Review: Jackson Ultima Apex Supreme Blades

[nicklaszlo]

I purchased Jackson Ultima Apex Supreme blades in size 10 3/4" for $450.  I am writing this review because there is very little information available about these blades.  I have twelve years experience skating.

If you are buying blades like these, you are probably wondering: What extra am I getting for buying these expensive blades instead of a $130 Aspire XP?  The marketing images provided by Jackson Ultima look quite different.  In my opinion, the difference is not very big.

The obvious, objective differences are that an Apex Supreme has more, sharper teeth on its toepicks and it has a solid front plate.  Otherwise, the Apex Supreme is quite similar to other blades.

For comparison, I have worn out Ultima Legacy and MK Pro blades, also size 10 3/4".  Ultima Legacy blades are no longer sold. 

Profile: I have traced all three blades.  The shape of the three blades is quite similar, except that the old ones have been worn away by sharpening.  MK Pro blades have a smaller radius, as advertised.  I think most skaters would have difficulty telling these blade profiles apart if the blades were new.  It would be particularly difficult to tell if you were using normal sized blades instead of the long ones I have.

Blade thickness:  The Apex Supreme and Legacy blades are the same thickness.  The MK Pro blade is very slightly thinner.  This should not make a difference.

Toe pick:  The Apex Supreme toe picks have a smaller angle at the tip than the Ultima Legacy toe picks.  There is one additional pick per blade.  I walked into my local pro shop and felt the new Coronation Ace toe picks on display.  The Apex Supreme toe picks feel much sharper than the Coronation Ace toe picks.  On the ice, the new Apex Supreme toe picks feel different from the used Legacy toe picks.  However, this makes zero difference in my jump performance.  If the toe pick does not slip, it is a perfect toe pick.  There is no improving on that.

Blade height:  The blade is two inches high.  This seems to be the same as all other blades.  Jackson refused to tell me how tall the blades were before I bought them.  Presumably this is because they do not trust their quality control.

Review continues below.

[nicklaszlo]

Blade weight:  One blade was 407 grams.  The other blade was 399 grams.  This is almost nothing compared to the weight of my leg and boots.  I intentionally did not buy a "light weight" blade.  For comparison, the used Legacy blades were 340 grams.  I would estimate that sharpening a blade until it was worn out would not remove more than 60 grams.  The blades are nearly the same weight.  I estimate the solid front plate adds about 50 grams per blade.

Titanium coating:  The titanium coating does not cover the part of the blade you skate on.  It does cover the sides of the upper toe picks.  The coating can be scratched by toe picks. 

Tapered edge:  The tapering is very small.  I do not believe this could make a noticeable difference.

Steel quality:  Jackson refused to tell me what kind of steel they use in the blades.  My expert sharpener said he could tell the steel was better than the steel on rental skates.  He said it sparks differently.

Feel:  The blades feel nice to skate in.  They particularly feel nice skating on backwards edges.

I was happy with my purchase.  I would recommend a cheaper blade for most skaters.  I would strongly recommend a cheaper blade for skaters who are growing quickly.

[nicklaszlo]

Images.

[nicklaszlo]

Questions are welcome.  Sadly, I do not have a micrometer or a hardness tester.

[supersharp]

I would love to see the tracings of the different blades.

[nicklaszlo]

Click on 'tracing.png' to see the tracings.

[Query]

Why did you choose to switch from JW and MK blades to Ultima? What do you like better about them?

I think having a toe pick (or for that matter, the rest of the blade) with very sharp edges may be useful if you sometimes skate on very hard (i.e., cold) ice, such as many hockey players prefer, and/or you have to penetrate through the surface junk of badly maintained ice. Perhaps you skate on ice that is prepared and maintained in an appropriate enough manner that you don't need to care. And perhaps it matters more to very light skaters, like small children.

I doubt you care that the blade sparks differently on your tech's machine.

But a better quality steel might mean that:

(1) Sharpened edges would stay sharp longer, which in turn would mean that the blade would last you longer, and cost you less to maintain.
(2) The blade would be less likely to break.
(3) The blade glides longer and more smoothly on the ice.

Or perhaps a combination of those things. Is it worth the price difference? I don't know.

I am not surprised that the blade shapes are very similar. The difference between types of blade often are on the order of hundredth's of an inch or less.

Many skaters feel that those very small differences do matter, and they are willing to pay substantially more for blades with the appropriate differences. I think differences on the order of thousandths of an inch or less matter to me around the sweet spot - but that is something a really good skate tech - or yourself, if you choose to learn - could choose to modify without sacrificing much steel and blade lifetime.

It isn't clear to me that all skaters benefit from owning a good micrometer, or even good calipers and good tools to measure leveling. The main purpose to owning measuring tools, to a skater, is to check how good a job the skate tech is doing. If you trust your tech, I don't think you should need one.

(OTOH, some skate techs aren't very good..)

[Kaitsu]

I would love to see the tracings of the different blades.

I believe Matrix Supreme and Apex Supreme does has same profile. In attached picture I did compare Matrix Supreme to the Gold Seal profile. Supreme profile is closes to the Gold Seal profile what I have found so far. Here in my country coaches recommends Supreme to alternative to the Gold Seal.

[Query]

Since the Aspire

  https://jacksonultima.com/products/aspire-xp

is advertised with a Chrome finish, it probably is not made from stainless steel.

But the Matrix Supreme

  https://jacksonultima.com/products/matrix-supreme

is advertised at https://jacksonultima.com/pages/bladesproducts says advanced family model Matrix models (including Supremes) are made from AUS8 alloy:

The Matrix Advanced Series blades feature an extremely strong yet lightweight Advanced Aircraft Aluminum chassis with Japanese AUS8 Stainless Steel...

Stainless steel is harder than carbon steel, creating faster glide with enhanced edge control and less frequent sharpening.

(BTW, the statement that stainless steel is harder than carbon steel is not true for all alloys of stainless and carbon steel. Also, AUS is often called a high carbon stainless steel.)

That page does not list the alloy Aspires are made of.

Ultima alloy composition has varied over the years - a long time ago all Matrix runners were advertised as 440 stainless (I don't remember whether the ad said 440C).

I think the rest of that web page along with https://jacksonultima.com/pages/bladesfeatures is the closest Jackson now comes to describing the differences between their blade models.

I haven't done recent checks, but when I did, for most brands and models of figure skating blade, the front of the runner does not vary with nominal length - just the length length of the tail. I have never checked whether the front/back rocker profile tilt or the distance between the front of the mounting plate and the toe pick varies with nominal length. (BTW the 10 3/4" nominal length is not the runner length.)

It is good that you are happy with your current blades.

[AlbaNY]

Whatever type it is made of, Aspire rust less easily than Pattern 99s.  I dry and oil those every time I skate but still have that dark oxidation beginning.  I did not even oil the Aspires.

[supersharp]

Thanks for the comparison, Kaitsu, very interesting.

The Aspire is definitely carbon steel, but Ultima does not like to give out the details.  I agree that it is a blade that resists corrosion better than the JW and MK blades.  It seems about the same to me as the other carbon steel blades in the Ultima line. I think the Ultima Legacy (comes in 7' and 8' versions with the "lite" design) has the same corrosion resistance and is a far superior blade from a skater performance perspective.

I have seen many skaters go from Ultima Mirage to Aspire and then to Legacy/Coronation Ace/MK Pro and most of the skaters struggle with spins on the Aspire.  It seems to be a profile that is difficult to learn spins on, probably because it is pretty flat at the front.  When they move up to the next level of blade, suddenly their spins get more consistent, which leads to them immediately loving the new blades.

I have noticed that at some rinks, everyone's blades seem to rust faster--for example, at some of the week-long camps I have attended, I see skaters that I skate with all year suddenly have rust problems. I have wondered about ice building additives and their effect on corrosion of blades, as well as room temperature and humidity which are obvious factors.  Our rink is cold and the HVAC system is set for a maximum of 40% humidity, although it is far less than than in colder months because the incoming air is cold and dry. 

[nicklaszlo]

Why did you choose to switch from JW and MK blades to Ultima? What do you like better about them?

I have never had John Wilson blades.

The MK Pros were sold to me by a dishonest (or incompetent) vendor.  My main observation about them was that the sharpenable region of the blade was smaller than on the Jackson Ultima blades I checked.

[Kaitsu]

So if I have understood corretly, you did buy used MK blades (before Apex) and they were not in so good conditios as you expected?

Were these Apex blades new or used?

May I ask what do you mean with the sharpenable region. Chrome removal area width?

[nicklaszlo]

So if I have understood corretly, you did buy used MK blades (before Apex) and they were not in so good conditios as you expected?

Were these Apex blades new or used?

May I ask what do you mean with the sharpenable region. Chrome removal area width?

I have never purchased used blades.  The Ultima Legacy and MK Pro blades were measured after I used them for a long time.

The sharpenable region is the part of the blade near the ice that has a different color.

[Kaitsu]

The MK Pros were sold to me by a dishonest (or incompetent) vendor.  My main observation about them was that the sharpenable region of the blade was smaller than on the Jackson Ultima blades I checked.

Was the vendor dishonest (or incompetent) because they did sell you MK blades which has narrower chrome removal than in Jackson Ultima blades?

People often use term "sharpenable region" from the chrome removal, even it does not have so much to with the judgement how much you can sharpen them or if they are already wornout. It´s some kind of visual indication, yes, but it wont tell everything what you should know about the blades. Its common that chrome removal is wider in Ultima´s baldes that in Wilson blades. It does not anyhow mean that you can sharpen Ultimas´s blades more than example Wilson blades. If you would use Sid Broadbent blade wellness gauge to the Ultima´s blades, it would indcate that many brand new Ultima blade models would be already in "wornout" area. Roughly speaking, Ultima´s profiles are many times like wornout Wilson or MK profiles.

I wonder how people whom use "sharpenable region" term judges blades without crome removal? Example Ultima Matrix Elite or Step blades which are polished stainless steel blades without any chrome removal. 

Ps. Steel colour in chrome removal area wont either tell steel hardness, except someone has overheated it and "burned" the steel. Chrome removal colour (darker or lighter) comes mostly from the different corrosion protection methods. Melted wax protector and oil what example Wilson uses colours steel a bit darker that what it would be right after the grinding.

[tstop4me]

People often use term "sharpenable region" from the chrome removal, even it does not have so much to with the judgement how much you can sharpen them or if they are already wornout. It´s some kind of visual indication, yes, but it wont tell everything what you should know about the blades. Its common that chrome removal is wider in Ultima´s baldes that in Wilson blades. It does not anyhow mean that you can sharpen Ultimas´s blades more than example Wilson blades. If you would use Sid Broadbent blade wellness gauge to the Ultima´s blades, it would indcate that many brand new Ultima blade models would be already in "wornout" area. Roughly speaking, Ultima´s profiles are many times like wornout Wilson or MK profiles.

I wonder how people whom use "sharpenable region" term judges blades without crome removal? Example Ultima Matrix Elite or Step blades which are polished stainless steel blades without any chrome removal. 

* The Broadbent gauge specifies that it is calibrated for HD Sports (Wilson and MK) spin rocker profiles.  So it's not applicable for other brand blades (such as Ultima and Eclipse) that have flatter initial spin rockers.

* Does the Matrix blades have polished stainless-steel runners?  I thought the runners had a matte finish, just like the Paramounts.  Anyway, the Eclipse Aurora (manufactured by Step until recently) is a traditional-construction blade fabricated from stainless steel and has a mirror finish.  It has a laser-scribed line demarcating the nominal sharpenable zone.  My tech takes credit for it.  When the Eclipse rep showed him a pre-production model, he remarked that since there was no chrome relief, how would he know the sharpenable zone.  Eclipse added the scribe line in response.  I previously skated on the Aurora.  I've never seen a Step, but photos on their website show a scribe line, though it appears more pronounced than on the Aurora (maybe it's engraved, not laser-scribed?).

* At any rate, finicky figure skaters who are picky with their spin rockers will replace their blades before the sharpenable zone (by which I mean the properly hardened and tempered zone) is exhausted.  But the blades are still usuable for casual skating.

[Kaitsu]

tstop4me,

You are right, Sid´s gauge "acceptance criterion's" are designed for JW and MK blades, but it´s handy tool to see roughly difference between the different blade brands, models and what happens when you sharpen blades. When you have measured enough many blades, you will start to know which are normal touch point lengths for different blades. What was my point is, that people might change from Wilson blades to new Ultima blades because Wilson blades were worn out, but in reality they might get very similar profile even the Ultima blades are new and they have huge "sharpenable zone". I am not sure if people are more worried about steel hardness or blade profile changes. What I see often is that of young skaters buy used Coronation Ace blades, which are worn out. When I mention this, they might come next time with brand new Ultima blades without understanding that they did actually buy blades with almost identical profiles as they had in the worn out Wilson blades.

I haven't kept any Step blades on my hands, so you can be right that there is sharpenable zone marking. However I would not be so sure about it, if hardening ends in to that area. Example in this case, if I have understood correctly, nicklaszlo believes that he can remove more material from Ultima blades than from Wilson blades, because chrome has removed from the wider area. Or maybe I have just understood wrongly.

I would like to investigate how blades are hardened / tempered, but I should sacrifice brand new blades for that study. Unfortunately I am not rich enough to do this study.

I guess I was misleading twice in the Matrix blades. Runners are not polished and it is Legacy which do have at least parallel side´s. Parallel Matrix runners do not have any sharpenable zone markings. Matrix runners with taper machining (milled dovetail shape) do have kind of visible sharpenable zone marking. What I tried to say is that in the parallel Matrix runners you have only plain grind side surfaces without any sharpenable zone marking. Even their steel runner would have same hardness all the way to the aluminum frame, other things will limit the blade lifetime. This you also mentioned and this is the message that I tried to highlight in my previous post and when was referring to Sid´s gauge.

[nicklaszlo]

Was the vendor dishonest (or incompetent) because they did sell you MK blades which has narrower chrome removal than in Jackson Ultima blades?

No, that had nothing to do with it.

[nicklaszlo]

if I have understood correctly, nicklaszlo believes that he can remove more material from Ultima blades than from Wilson blades, because chrome has removed from the wider area. Or maybe I have just understood wrongly.

Somebody told me that in the past. 

Looking at the blades now, I can see that both have been sharpened too many times.  More material has been removed from the Ultima blades than the Wilson blades.  The Ultima blades were used for longer.

I am sure the skill of the sharpener is a very important factor.

[Kaitsu]

It's hard to say how much the hardness of the blade changes over the life of the blade or even when they are new. The natural assumption is that harder is better. However, if I look at the blades I'm sharpening, most are dulled by something other than the effect of the ice. Would a harder blade material improve the situation, probably not.

Personally, I have not given much value to the hardness of the blades, because it is almost impossible to verify it with devices found at home. Sometimes when I am sharpening the blades, it feels like the blade would have harder and softer sections. At some sections the sparks almost disappear and at the same section the grinding friction decreases. Does the problem come from the base material or hardening process, that I cannot know.

In my opinion, the erosion of the blade's spinning profile is a much more negative thing than what happens to the hardness. See https://youtu.be/Kk_9Na_bHEk

In UIltima's Apex and Matrix series blades, which have a taper design, I have noticed that the edges of the blades are much more sensitive to damages than the edges of regular blades. A similar phenomenon could be seen by comparing the blade of an ax and a filleting knife. The thinner blade edge of a filleting knife is more sensitive to the deeper damages than the thicker blade of an ax. In practice, deeper dents means need for greater material removal, which leads to a situation where the blade becomes thinner and thinner due to the dovetail shape.

At least to me, it is unclear how the grinding burrs should be removed from Apex blades that have a coating that is promised to extend the sharpening interval. However, I have seen a few practical examples of how burrs should not be removed. A hard coating is useless if it is ground off when burrs are removed.

[Nate]

Why did you choose to switch from JW and MK blades to Ultima? What do you like better about them?

I think having a toe pick (or for that matter, the rest of the blade) with very sharp edges may be useful if you sometimes skate on very hard (i.e., cold) ice, such as many hockey players prefer, and/or you have to penetrate through the surface junk of badly maintained ice. Perhaps you skate on ice that is prepared and maintained in an appropriate enough manner that you don't need to care. And perhaps it matters more to very light skaters, like small children.

The sharper picks mean that there is less risk of slippage on toe jump take-offs, which is something I noticed immediately when switching from Infinity to Pattern 99.  I have to pick harder and further up on the toe pick, otherwise they are prone to slippage because the pick cluster is duller and the resulting plant isn't as secure.  I had to adjust how I picked into Toe Jumps when I moved to the Pattern 99 because of this.

The slipping can lead to pops, because the skater can actually feel it a LOT, even if it's harder to spot by the coach (because it happens so fast, and may not be so obvious - it's not like it's dragging back 4 inches on the ice).

With the Eclipse Infinity (sharper picks), I don't have to put any effort into picking, I basically just place my blade at the appropriate spot and the blade does that work for me.  My focus is only on jumping up off the pick.  Any time my pick slipped like this, my default compensation on the next attempt was to hammer the blade into the ice harder to force a more secure plant.

Most of the JW/MK blades have this "characteristic," because I think they have a coating over the pick cluster that dulls them out.  The Eclipse Blades do not have this, so the picks are super sharp.  I reckon the Jackson Ultima blades are similar.

It's the one area of the JW/MK blades I wish they would improve, because my MK Pros were similar (which is why I got a Pinnacle instead of going back to the MK Pro when I wanted a fuller rocker at the time I decided to actually work on my spinning).

[Nate]

I believe Matrix Supreme and Apex Supreme does has same profile. In attached picture I did compare Matrix Supreme to the Gold Seal profile. Supreme profile is closes to the Gold Seal profile what I have found so far. Here in my country coaches recommends Supreme to alternative to the Gold Seal.

I think blades modeled after the Gold Seal (Supreme, Pinnacle, etc.) tend to follow the profile much closer (if not outright duplicating it) than those that are modeled after the Pattern 99.  Most blades modeled after the Pattern 99 seem to [largely] replicate the pick cluster, but the rocker profile is closer to that of an Gold Seal - just with less lift angle.