A discussion: Skate choices

[AlbaNY]

So, I have noticed some interesting differences in Germany compared to the US and Romania regarding the choice of skate colour and type.

In the US I saw a fair amount of tan skates (almost always on show skaters or coaches.)  Here and there some coaches had really fun bold coloured suede customs.  I think I saw three pair like that in person?  (Bright pink, purple, and bright blue.)
Otherwise, in person, I saw white on females and black on men.  Years ago I bought a recreational pair in black, I considered black for my customs, but found my beloved grey was an option after already deciding on white.
In Romania it was white for females and black for males, and I don't think I even saw tan?

In Germany a lot of women have black skates.  I see one in a black pair basically every time I skate.  My own grey ones are the only "colourful" pair I've noticed yet too.  There are a lot of Edeas and Riedells around.
Another unusual thing is how frequently I see inline-type hockey skates/skating.  In-line type freestyle is super popular here.  Also, men very frequently figure skate (even dance and pairs) in hockey skates here.  Back in NY there was a figure skating coach in hockey skates, but it was just him I saw.  Here it seems 50/50 that the guy is in hockey blades.  I saw beautiful pair skating last week with the man on hockey blades.  I was talking to Coach Cheerful today, and she said that's dangerous, but they seemed to be doing very well. 

I thought it would be fun to start a discussion.

[Query]

I'm thinking hard of using good hockey skates for this. I like the idea of not having a raised heel, or an upwards bend along the boot length.

Two days ago I tried to spin and jump on hockey skates, without removing the blades. I hate toe picks, but discovered I've become totally dependent on them, and basically couldn't. Also, I need to avoid backwards leans.

So I need to remove the blades (harder to do on some hockey skates than others, and I need to remove the rivets), and adding my figure blades.

But maybe my current blade length is too long without raised heels? Because to some extent, it is the vertically projected length of the foot that should matter to blade length.

[Bill_S]

About 15 years ago, one of the male coaches here would switch back and forth between figure skates and hockey skates when he taught. He was a junior-level pairs skater who had competed nationally in the past.

For grins, he'd sometimes do a spin wearing his hockey skates in a freestyle session. I guess that if you have talent, anything is possible.

[AlbaNY]

Query, you might like them if you keep adjusting to the blades.  It doesn't take too long to remember the lack of toe picks and curved tail.  The hardest part for me is to remember not to try stopping by dragging a toe pick when going backwards but to hockey stop instead. 
As for putting figure blades on that's an interesting task.  I don't know about adult sizes, but for kids it seems common to find hockey type boots with somewhat hybrid blades with a little toe pick.  You might like that?

Bill, what I see some of these guys doing is impressive.
The high level coach at my old rink could do pretty much anything in his hockey skates and probably doesn't own a figure pair.  I've seen nice spins and jumps by guys in hockey skates quite often.  Then there are the handstands and other non-figure type stuff popular around here.

[Query]

The hardest part for me is to remember not to try stopping by dragging a toe pick when going backwards but to hockey stop instead.

I use a backwards snow plow, pressing through my heels, so not a problem.

I vaguely remember it being against USFS rules to use hockey boots (or blades) for tests - is that out of date? I might try to pass USFS Pre-Bronze skating skills.

Perhaps composite hockey skates stink more than leather figure skates.

[Query]

I'm thinking hard of using good hockey skates for this. I like the idea of not having a raised heel, or an upwards bend along the boot length.

Two days ago I tried to spin and jump on hockey skates, without removing the blades. I hate toe picks, but discovered I've become totally dependent on them, and basically couldn't. Also, I need to avoid backwards leans.

So I need to remove the blades (harder to do on some hockey skates than others, and I need to remove the rivets), and adding my figure blades.

But maybe my current blade length is too long without raised heels? Because to some extent, it is the vertically projected length of the foot that should matter to blade length.

The person who runs the pro shop at Gardens Ice House in Laurel, MD, USA, pointed out to me today that hockey skates do have raised heels - in fact they have mostly been raised 3 cm higher than they used to be a few years ago. And they are roughly as high as figure skate heels. In the case of hockey skates, the "heel" is in the blade holder, rather than something that looks like a high heel, as in figure skates.

But where hockey and figure boot insole shapes differ is in the upwards bend near the ball of the foot. There is much less upwards bend in hockey boots.

Yesterday I bought used hockey boots: Bauer Vapor 500 model for $75, in very good condition, though the blade runners, which are easily replaced, have some wear. I showed them to him, and asked about heat molding - he said he would charge $50.

They only require 175 degrees F to heat mold - more or less achievable with some handheld hair driers.

I have previously been unwilling to use a regular home oven, because their temperature regulation is poor. But,
https://www.icewarehouse.com/lc/skates/how-to-bake-a-hockey-skate-at-home.html
points out a fix - use an oven thermometer, and insert the boots after turning the oven off. Page gives very detailed directions.

I didn't have time to ask what he would charge to remove rivets, or whether he carries the bolts and nuts that could hold figure blades on hockey boots.

[Query]

BTW that shop also fits custom figure skates from Jackson, Riedell, and Edea (he was trained by David Rippon to reshape Edeas); says Jackson custom skates only take 8 weeks (unlike Harlick's 1.5 years) and are cheaper, though they don't customize as much. He could look at my feet later to decide which brands I custom boots I could use.

BTW, Mike doesn't think dropping the raised heel is a good idea. But I have always hated them.

That shop did a truly awful job, about 20 years ago, of fitting my full custom Klingbeil boots. But it is under new management - Mike is the main guy's new name. The skate tech who messed mine up (and at least a dozen other people's that I know of) is long gone.

I've previously discussed these things in more general terms with the guy in charge of the pro shop at Bowie, and may also discuss them with they guy in charge at the pro shop at Ashburn, who has very good reviews.

But I would appreciate any comments you folks have on the reasons for the raised heel and the strong upwards bend, and on the idea of mounting figure blades on hockey boots.

[Query]

This guy put figure blades on hockey boots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7yuz1Ccero

But he shimed the rear to create a raised heel. I might instead shim just so the surfaces match, but not raise the heel, or not as much.

I was thinking of using wood for shims, because it's cheap, light, widely available, easy to work, and accepts wood screws. But he cuts a hockey puck to shape, which is pretty cheap and widely available too, and is already black.

[AlbaNY]

Hi Query,

The only input I have is that in street shoes I can't stand heels over about an inch maybe inch and a half.  I think my skates have a "normal" heel?  It said custom or special on the order form but was the same as my old pair and a few others I acquired (1 3/4" I believe offhand.)

From what I read some brands pitch skaters forward with a bit more heel to help with jumping?  I've seen some interesting YouTube videos of people trying out antique skates, and from books also I saw that in the distant past the heels were a lot lower.  This is circa '20s maybe '30s.  I'd love to try some if I could.

[LunarSkater]

I vaguely remember it being against USFS rules to use hockey boots (or blades) for tests - is that out of date? I might try to pass USFS Pre-Bronze skating skills.

Perhaps composite hockey skates stink more than leather figure skates.

Hockey blades are allowed for skating skills tests, according to the current rulebook:
6037 Skate blades: Figure skating blades used during competitions and tests (or hockey skate blades used during skating skills
tests or skating skills events at competitions) must be sharpened to produce a flat to concave cross section without change to the width of the blade as measured between the two edges. However, a slight tapering or narrowing of the cross section of the blade is permitted.


In my years of assisting with skate sharpening, any non-leather material stinks to high heaven if not taken proper care of. Padding in the boots, the material the boots are made out of, the socks stuffed into the toes to wear again... Yes, your hockey boots will hold more funk than a leather skating boot.

[Query]

In my years of assisting with skate sharpening, any non-leather material stinks to high heaven if not taken proper care of. Padding in the boots, the material the boots are made out of, the socks stuffed into the toes to wear again... Yes, your hockey boots will hold more funk than a leather skating boot.

There are, BTW, a variety of rules about the size and nature of markings on blades at the ISU website. I'm not sure to what extent local USFS approved competitions (or Skate Usa competitions) have to conform to ISU rules. I don't know if all hockey blades conform. But I wasn't thinking of using hockey blades for figure skating - just hockey boots.

There are a bunch of products and procedures advertised to prevent or reduce boot odor, e.g., https://thorogoodusa.com/how-to-keep-work-boots-from-stinking (note they suggest treating the feet as well as the boots), https://www.reddit.com/r/Boots/comments/16ow4qr/work_boot_stink_tried_everything/?rdt=54974 (someone suggested vodka!), https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-get-a-bad-stink-out-of-a-pair-of-boots, standard antiperspirants and deodorants (or both), ozone, fungicides, etc.

Do you know if any of them work well for everyone?

I don't understand why leather would stink less than plastic and plastic/fiber composites, since I would think it would absorb sweat more.

If it's because leather makers add "tanning" chemicals like chromium sulfate to leather so it doesn't rapidly decompose, that ought to be possible for non-leather materials too. If it's because leather breathes, which helps get rid of sweat, I'm not sure how true that is of high level figure skating boots, which have stiffening layers. Anyway, many socks wick sweat away.

I've never noticed much of a smell on my skate boots (which admittedly are leather), hockey and speed skating boots (both of which I only used a little), hiking boots (also leather), ski boots, or tennis shoes - but my sense of smell isn't all that great, and my feet don't sweat much. But maybe if I used hockey boots a lot the problem would be worse.

[LunarSkater]

Local competitions, at least in the US, are required to follow USFS rules. USFS rules can be different than ISU rules. ISU rules are applied at international competitions and in the US, at the Junior and Senior levels. Because those are the levels that compete internationally. If you're ever interested, a good examination between the two is the difference in how Adult skating is handled nationally vs the two Adult ISU competitions. The rules are different for program lengths, allowed elements, etc. The US has a large enough adult skating community to have our own national program. Most other countries do not.


Because artificial materials do not breathe like natural ones. Its why hockey padding stinks so badly. It's made out of foam, which can't be laundered. Same for boots like Edea. The materials absorb odor and do not release them like natural materials. A lot of the internal padding in skates depends on what brand and boot you purchase and how far you're customizing if that's the route chosen.

I have no idea what products work and what don't. What skaters choose to use - or not - is their business. The best way to combat smells is to open the skate up and take it out of the bag. Too many people don't do that, which is why some skates can stink a lot worse than others.

[Query]

Thanks!

Interesting that the USFS is apparently worried about blades that are not sharpened to be flat or with a concave shape, and/or for blades whose width varies by more than a "slight" amount. Perhaps those rules are just there just in case there is an advantage, rather than for any known advantage. Though the first part might be to make edge changes observable.

A bit off topic, but perhaps they need more explicit equipment rules for tests and competitions. Blades with circular picks might make spin and pivots & turns easier. A skater could push a button to extend the toepick or tail, or make the blade wider, only when desired. More elastic boots or insoles or actual mechanisms could store energy for higher jumps, and faster spins and rotations. Audio or augmented reality devices used in tests and competitions could provide guidance and feedback (perhaps even coach feedback) on patterns & program elements. The absence of rules invites their eventual use. Perhaps they are already covertly used.

Some of these ideas would be fun for recreational use!

[LunarSkater]

USFS doesn't want people attempting figure skating stuff in blades that aren't meant for figure skating. Flat = speed skater. Concave = unable to skate on edges, which is what figure skating depends on. Also, have you seen anyone try to skate with a concave? I have, in LTS. Never had their blades sharpened and were on a factory 'sharpening.' In other words, can't skate.

Blades with circular toe picks? That seems to me designed to cause faceplants. Toe picks are sharp for very specific reasons; namely, to assist with those jumps and spins.

As for blade technology, people are working on similar things. All that stuff you listed isn't illegal, but the technology is not there for wide implementation - or is downright impossible without making skates too heavy to wear. Related, check out Blade Science: https://www.blade.science

There are augmented reality programs out there. Some countries, I think Japan, uses those in their newscasts to calculate speed, jump distance, jump height, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if those kind of programs are being used in national-level training centers.

[Query]

USFS doesn't want people attempting figure skating stuff in blades that aren't meant for figure skating. Flat = speed skater.

USFS allows flat, as you pointed out in an earlier response. Maybe it is good for school figures and skating skills? Some skaters go so long between sharpening that maybe they go slightly convex.

Concave = unable to skate on edges, which is what figure skating depends on.  Also, have you seen anyone try to skate with a concave?

I assume you mean convex. If someone sharpened figure skating blades convex with a narrow angle like a kitchen knife, I bet they would sink into the ice until they stopped.

But maybe there would be other shapes, like concave with a thin convex line down the middle, that would achieve something.

Blades with circular toe picks? That seems to me designed to cause faceplants.  Toe picks are sharp for very specific reasons; namely, to assist with those jumps and spins.

Perhaps that would depend on how small the circle was, and how sharp the angle. E.g., if it had a sphere bottom shape, it would help prevent traveling while spinning. Perhaps there are other shapes that might be better in some ways.

As for blade technology, people are working on similar things. All that stuff you listed isn't illegal, but the technology is not there for wide implementation - or is downright impossible without making skates too heavy to wear. Related, check out Blade Science: https://www.blade.science

Fascinating. But I would consider it cheating to build springs, solenoids, motors, or equivalent into boots or blades so you could jump higher, or skate or spin faster. But they are mostly talking about damping landings, to reduce injury.

There are augmented reality programs out there.

There is a difference between using aids for training, and using them to overcome memory or control problems during a test or competition - e.g., imagine being able to see the dance pattern you are trying to follow (or hearing tones that tell you to move left or right). I would consider that cheating too. Or hearing coach feedback, without judges' knowledge. Or music without reverb.

Battery heated hockey blades, to reduce friction, never became popular. I don't know whether that was due to excess weight, or a reduced ability to push and stop.