Tsubame blades

[Kaitsu]

Relatively new blade manufacturer from the Japan. They have also some videos of hollow polishing. I did order their oil stones, but after the ordering I realized that I mixed diameter and radius. At least with my skills I was not able to polish hollow without rounding the edge too. Maybe I am just not enough skilled and mixing the stone diameter to radius was completely my mistake. Nevertheless, here is one blade option if you want something else than most dominating brands blades.

https://www.tsubame-blade.com/

[tstop4me]

Thanks for the post.  I've been hoping that Japanese manufacturers would get into the figure skate blade market.

[AlbaNY]

Quite interesting! 

I like that they are stainless and wouldn't mind trying them sometime. 
The price seems around 200 USD?  That's not bad.
The heart cutout option at the tail is really cute.

It is a total mystery to a buy though.  If they want to get much of a market beyond Japan some more information must be given to help a potential buyer decide.  There is not way to know how they compare to popular blades the way you can with the others. 
I'm also unsure about the sharpenings.  It sounds like you need a special machine?  The stones look like the kind in my new Profilers.  Doe they sharpen with that kind of tool?  (If so, could I potentially use this brand to replace my stones when they need to be?).

...I googled before posting, and they have a YouTube video of sharpening.  They just hold the stone in their hand!  I liked the vice holding the blade but wonder how to hold it as well when mounted.  https://youtu.be/JfZNcQM-Q9I?si=qgE8v8DxxYLXtjpb
With my local sharpening woes this is now the most interesting part of this thread. 

[Bill_S]

I liked the vice holding the blade but wonder how to hold it as well when mounted.

To hold already mounted blades for hand sharpening, I made this widget a number of years ago...



Thread here...

http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8371.0

[AlbaNY]

That's so nice Bill!
Of course now I want one. 


Tomorrow I'll post a bit about a response from the blade makers to questions I asked regarding the blade profiles and such.

[NiceIce]

...I'm also unsure about the sharpenings.  It sounds like you need a special machine?  The stones look like the kind in my new Profilers.  Doe they sharpen with that kind of tool?  (If so, could I potentially use this brand to replace my stones when they need to be?).

...With my local sharpening woes this is now the most interesting part of this thread. 

Ah no,

They explain in the question asked, that they first use a machine.  They only use the hand honing to polish the hollow afterwards to remove "waves and burrs" which can happen from a machine if one is not careful.  I've tried various hand hones like that which come with holders to try and keep them straight, but they really don't have the power necessary to sharpen a blade well.  In addition, the sharpening stone used in these will never be re-surfaced so how often are they replaced?  On a machine, resurfacing the stone is done as needed to maintain the proper curve as the stone wears from sharpenings.

Looking at these particular blades, they would not need a special machine since they are a standard flat blade.  Some machines would need a special holder for Matrix, Paramount, Revolution, etc blades where there is a separate blade and a thicker chassis because some skate holders were not made to open that wide.  However, I have not seen a machine yet that cannot do them and my machine has no problem with them.

As to value, they seem to be well made blades.  An important consideration currently is that some manufacturers are using computer controlled machining (CNC) which will give precise and repeatable manufacturing every time.  So blades like the Matrix and Paramount end up being very reliable.  I've been sharpening for over fifteen years and see the difference between these types vs traditional types where I see occasional machining and manufacturing errors (bent stanchions, uneven chrome relief, differing profiles, etc).  Likely these Japanese blades would also be CNC made since they are new to making blades and would likely just use the methods they use for other parts they make (CNC is nearly universal in production now.)

Sharpening woes are everywhere I think!  What are your particular issues?  (Sorry I haven't read a lot of the threads here).


M

[Bill_S]

I've tried various hand hones like that which come with holders to try and keep them straight, but they really don't have the power necessary to sharpen a blade well.  In addition, the sharpening stone used in these will never be re-surfaced so how often are they replaced?

Just a counterpoint to this blanket statement about hand sharpeners....

From around 2001 to 2021 I used the ProFiler hand sharpening system exclusively to maintain my blades, i.e., no power sharpening. For figure skating blades, a ProFiler kit consisted of a rough diamond stone, and a fine grind stone in two separate holders. You can get about 10 years' worth of sharpening from a kit if you don't tax them with tasks like frequently changing a hollow. That kit worked, but sadly has been discontinued. I now own a power sharpener because of experiments with various blades and hollows, including thinner dance blades.

The ProFiler system worked very well. It produced very sharp edges, up there with the best power sharpening, including this time when I managed to skate over laces that came untied...



There are lots of threads here about using the ProFiler hand sharpeners. There are a number of people here that use them, and I even keep a set for myself despite now having a power skate sharpening machine.

[AlbaNY]

Wow, Bill!  Plenty sharp indeed 

NiceIce, yes... I realised my mistake about it being a final polishing. 
My sharpening woes are having moved to another continent from the guys I trust.  My options since last june were:
-while open a trip to Romania having a guy hand holding them to sharpen, vertically, freehand, with a bench grinder.
-a Sparx machine at a very hockey oriented rink.
-sending them out with the group for sharpening in another city not knowing the place/tech at all.
-learning to deal with dull blades after 7 months until my mother could bring the Pro-Filers I bought.

I used to let the guy with the bench grinder do it and was actually entirely happy, but since splurging on Pattern 99s I'm now extremely cautious.  I'm debating bringing my skates home next month to have sharpened in NY, but I'm getting my customs then and have a lot of things I want to bring back... not sure if I should take up the precious space and weight.     (Currently leaning toward not bringing them.)

[AlbaNY]

As for the Tsubame blades, my interest is rather stupidly keen.  I have very new expensive blades, a brand new pair of the same for the new skates, and have zero reason for yet more!  However, I would really love to try them.

I'm curious about the feel both due to the design and the stainless steel, and they just look neat and are different.  Great reasons to spend money, lol.  I fully expect to get a pair later this year to try.  If I love them they'll probably be promptly discontinued, that's my luck usually.  (Like, I was about to buy Skate Science blades only to find those gone.)

A company representative was very quick to answer my questions.  They would not make comparisons to the well known brands saying that their design is not an attempt to copy any.  I'd prefer more information as a consumer, and I geek out on such things, but I'm interested enough to make a gamble on the idea.  As I anticipated they recommended I'd prefer the Stream 2 blade coming from 99s.  So, one day I'll probably be posting a review here and on YouTube.... After I get money for my birthday, a long lost & wealthy relative passes leaving me as an heir, or my darned residency and work permits finally make it through the wonders of German bureaucracy.   

[Kaitsu]

I agree that they reply very quickly and service is excellent. I would also love to see their blades on my hands to see example the "chrome removal" grinding quality. I hate how most of the blade manufacturers rounds the corner of the blades when they remove chrome layer. Another issue is that chrome removal grinding is often very coarse.

I would also like to see how well they can keep blades straight when they are Tig welded. If I would start to make figure skate blades, I would probably try laser welding or just brazing like most of the blade manufacturers. They explain that welding seam is wider than brazing and that makes blades to be stronger. Is that extra strength really needed? I have seen bent toe plates, but only ones broken brazing and it went broken just because of faulty brazing. I have seen huge brazing in very very old Phantoms, so it would be possible to increase seam also with the brazing. Time will tell how this welding works. At least it is very different to any other blade manufacturer methods...and slow manufacturing process.

I really hope they are able to get their products to US and European, markets so that people does have more choices. 

[tstop4me]

I ran their website through Google translate. They say the blades are fabricated from stainless steel (no grade given).  So there would be no chrome relief.

[Kaitsu]

I know, still they do the same grinding.

[tstop4me]

Do you know why they do that when it's not needed?  I have an Eclipse Aurora; stainless steel, traditional design with blade body brazed to heel and sole plates.  The blade body is mirror polished with a laser-scribed simulated chrome relief demarcation, but no grinding.

[NiceIce]

Just a counterpoint to this blanket statement about hand sharpeners....

Hi,

I didn't intend to make it a blanket statement, just the ones I tried previously were not good.  The tool you found sounds very good -- with a diamond main grinding stone it should last a long time.  But like you may have found, skaters have different preferences for their hollow based on many factors like skater weight, discipline, skill level, etc. so being able to sharpen to the skater's desired hollow is the advantage of a sharpening machine.

M.

[NiceIce]

Do you know why they do that when it's not needed?  I have an Eclipse Aurora; stainless steel, traditional design with blade body brazed to heel and sole plates.  The blade body is mirror polished with a laser-scribed simulated chrome relief demarcation, but no grinding.

It was preventable, but on the polished stainless STEP company blades I've seen, they polished the blade after cutting the profile so they ended up rounding the blade edge during the polishing process.  Effectively this gave the opposite of a dovetail or hollow ground side and made them terrible to sharpen.  The rounding went about 2mm down the side, so the effect of the rounding will last quite awhile.  Relief grinding would be a way to correct this, but one could just polish the blade before cutting the profile and then there is nothing to worry about.  It's possible that Tsubami blades are made of thicker material and then they relief grind it to make them the same width of other blades at the edge.

I've only ever heard of silver brazed blades breaking (Gold Star?) as silver is not as strong a brass.  But I've never heard of a brass brazed blade breaking.  I more suspect that welding is faster for them and that they already have a process to do that, instead of using brazing which likely has to be done by hand.

AlbaNY, can you afford to buy a machine?  There's a used one on Craigslist in NY right now for $1200 (likely could talk them down).  It would be very easy to pay for itself even just doing local skaters' blades.


M

[tstop4me]

It was preventable, but on the polished stainless STEP company blades I've seen, they polished the blade after cutting the profile so they ended up rounding the blade edge during the polishing process.  Effectively this gave the opposite of a dovetail or hollow ground side and made them terrible to sharpen.  The rounding went about 2mm down the side, so the effect of the rounding will last quite awhile.  Relief grinding would be a way to correct this, but one could just polish the blade before cutting the profile and then there is nothing to worry about. 

Interesting comment about Step blades.  What vintage are you talking about?  Up until a couple of years ago, the Eclipse blades (including the Aurora I have) were manufactured by Step.  My Aurora doesn't have the edge rounding you mentioned.  The Aurora was introduced in early 2015, and I purchased it in late 2016.

[AlbaNY]

NiceIce, I have definitely toyed with the idea of buying a machine.  Now that I'm not working I'd have to convince my husband unfortunately.  The biggest argument in my favour would be if I could sharpen for others.  My understanding is that it's a real pain to get even a small home business legally set up in Germany. 
I'm pretty happy with the Pro-Filer at this point and now have more options for a machine sharpening a couple times a year too.

You mentioned Step blades.  I called all over the US and Canada trying to get my hands on a pair of their NinetyNines, but no luck. 

[tstop4me]

Hi,

I didn't intend to make it a blanket statement, just the ones I tried previously were not good.  The tool you found sounds very good -- with a diamond main grinding stone it should last a long time.  But like you may have found, skaters have different preferences for their hollow based on many factors like skater weight, discipline, skill level, etc. so being able to sharpen to the skater's desired hollow is the advantage of a sharpening machine.

M.

The Pro-Filer was never marketed for commercial shops, but for individual users, who generally stick to one ROH.  The Pro-Filer had kits for 1/2", 3/8", and (on again/off again) 5/16" ROH. At some point they also had a kit purportedly 7/16", but it was identical to the 3/8" kit except for the ID stickers (a marketing ploy that drew some sharp criticism).

[NiceIce]

Interesting comment about Step blades.  What vintage are you talking about?  Up until a couple of years ago, the Eclipse blades (including the Aurora I have) were manufactured by Step.  My Aurora doesn't have the edge rounding you mentioned.  The Aurora was introduced in early 2015, and I purchased it in late 2016.

Hi,

Probably a blade from about four years ago.  The family had one girl on a polished stainless model and another on a carbon steel one.  The quality of the blades was very high except for that one issue.  I saw the rounding just on the polished one and on one I saw at a shop.  You can see it by observing the reflection of the blade as you look towards the edge.  It might have been corrected by them quickly -- you don't see so many of those blades around.  I thought Reidell bought STEP, but I'm not sure as I still see the STEP site up (and I was thinking STEP bought out ISE.)

M.

[NiceIce]

NiceIce, I have definitely toyed with the idea of buying a machine.  Now that I'm not working I'd have to convince my husband unfortunately.  The biggest argument in my favour would be if I could sharpen for others.  My understanding is that it's a real pain to get even a small home business legally set up in Germany. 
I'm pretty happy with the Pro-Filer at this point and now have more options for a machine sharpening a couple times a year too.

You mentioned Step blades.  I called all over the US and Canada trying to get my hands on a pair of their NinetyNines, but no luck. 

Hmm,

I suppose in Germany they would catch even if you just took cash :-p  That's great the Pro-Filer tool is working well and you have some sharpening options.  Another option would be to get the new Ultima blade with detachable runners, and then buy a few extra and have them sharpened somewhere good first.

As to 99's, I think Paramount and Ultima both make a copy.  Note JW's new Phoenix 99 doesn't have the lower stanchions which was a big feature of the 99.  I don't know why they switched it just on that model :-/


M

[tstop4me]

Hi,

Probably a blade from about four years ago.  The family had one girl on a polished stainless model and another on a carbon steel one.  The quality of the blades was very high except for that one issue.  I saw the rounding just on the polished one and on one I saw at a shop.  You can see it by observing the reflection of the blade as you look towards the edge.  It might have been corrected by them quickly -- you don't see so many of those blades around.  I thought Reidell bought STEP, but I'm not sure as I still see the STEP site up (and I was thinking STEP bought out ISE.)

M.

Riedell had contracted manufacture of their Eclipse blades to Step.  Step was then bought up by CCM, but continued manufacturing Eclipse blades for Riedell.  But then CCM also bought up Jackson/Ultima (boots and blades), which is a head-on-head competitor of Riedell/Eclipse (boots and blades).  So now Riedell needs a new manufacturer for Eclipse.  I went last week to my tech for a sharpening.  I saw that he had no Eclipse blades on display (which he previously had).  He told me for now he can't order any.

[Query]

The Pro-Filer was never marketed for commercial shops, but for individual users, who generally stick to one ROH.  The Pro-Filer had kits for 1/2", 3/8", and (on again/off again) 5/16" ROH. At some point they also had a kit purportedly 7/16", but it was identical to the 3/8" kit except for the ID stickers (a marketing ploy that drew some sharp criticism).

People are still selling, and some presumably still using the old Berghman hand sharpeners that were made (I think) in the 1920s and 1930s. They were excellent tools, I think better than the Pro-Filers, except they used what I think was a natural grindstone, that was much coarser and crumbly than either of the Pro-filer kit stones. Also, they only came in 1/2" ROH.

I did for a while try a 1/2" Pro-Filer kit stone (from the hockey kit, that only had the coarse [diamond dust] stone, and had thinner gaps), in the Berghman handle. But 1/2" isn't sharp enough for me.

But my best guess is that people will keep selling used Pro-Filer kits too, and replacing the stones with other abrasive cylinders. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with those other abrasive cylinders, so I can't tell you what types work well. There are various abrasive cylinders (also called round stones, and a bunch of other names) sold, made from various abrasives embedded in various resins. I think the Pro-Filer coarse stone is about 80 grit (U.S.A. scale) diamond dust, and the fine stone is about 120 or 160 grit Aluminum Oxide abrasive - but may not be exactly right.

[AlbaNY]

Hmm,

I suppose in Germany they would catch even if you just took cash :-p  That's great the Pro-Filer tool is working well and you have some sharpening options.  Another option would be to get the new Ultima blade with detachable runners, and then buy a few extra and have them sharpened somewhere good first.

As to 99's, I think Paramount and Ultima both make a copy.  Note JW's new Phoenix 99 doesn't have the lower stanchions which was a big feature of the 99.  I don't know why they switched it just on that model :-/

The Phoenix caught my eye in the shop, and that got me started on switching to Pattern 99s.  Usually I'm more into old school type designs, but they looked really nice.  I couldn't find much positive information online though, and my coaches like Pattern 99.

Germany is... yeah. 
I'm glad to have a solution.  Really dull blades entirely suck.  I guess they make you learn to use more pressure, but... bleh.

Interchangeable runners is a great idea.  I hope that goes well for Ultima.

[Query]

We've drifted a bit off topic, partly my fault. Anyone know anything about the actual Tsubame blades?

Very odd that they mix English and Japanese (I guess) on the same pages. I would have thought that would make it harder to sell. But I guess they are fairly new to this.