Moving front of blade - advice needed

[Christy]

I recently replaced my blades with the same blade however the sole plate is different / narrower so new holes were drilled in the soles of my Ice Flies,. The new blades are too far to the outside so I need to shift them a bit to the inside, around 3-5mm. The heel section is fine so do I just loosen the heel screws and reposition the front of the blade, or do I need to remove the heel screws please?

[tstop4me]

How many heel screws are installed?  Just the two in the elongated slots, or more?

[Christy]

Just the 2 at the back of the plate. The front 2 holes of the 4 are unused. When the first blade was installed pen marks were drawn to show the edges and the heel section aligns perfectly but the front section is too far to the outside of the boot. Unfortunately the screws in the front section elongated holes are closest to the inside so I'll need to drill new holes to move the blade to the correct location.

I hope that makes sense.

[tstop4me]

Just the 2 at the back of the plate. The front 2 holes of the 4 are unused. When the first blade was installed pen marks were drawn to show the edges and the heel section aligns perfectly but the front section is too far to the outside of the boot. Unfortunately the screws in the front section elongated holes are closest to the inside so I'll need to drill new holes to move the blade to the correct location.

I hope that makes sense.

OK.  But are the two screws in the heel both installed in elongated slots?  Some heel plates have the elongated slots alongside each other (both in front or both in back).  But some heel plates have the elongated slots diagonally opposite (one in front, one in back).

[Christy]

No, none of the slots on the heel section are elongated (they're matrix blades).

[tstop4me]

No, none of the slots on the heel section are elongated (they're matrix blades).

I didn't realize the Matrix blades had no elongated slots in the heel plate.  That doesn't make sense for a temp mount.  You can't simply slide the sole plate in/out along elongated slots if the heel plate doesn't adjust.  That would bend the blade.  You need new holes for the heel plate as well.  Plug the two back ones in current use and drill new holes for the front ones (currently unused).

ETA:  Could you double check?  A Jackson video on Matrix blades (https://jacksonultima.com/products/matrix-supreme) at 0:42 shows the two rear holes on the heel plate are elongated slots.  It would be really wacky not to have two elongated slots on the heel plate as well as the sole plate.

Anyway, if they are not elongated slots, you will need to drill new holes.  If they are elongated slots, remove the screws from the sole plate and loosen the screws in the heel plate.  Then see if there's enough free play for you to pivot the sole plate to the new desired position.  If so, then great.  If not, you need to drill new holes.

[Christy]

That video is from 2016, and looks like my old Matrix blades, however the new blades have a different sole plate which is much narrower. I haven't removed the screws yet so I'm not 100% sure that the holes aren't elongated, but they don't appear to be elongated looking at them.

I definitely need to drill new holes for the front section as the elongated holes are at the extreme point in the wrong position, but it sounds like I'll need to do the same for the heels too.

[tstop4me]

That video is from 2016, and looks like my old Matrix blades, however the new blades have a different sole plate which is much narrower. I haven't removed the screws yet so I'm not 100% sure that the holes aren't elongated, but they don't appear to be elongated looking at them.

I definitely need to drill new holes for the front section as the elongated holes are at the extreme point in the wrong position, but it sounds like I'll need to do the same for the heels too.

I'd appreciate an update when you find out for sure.  If there are no elongated slots in the heel plate, I'd consider that a serious design gaffe.

[Kaitsu]

At least all Matrix blades what I have seen so far has included elongated holes. Attached picture has been taken October 2021. If your blades would not have elongated holes, what I doubt, I would make used holes on blade to be elongated instead of plugging holes in boots and drilling new holes next to each others. Aluminum is very easy material in this means.

Ones I have even made elongated holes to be slightly wider so that I could adjust the blade without drilling new holes. This was in Revolution blades.

If the skate tech has used correct screw types, you should basically see already from the screw heads if the holes are elongated or not.

In these video focus is not sharp on heel plates, but if you take a look carefully, you can see different screw types.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUyeMs-Oyy4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x52rFQP-jiU

[supersharp]

3-5 mm is a lot! You will need to loosen the heel screws and even if they are sliders, you'll probably need to remove at least one screw to get the blade to pivot without being pulled onto an arc, as tstop4me mentioned. If it really needs to move 5mm, all of the front holes will need to be plugged and filled.  Resist the temptation to use a hole that looks close (only off by about 1mm), that distance is enough to put tension on the sole plate and may eventually distort the blade. The Matrix frame is sturdier than a classic blade, but it still makes the most sense to do it right.

I'd mark center back of the blade by running a sharpie line on the back of the sole plate onto the boot sole. When you pivot the blade (hopefully on a hidden slider slot) try to keep this lineup. I find that it words best to pivot the blade by holding onto the heel (because it is the center of the pivot) rather than the toe, just to be sure the toe isn't being pulled into position rather than being rotated with no tension. Probably less of an issue on a Matrix frame but I like blades to be mounted perfectly straight with no tension except a tiny bit pulling the sole plates to the sole. 

I've tested blades for alignment with one screw in the heel and two on the front sole plate...of course I can't recommend it but it saved me having even more wrong holes in the boot.  Be careful and stay very mellow while skating on whatever temporary mounting you use. Good luck!

[Christy]

So, I finally removed the blades today and actually put my old blades back as a temporary measure because I haven't managed to find the Edea plugs for the soles which I'll need to use before I can move the new blades into the correct location. I also wanted to see if the boot could be causing the problem, but it's definitely the new blade location as I had no problems skating on the old blades.

I can confirm that the new Matrix Supreme blades do have a pair of elongated slots in the heel plate and a pair in the front plate too. It just wasn't obvious because of the screws that were used. Once the screws were removed I could check the location of the screws in the elongated slots, and unfortunately I can't just slide them across to move the blade into a position that will work for me.

Based on the measurements I took today the blade needs to move about 2mm further across than the holes in the soles and the elongated slots will allow, so I need to plug the holes first.

[Kaitsu]

I have been using car interior panel clips to plug Edea boots. The problem is to find them with correct diameter. As you have aluminum framed blades, keep in mind possibility to drill new holes to sole plate. Much safer option than drilling new hole right beside the plugged hole.

[tstop4me]

I have been using car interior panel clips to plug Edea boots. The problem is to find them with correct diameter. As you have aluminum framed blades, keep in mind possibility to drill new holes to sole plate. Much safer option than drilling new hole right beside the plugged hole.

What material is the clip made of?  And do you use epoxy with it?

[tstop4me]

So, I finally removed the blades today and actually put my old blades back as a temporary measure because I haven't managed to find the Edea plugs for the soles which I'll need to use before I can move the new blades into the correct location.

Looks like you might have a problem in Canada.  The US Edea distributor sells a bag of 25 plugs for USD $30 (plus shipping and sales tax).  They are also sold at about the same price by other US retailers, including one on Amazon US.  There is a retailer on Amazon Canada, but they want  ~CAD $151 (shipping included); that's ~USD $118, a whopping mark-up.  The Edea website lists the Canadian distributor as

Jerry's Skating World Inc.
265 Hood Rd #4, Markham, ON L3R 4N3, Ontario, Canada
+1 905 477 1172
https://jerryskate.com/
sales@jerryskate.com


They don't list the plugs on their website, but I recommend you contact them.  You might also want to check what the total cost would be if you were to buy from a US retailer.

[tstop4me]

Question for people who have plugged holes in Edea boots.

Edea soles and heels are fabricated from a carbon-fiber composite material.  To plug holes, they supply carbon-fiber plugs.  This obviously provides an optimum match in materials.  But is it essential?  Kaitsu describes his alternative in Reply #11, but cautions against drilling a new hole next to the plugged hole.

I have experience in plugging only leather soles and heels.  I drill out the old holes slightly oversized to accommodate a plug cut from a wooden dowel rod and cement the plug with steel-filled epoxy.  Wooden dowel rods come in a range of diameters from 1/8" to 1/2" in 1/16" increments [the largest plug I've used though is 3/8"].   Depending on the condition of the leather around the hole, I can drill out as large a hole as needed and make a plug of the appropriate diameter; whereas, the Edea plugs come only in one diameter (2.5 mm).

With these wooden plugs and steel-filled epoxy, I've found that I can drill new holes anywhere, including within the plug, at the boundary of the plug, and arbitrarily close to the plug, and install new screws.   Has anyone here used wooden plugs and epoxy on Edea boots?

Note:  With leather soles and heels, some techs use a wooden dowel rod larger in diameter than the hole, and simply use a hammer to pound a wooden plug into the hole.  This is OK if you simply want to fill the hole, and don't plan to drill a new hole in or near the plug and install a new screw.  The plug will come loose either when you drill a new hole in or near the plug, or when you install a new screw.

[tstop4me]

So, I finally removed the blades today and actually put my old blades back as a temporary measure because I haven't managed to find the Edea plugs for the soles which I'll need to use before I can move the new blades into the correct location. I also wanted to see if the boot could be causing the problem, but it's definitely the new blade location as I had no problems skating on the old blades.

I can confirm that the new Matrix Supreme blades do have a pair of elongated slots in the heel plate and a pair in the front plate too. It just wasn't obvious because of the screws that were used. Once the screws were removed I could check the location of the screws in the elongated slots, and unfortunately I can't just slide them across to move the blade into a position that will work for me.

Based on the measurements I took today the blade needs to move about 2mm further across than the holes in the soles and the elongated slots will allow, so I need to plug the holes first.

Thanks for the update.  I'm glad your new Matrix blades have a pair of elongated mounting slots in the heel plate.

[Christy]

Looks like you might have a problem in Canada.  The US Edea distributor sells a bag of 25 plugs for USD $30 (plus shipping and sales tax).  They are also sold at about the same price by other US retailers, including one on Amazon US.  There is a retailer on Amazon Canada, but they want  ~CAD $151 (shipping included); that's ~USD $118, a whopping mark-up.  The Edea website lists the Canadian distributor as

They don't list the plugs on their website, but I recommend you contact them.  You might also want to check what the total cost would be if you were to buy from a US retailer.

Yes, so many things have an insane markup in Canada    If I get them I'll buy them when I'm travelling to the US so I pay a more reasonable price. I'm guessing they're about 25% of the US price in Europe.

[Loops]

Christy- check your PMs!

Before shipping gets factored in, they are about €18 in the EU.  But I only found shops selling them in Estonia and the UK.

Worth looking into as shipping from most places may not be prohibitively expensive, just be mindful of duties getting added on at delivery.

[Kaitsu]

What material is the clip made of?  And do you use epoxy with it?

They are made from plastic. In these rink shank "nails" I have not used glue. They are a bit thicker than screes and therefore I need to drill holes slightly bigger to able to hammer plastic plug in to the holes. Sometimes its difficult to get plug in to the hole and sometimes they even get cut before they are fully in the hole. One reason for this is that its hard clamp boot enough rigidly and sole is quite soft. Its like hammering nail into thin plywood what you hold in one hand when the other hand uses hammer.. If the plywood be against concrete floor, job would be much more easier when you dont have any spring affect. 

If I have used smooth shank plugs, then I have used Gorilla glue. If you dont what I mean with rink shank and  smooth shank, try to Google pictures with search words rink shank nail and  smooth shank nail. My picture from the interior panel clip does have rink shank and Edea´s official plug does have smooth shank.

Edea soles and heels are fabricated from a carbon-fiber composite material.  To plug holes, they supply carbon-fiber plugs.  This obviously provides an optimum match in materials.  But is it essential?

My drill bit has never found carbon form the Edea´s boot soles. They are some synthetic material which smells bad, but with my eyes has not detected any carbon. In the other hand I am not good in chemistry or even in English so that I would know which all materials are classified to be carbon. To me carbon soles looks like these => https://bladesfigureskating.com/2018/07/20/harlick-competitior-figure-skates-sz-3-5a-with-carbon-sole-matrix-legacy-blades/
My expectation is that carbon is not flexible and black material. In my opinion Edeas soles are more close to plastic and rubber than carbon.

Edeas plugs are said to be carbon and I believe that, but I am quite confident that they are not same material as the soles. I believe Edea´s plugs are from carbon from two reasons.

* They are hard, almost like a nails so they are easy to hammer in. What would hope is that they should be rink shank.
* Some skate techs like PBHE uses hard wood dowels as a plug and Barge cement as a glue, but I am a bit worried about wood feature to change its size based on moisture. Brian is anyhow much more skilled skate tech than what I am, so I believe his methods works also. Fact is however that moisture will not affect similarly to carbon plugs as to wooden plugs.

Sometimes I have made plugs even from the watercolor brush shank when I didn't have any other materials available so in my opinion these Edea´s carbon plugs are not mandatory.

I have considered to test tread tap to make threaded holes, nylon screws as plug and Loctite thread sealant to secure that screw will stay on its place.

[Christy]

Christy- check your PMs!

Before shipping gets factored in, they are about €18 in the EU.  But I only found shops selling them in Estonia and the UK.

Worth looking into as shipping from most places may not be prohibitively expensive, just be mindful of duties getting added on at delivery.

Thank You for the PM    I'm checking UK and US prices as i can get them from either fairly easily.

[supersharp]

Another consideration is that part of what you are accomplishing when filling old holes in Edea boots is sealing the inside of the boot--Edea directs you to drill all the way through the sole when mounting. The repair is structural and also keeps any water or air from migrating into the boot through the sole.

My limited understanding is that the Edea upper is made of carbon fiber coated with vinyl for appearance.  The carbon has a resin in it that is heat-formable, so if there are tight spots, the boot can be heated and re-shaped to some extent.  If you over-stretch the warmed boot, the shell can become too thin and can break.  My guess is the vinyl can also get stretched too thin.  I have seen Aura boots (similar construction) where the vinyl has peeled off the shell. 

Kaitsu--Are the Edea soles solid or honeycombed?  I get the sense that there are pockets in the heels, but the front of the sole seems more solid, but I have only had a few pairs of Edea boots to deal with so far.  I like the idea of threading a plug into the holes.  If we had plastic versions of the hi-lo Edea screws, maybe they could simply be screwed in with a thin coat of adhesive to lock them in place?

[tstop4me]

Another consideration is that part of what you are accomplishing when filling old holes in Edea boots is sealing the inside of the boot--Edea directs you to drill all the way through the sole when mounting. The repair is structural and also keeps any water or air from migrating into the boot through the sole.

Interesting you should raise this issue.  The instructions given by the US Edea distributor (https://skatesus.com/product/carbon-filler-plugs/) includes the following closing comment:

"(If there is no hole interference for new hole locations, it is not necessary to fill the unused holes)."

I thought it odd that they aren't concerned with water penetration.

[tstop4me]

My drill bit has never found carbon form the Edea´s boot soles. They are some synthetic material which smells bad, but with my eyes has not detected any carbon. In the other hand I am not good in chemistry or even in English so that I would know which all materials are classified to be carbon. To me carbon soles looks like these => https://bladesfigureskating.com/2018/07/20/harlick-competitior-figure-skates-sz-3-5a-with-carbon-sole-matrix-legacy-blades/
My expectation is that carbon is not flexible and black material. In my opinion Edeas soles are more close to plastic and rubber than carbon.

Thanks for that correction.  Since Edea specifies carbon-fiber composite plugs, I thought that's what the soles are made of.  So maybe the plugs aren't so critical after all.

[Kaitsu]

You need to note that my comments are mainly personal opinions and thoughts which are based to what I have seen and experienced. Maybe there is carbon layer is somewhere and I just haven seen it. Edea´s soles are made leather type synthetic material. Under this layer there is plastic "insole". If you dont drill screw holes all the way to the sole, fat tip HI-LO screws stops to this harder layer under the synthetic leather and screw starts to pull out the softer material. If you just continue tightening the screw, soon you have over sized hole. This same is valid for most of the Risport shoes.

In both brands heels mounting is secured with quite big screws from insole side. Edeas soles as hollowed, kind of honeycombed when Risport soles are made from leather layers, which means that are solid. Honeycomb design save weight, but they increase also risk to break drill in to the hole. It has happened several times to me that my drill has hit also to screw, nail or side of the honeycomb wall inside the Edea heel. They all will break easily 2.5 mm thick drill.

Ones the drill went broken in one of the slotted holes. Broken drill bit was so deep in the heel that I didn't have any changes to pull it out. I was wondering what to do now. I decided to try if that piece of drill what I cannot pull out could work as a nail. I took some nail or similar pin what I used to hammer drill so deep to heel that I can use Edeas screw to push it even deep in to the heel. I though that everything went well when screw was tightening normally and blade mounting was secured. When I everything was ready with that boot, I removed that skate from my blade mounting stand I realized that that drill bit was now inside the honey comb heel and was causing terrible rattling noise. OMG...what do now I thought. They were Edea Ice Fly, so not the cheapest Edea boots and fault was mine. I was thinking that I have three chaises.
1. Buy new boots for this skater and say that I will never-ever mount blades to anyone else boots that mine own.
2. Inject glue trough the screw hole and hope that glue drops in to the piece of drill and holds it on place until boots are replaced with new ones.
3. Drill enough big hole in to the middle of heel and try some magnet fishing or some other method to get that drill bit out from that hole. The problem is that I do not have X-ray eyes so I didn't know if I can get that drill out even I would drill larger hole in to the middle of heel. It could be possible that my hole would be if different cell than where the piece of drill is.

Option 1 was so expensive that I decided that I will try first all other options. Option 2 sounded also a bit risky in long term. What about if my gluing works just some days or couple months? So I ended up to option 3 and finally everything went well. In that moment I was really considering if mounting blades to other people is wort of all those risks. So those whom are paying skate techs from blade mountings, keep in your mind what kind of risks skate techs are taking. Risk has to included in their prices. Imagine how many blades you need to mount if you fail in 500$ boots.

What comes to plugging unused holes to prevent moisture entering to empty screw holes / sole, I would claim that it is important only in boots with leather soles. Personally I really dont like leather soles as leather and moisture is never good combination. Due this they have to be protected with lacquer layer or Snow-Seal and glue has to be used in the screw holes even you would use screw in that hole. Leather is like a sponge which is sucking all water what it just can hold. Synthetic material does not have this issue and this the reason why I like Edea boots.

If "empty" holes would be serious issue in Edea boots, why Edea is making empty holes already at the factory. If you try to google pictures from the Edea boots, You can see that intersection area between the sole and heel has several holes. Often insole has also holes as well as plastic sole under the insole. I have even seen pictures where Edea demonstrates how "steam" comes out from these holes. At lest my understanding is that they are made for air ventilation purposes. Nevertheless I have not plugged holes in Edea boots if that has not been necessary to secure blade mounting. I have to confess that I am lacy to fill holes if I see it unnecessary. I know that many persons here in Europe whom are filling the holes in Edea boots simply with epox. When synthetic sole will not damage from the moisture, cant we see that glue makes perfect copy from the HI-LO screw which has formed "threads" to the sole? You just need to find correct glue type. Perhaps two component plastic metal could work if viscosity is correct.

Recently Edea has started to apply some friction mat between the insole and  brown plastic "insole". Sometimes there has been problems that their insoles start to slip. Attached one example picture from the skates which were given to me for sharpening. Later that sent me message that if I could check what is the wrong in one boot when they daughter complains that she can feel some lump inside the boot and it hurts. It was quite obvious what was the reason.

Some tips to the Edea boots...
* If boot has only size marking on the sole (example 245, ), its last width is C. If it is something else like B, D or E, they will mark it next to the size marking.
* Boots are far from the planar and way too often there is huge cap between the blade and sole
* Check always the backstay seams. In some reason seams in left foot might be tilted quite a lot.

[Query]

Yes, so many things have an insane markup in Canada    If I get them I'll buy them when I'm travelling to the US so I pay a more reasonable price. I'm guessing they're about 25% of the US price in Europe.

Christy- check your PMs!

Before shipping gets factored in, they are about €18 in the EU.  But I only found shops selling them in Estonia and the UK.

Worth looking into as shipping from most places may not be prohibitively expensive, just be mindful of duties getting added on at delivery.

Help me to understand why stuff would be so much more expensive in Canada. Is it mostly a shipping cost issue? - I notice there is no way to get from some parts of rural Canada to another by road - maybe they use small planes to deliver packages in low population areas. Especially since so many people skate in Canada - dealer's ought to be able to get quantity discounts, unless they are in low population areas.

BTW, I think wood is sufficient to seal leather sole holes, and provide something into which to drill an overlapping whole, because they have somewhat similar mechanical properties, and because leather soles are thicker than Edea's soles. In addition, the wood plug forms a strong compressed friction fit against the leather. You wouldn't get anything like that applying new epoxy (possibly + filler) in an already hardened epoxy+fiber composite sole.

Some epoxy literature, like West System Epoxy's literature, suggests that when trying to adhere new epoxy to old hardened epoxy + fiber composites, you should roughen the old surface. The idea is that the new epoxy doesn't adhere well to the old, and for the most part not to the fiber hardly at all, but it can seep into the nooks and crannies of the roughened surface, which act somewhat like miniature dove tail joints after the new epoxy hardens. But that doesn't mean it will form as strong a bond as the original - nor perhaps will your "steel" filler bond to the fibers in the original. So maybe you are creating a weak point of potential failure right around the screw hole?

So, if Edea has worked hard on engineering their sole plugs, for their soles, maybe they really are the best option, if for some reason you do have to use overlapping holes? Is there a good reason, other than cost, not to use them?