or lean forward as much) and helps to place you on the right part of the blade when landing jumps, etc.  Without that design addition, it would be a very challenging blade to skate on - both for jumping and for spinning.

I've been a beginner since the late 1990s (I think), despite lessons and thousands of hours on the ice. 

I do not think I personally would have wanted to start skating - or walking or running - backwards!

But it is possible I have the most power and speed doing backwards crossovers... Probably due to the toepick. Having a rear toepick might change a lot of things.

BTW, "main rocker radius" is only my term - other people may not understand it. People usually just say "rocker radius" or sometimes "rocker" (though that also has other meanings) to mean the same thing.

MK says their Gold Star blades are "The undisputed king of spin":
https://mkblades.com/products/gold-star
I guess partly because they have a more curved "secondary rocker" in the back.

Perhaps the "undisputed" part could be disputed.

Quote from: tstop4me on March 15, 2025, 09:03:49 AMThe major issue that I see is what range of ROH (or other parameters) various people recommend for beginners, who don't know any better, and are not yet in a position to experiment and find their optimal values, because they're still struggling with basics such as balance and positioning of various body parts.

That's correct, I only give beginners a different hollow when the are ready for it.

I don't agree, and from the tests I trial judged that is not how I saw things.  Consistently, skaters were more tentative and weaker skating forwards than backwards - despite the fact that the LTS system starts there.  (Ice Dance is different, but I haven't done any dance tests.)

Not only were they more tentative going forwards, but the quality of the skating was fairly obviously weaker to me.

Then they'd do the backward pattern, and it was a complete 180.

On the crossover spirals (where they increase in speed/depth... these are on the Adult Gold test), this was almost always noticed by the judges.

Beyond that...

LTS has to focus on forward skating, as foundational elements in skating depend heavily on a skater's ability to skate forwards.

Going into spins.  4 Jumps depend on Forward Turns/Steps or Edges for entry.  Etc.

Without that progression, many skaters would get stuck in Basic Skills, unless they were being coached privately to make up for this.

Quote from: Query on March 14, 2025, 10:11:49 AMSo - a conclusion might be that people can't agree on what ROH is best. Much like other sports equipment decisions.

Ultimately, there's not one single best value of ROH (or other parameters) for every skater. There's a whole host of variables involved, and ultimately it's a matter of personal preference (skaters need to try out different values and see what they like best; and this may change over time).  And advanced skaters are more adaptable than beginner skaters.  The major issue that I see is what range of ROH (or other parameters) various people recommend for beginners, who don't know any better, and are not yet in a position to experiment and find their optimal values, because they're still struggling with basics such as balance and positioning of various body parts. 

Quote from: Nate on March 15, 2025, 02:52:48 AMI do think 8' Blades feel more stable to skate on, because most people find forward skating scarier than backward and when skating forwards you tend to place your weight further back onto the main glide rocker.  An 8ft rocker has more blade in contact with the ice, so they are going to feel more stable.

I skate during weekday morn public sessions. Over the years, I've met many beginner teen and adult skaters.  My experience has been the exact opposite:  they find the transition from skating forward to skating backward scary. 

This makes sense to me.  After all, except in limited circumstances, people generally do not walk or run backwards, so moving backwards is an unfamiliar sensation overall. 

Also, when starting to learn skating backwards, they are not adept enough to turn their heads around, such that they are looking in the direction in which they are skating.  They're essentially skating blind, and that's scary.

Furthermore, since they're concerned about falling backwards, they compensate by leaning forward, often with their arms and hands stretched out in front of them, in anticipation of a fall.  It takes a while before they're comfortable shifting their weight more to the back.

Lastly, if skating forwards were indeed more scary than backwards, I would think that LTS (or equivalent) programs would be configured to teach backwards skating first.  But I'm not aware of any programs that do.

Those printouts are of very little practical use, because main rocker radius is not a huge factor.  Rocker Profile is.

I do think 8' Blades feel more stable to skate on, because most people find forward skating scarier than backward and when skating forwards you tend to place your weight further back onto the main glide rocker.  An 8ft rocker has more blade in contact with the ice, so they are going to feel more stable.

This has always been my experience between the two.

As far as spinning, I think that has more to do with the Rocker Profile than the Radius.  Gold Seals are great for spinnning, because they have a fairly aggressive forward rocker and high lift angle.

Gold Seals are an exception among 8' blades, though.  Most have relatively low lift angles and flatter forward rockers (with Pattern 99 being the extreme of this).  This is also why jump landings tend to be more stable on 8' blades (something that I also kind of agree with, personally).

Conversely, most 7' blades - even high-level blades like Phantom and Gold Star - have fairly round forward rockers with high lift angle.  This makes them easier to spin on.

These blades spin easily.  They require a lot more control for jump landings, and without proper check it's very easy to flip/spin out of them, overcook turns, etc.  I almost feel like I could spin at any point on my Phantoms.

Controlling jump landings is was probably the biggest adjustment going to them.

Switching between 8' blades, I never had that issue (however, I have never worn Gold Seals, as the stanchions are too much for me).

So - a conclusion might be that people can't agree on what ROH is best. Much like other sports equipment decisions.

For 3 years I offer skate sharpening in Singapore.
First sharpening is for free as well as any new RoH they want to try.
I do this because sharpening is a hobby for me, and I love to see the progress of the skaters. I am skating myself and can see what happens when they try out different radii.
With deeper hollows there is more friction to overcome and that's the struggle for beginners because they don't have the speed and the skills. For them it feels like being a train on the tracks.
A larger RoH (19 till 25mm) is more easy for them and also allows them to sense how a proper edge should feel, and at the same time be forgiving in things like T-stops and hockey stops.
This is confirmed by the experience of the skaters using different radii.
The skaters are a mix of hockeys, figures and recreational skates.
Advanced figure skaters are a small group only, there are no expert skaters, and they prefer radii between 13mm and 19mm (½" and ¾").
Advanced freestylers on hockey skates perform best on RoH 25mm to 32mm (1" to 1¼").