Intermediate blade choices (MK Pro, Paramount SP)

[mjebos86]

After five years in my current skates (Jackson Debuts / MK Pros), it's time for a new pair!

I had a really productive fitting yesterday. With my wide forefoot, narrow heels, and flat arches, I can be a tricky fit for stock boots - I ended up trying on something from every major brand! We landed on the Risport Royal Pro, which surprised me with how well it suited my foot shape straight out of the box. However, they're backordered for a few months - so I have plenty of time to make my mind up on blades.

I've been happy with the Pros, in general, and wouldn't mind sticking with them. The other blade I am considering is the Paramount SP - which is their intermediate level stainless blade. It checks off quite a few boxes for me - it's got (at least according to Paramount) the same spin rocker and heel lift as the MK Pro / Gold Seal, at a reasonable price. And I tend to like my blades on the sharper side, so the longer edge retention of stainless blades is attractive to me as well.

My fitter said she doesn't usually sell a lot of Paramounts, but she's happy to look into getting them for me. However, she did say she thinks I might be better off the with the standard MK Pro, as I'm interested in possibly picking up dance in the future. She thinks the 7' main rocker makes the Pro more maneuverable than the SP (which I believe has an 8' main rocker - the only Paramount blade that appears to have a 7' rocker is their 17" freestyle blade/Phantom clone). She also said that she finds stainless blades have less glide than carbon steel blades.

I don't think I'm that worried about the 7' vs 8' rocker, personally - I feel like the spin rocker makes a more tangible difference - but I was a bit surprised to hear her say that the stainless blades have less glide. I feel like I've always heard the opposite!

So I'm curious to hear others' thoughts and experiences:

1) For folks who have switched from carbon steel to stainless blades - have you noticed a difference in terms of glide between the two?

2) Does anyone have experience with the Paramount SP or SA Intermediate blades specifically? How do you like them?

3) If anyone has an idea for another blade that they think might suit my needs, suggestions are always welcome!

Thank you all in advance!

[Christy]

From your post you definitely went to the best fitter in the area, so they really know their stuff.

I've never tried Paramount, but do love Jackson Matrix blades, which are also stainless steel, but I do find the sharpness and longevity of the sharpening depends on the sharpener as well as the blade. I know a few people who've had problems with quality on MK and JW, and a fitter I spoke to a few months ago said they found the Jackson quality to be much better. Of course they all have their personal preferences.

[Query]

I've wondered to what extent my own experiences, which included longer edge lifetime on stainless steel edges, depended on how I took care of them. In particular, maybe if I had really really dried out the the non-stainless blades (with a hair or hand drier??), then oiled them after every use, maybe their edges could have lasted as long as stainless steel edges?

For ice dance, my favorite blades were MK Dance, which I think are the most popular blades among high elite ice dancers. Fast, and long glides, because of the slimline cut, which also allows rapid edge changes, and you can lean somewhat forwards without tripping over the backwards angled toe pick. But I doubt the toe pick shape and slimline design at the bottom of MK Dance would please freestyle skaters - harder to jump and to center spins.

If you have a coach, ask them too. The style a coach prefers might work better with some blades than others. E.g., the ballroom-like-lean style I was taught, leaning forwards when skating forwards, back when skating back, probably contributed a lot to my loving MK Dance.

All that said, I'm not an expert skater. So take this all with a grain of salt.

[tstop4me]

I skated for many years on Wilson Coronation Ace (7' main rocker radius; plain carbon steel); tried the Eclipse Aurora ("comparable to" the Coronation Ace; 440C stainless steel) for about a year; for the past several years on the Paramount 12" (their version of the Wilson Gold Seal; 8' main rocker radius; 440C stainless steel).

* Stainless steel is more difficult to sharpen than plain carbon steel.  If a tech is telling you that stainless steel has a poorer glide than plain carbon steel, then they probably don't know how to sharpen stainless steel properly.  PBHE is a Canadian company that specializes in servicing figure skates; even they apparently don't know how to sharpen stainless steel properly:  (http://precisionblade.com/index.php/glossary/)

"Stainless steel blades have a chromium content that causes the steel to curl preventing a clean sharp edge. Due to this PBHE does not currently sharpen these blades. Stainless has the advantage of being rust resistant but at a cost of reduced edge control. Stainless 440 C and AUS 8 has other specific grinding problems that have yet to be solved by grinding specialists."

I'm not sure about their technical explanation, but, relative to plain carbon steel, 440C stainless steel does wear down the grinding wheel faster, does overheat more readily, and does leave more persistent burrs (which requires more careful finishing to achieve a good edge).  The intermediate Paramount blades that you are considering have 420HC stainless steel runners; not as problematic as 440C, but still more difficult to sharpen than plain carbon steel.  So you need a tech with expertise in sharpening stainless steel.  Contrary  to PBHE's pronouncement, some grinding specialists have solved the grinding problems of various grades of stainless steel (just not them). 

(cont'd below)

[tstop4me]

(cont'd from above)

* When comparing the glide between two different blades, there are other factors that come into play; namely, the thickness of the blade and the main rocker radius. For a constant radius of hollow (ROH), the blade will have more bite/less glide as the thickness of the blade increases.  So you need to check the thickness of the blade (which varies more these days than in previous years).  And as the main rocker radius increases, you get more glide.  ETA:  Of course, all this assumes that the sharpening is done properly.  Variations in sharpening can muddy the effects of these factors.

* My Coronation Ace at the time had a thickness of 0.160"; the Eclipse Aurora, 0.150"; my first pair of Paramount (~2018), 0.160"; my current pair of Paramount (late 2022); 0.140" (looks like they've thinned it down to shave materials costs while boosting the price substantially).

* I didn't notice any change in glide when switching from Coronation Ace to Aurora.  But I did notice a substantial increase in glide when transitioning from Aurora to Paramount.  This I attribute to the change in main rocker radius from 7' to 8'.  I judged the increase in glide by the increased speed overall; but, more particularly, in executing my Figure-8's:  instead of barely having enough oomph to complete the circles, I'd complete the circles with speed to spare.

[tstop4me]

I've wondered to what extent my own experiences, which included longer edge lifetime on stainless steel edges, depended on how I took care of them. In particular, maybe if I had really really dried out the the non-stainless blades (with a hair or hand drier??), then oiled them after every use, maybe their edges could have lasted as long as stainless steel edges?

This assumes that difference in edge life of stainless steel over plain carbon steel is due to difference in corrosion.  If you take reasonable care drying your blades, this is not the case.

[mjebos86]

Thank you all for your advice!!

I know a few people who've had problems with quality on MK and JW, and a fitter I spoke to a few months ago said they found the Jackson quality to be much better. Of course they all have their personal preferences.

I'd heard the same thing about quality control issues with MK/JW as well! And on top of that - my tech told me she heard that one reason for the recent long backorders on MK/JW blades was that they were having some fairly major issues with their production equipment. I'd guess that probably doesn't bode well for quality control either...

Stainless steel is more difficult to sharpen than plain carbon steel.  If a tech is telling you that stainless steel has a poorer glide than plain carbon steel, then they probably don't know how to sharpen stainless steel properly.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that! To be honest I'd be surprised if it were the case - my tech does most of the sharpening for competitive skaters at my club, and many of them are in Matrix blades. Still, that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't issues. If I end up deciding to go with the Paramount blades and I find that glide is an issue, I'll try going to a different tech for a sharpening (luckily there are a few great options in my area).

I didn't notice any change in glide when switching from Coronation Ace to Aurora.  But I did notice a substantial increase in glide when transitioning from Aurora to Paramount.  This I attribute to the change in main rocker radius from 7' to 8'.

Also an excellent point. Your observation about figure 8s prompted another realization on my part as well - while I am definitely interested in giving dance a try in the future, a more immediate goal is to take the Adult Pre-Bronze Moves in the Field test sometime in 2024. A blade with the stability and glide of an 8' rocker might be helpful on those consecutive edges!

I'm planning to talk with my group coach tonight to see if they have any thoughts - but I do think I'm leaning toward the Paramount at this point.

[Query]

I've never used Paramount, but like Ultima (including Matrix), they at least have a reputation for being more consistent in the rocker profile than MK and JW. Long before the current crop of problems, many skate techs were routinely compensating for that issue. The good techs presumably do a fairly good job - though I think that means the shape of the blade depends as much on the s skate tech as on the manufacturer - so skaters with different skate techs have different impressions of how MK or JW blades perform.

Both Paramount and Matrix are difficult for some pro shops to sharpen, not just because both use stainless steel, but because the runners are attached to the chassis in such a way that some blade holders can't grab them in a consistent way. But if your tech sharpens a lot of Matrix blades, including a lot of competitive skaters' blades, those things probably aren't a problem for that tech.

It's not like figure skaters aren't inclined to complain. I wonder if HD Sports (MK + JW) management has disconnected itself from feedback. It just makes no sense to me that they are having so many problems. I think they are the biggest high end figure skate blade manufacturer, and they don't come cheap. They ought to have the money and resources to solve their problems quickly, even if they are retooling.

[mjebos86]

I wonder if HD Sports (MK + JW) management has disconnected itself from feedback. It just makes no sense to me that they are having so many problems. I think they are the biggest high end figure skate blade manufacturer, and they don't come cheap. They ought to have the money and resources to solve their problems quickly, even if they are retooling.

I feel like success is the enemy of quality in some cases. I can think of a few examples of manufacturers that used to have reputations for high quality and customer satisfaction, which fell off significantly after growing into more massive corporations. Dell and Toyota both come to mind.

This is anecdotal of course - but my tech said that she's toured the JW/MK factory, and that they specifically pride themselves on using some of the same production equipment and techniques they've been using for many decades. It's an interesting comparison with Paramount, who heavily advertise the fact that they use CNC machining to produce blades with extremely consistent specifications.

[tstop4me]

Good point, I hadn't thought of that! To be honest I'd be surprised if it were the case - my tech does most of the sharpening for competitive skaters at my club, and many of them are in Matrix blades. Still, that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't issues. If I end up deciding to go with the Paramount blades and I find that glide is an issue, I'll try going to a different tech for a sharpening (luckily there are a few great options in my area).

Yes, it's wise to keep an open mind about your tech.  One pro shop near me specializes in figure skates.  It's owned and run by a guy who's an ex-competitive and ex-pro skater and is an experienced coach.  So he knows figure skating.  But I was disappointed with his sharpening because there were excessive chatter marks along the entire length of the blades.  When I complained about them, his response was, "I sharpen blades for the skaters that I coach.  And several of them have competed at nationals."  But that begs the question of whether they would have performed better with better sharpening.  Regardless, I went to a different sharpener (a tech only, not a figure skater himself), who did a much better job.

[Christy]

Yes, it's wise to keep an open mind about your tech.  One pro shop near me specializes in figure skates.  It's owned and run by a guy who's an ex-competitive and ex-pro skater and is an experienced coach.  So he knows figure skating.  But I was disappointed with his sharpening because there were excessive chatter marks along the entire length of the blades.  When I complained about them, his response was, "I sharpen blades for the skaters that I coach.  And several of them have competed at nationals."  But that begs the question of whether they would have performed better with better sharpening.  Regardless, I went to a different sharpener (a tech only, not a figure skater himself), who did a much better job.

This is very true. I went to a sharpener who was very highly recommended by a supposed elite skater and he rounded the backs of the blades!!! Sometimes as skaters we just adapt to the sharpening we're given and only notice a problem when we try a different sharpener (and of course every sharpening wheel is different so that impacts the sharpening too)

[tstop4me]

This is very true. I went to a sharpener who was very highly recommended by a supposed elite skater and he rounded the backs of the blades!!! Sometimes as skaters we just adapt to the sharpening we're given and only notice a problem when we try a different sharpener (and of course every sharpening wheel is different so that impacts the sharpening too)

And then there are the techs who do a great job if you're an elite skater, and a not-so-great job if you're not an elite skater.

[AlbaNY]

Yes, it's wise to keep an open mind about your tech.  One pro shop near me specializes in figure skates.  It's owned and run by a guy who's an ex-competitive and ex-pro skater and is an experienced coach.  So he knows figure skating.  But I was disappointed with his sharpening because there were excessive chatter marks along the entire length of the blades.  When I complained about them, his response was, "I sharpen blades for the skaters that I coach.  And several of them have competed at nationals."  But that begs the question of whether they would have performed better with better sharpening.  Regardless, I went to a different sharpener (a tech only, not a figure skater himself), who did a much better job.

Oof!  Chatter marks are such a basic thing to avoid.  Even the least interested guys at my old rink knew to correct their technique if they saw that. 

Christy, that's
I agree we adapt to what we are used to. 

[Christy]

And then there are the techs who do a great job if you're an elite skater, and a not-so-great job if you're not an elite skater.

Interesting!! and maybe true. From speaking to someone he curved the back of the blades on 3 other pairs of blades around the same timeframe for another "not an elite skater"

[mjebos86]

Update - I have my new skates!

I ended up going with the Paramount CP blade (essentially the carbon steel version of the SP blade I was initially interested in). My tech tried to order the SP for me, but the CP was shipped instead (I think there was a miscommunication, and my tech doesn't typically stock Paramount, so she didn't catch it). She was very apologetic and offered to order the SP for me, but I decided not to wait, as my old skates were getting increasingly uncomfortable and starting to hinder my progress.

A few points of interest:

- When my tech sharpened the CPs, she commented that they seemed a bit harder than average for carbon steel blades - so even though it wouldn't be on the level of a stainless blade, she thinks it's possible I might still get a little more time between sharpenings than I did with my old MK Pros.

- My tech also mentioned that in her emails with Paramount, they described the CP as having a 7' main rocker. I thought that was interesting to note, as Paramount's website doesn't give main rocker radii for their lower-level blades - just the higher-level 12", 17", and 27" stainless blades (and even then, they're not necessarily "given" per se, but implied by the diagrams in their brochure showing the MK/JW profiles they're based on).

- The 12" spin rocker on the CP feels much more round than my old MK Pros ever did, even when they were brand new. I also found this interesting given the mystery surrounding the actual specs of the spin rockers on the MK Pro and the Coronation Ace. Paramount says that per their measurements, the MK Pro has a 12" spin rocker, and the Coronation Ace's is a more subtle compound 12"/27" - but in Bill S's excellent thread on this forum comparing the two, it seemed like this wasn't necessarily the case. After skating on the Paramounts, I feel pretty certain that whatever the MK Pro's specs are, it does not have a 12" spin rocker (or at least, the pair I've had for the last 5 years didn't!).

- The CPs have a bit more glide than my old Pros - which might just be a function of them being brand new. They're sharpened to the same ROH as my old blades (1/2"), so no difference there.

Overall, while it's only been a couple weeks, I'm quite happy with the Paramount blades so far. If my long-term experience with them is as good as my initial impression has been, I could definitely see myself getting another pair in the future - maybe even the stainless ones next time

[tstop4me]

- The CPs have a bit more glide than my old Pros - which might just be a function of them being brand new. They're sharpened to the same ROH as my old blades (1/2"), so no difference there.

If you have a micrometer or caliper, you should check the thickness of the CP vs the Pro.  At a constant ROH, you should get less bite/more glide if the the CP is significantly thinner than the Pro.