Edea screw substitutes

[Query]

BTW, I do usually drill a thin pilot hole in boot soles. Quite apart from splitting the material, and the other things that Supersharp mentioned that I didn't know about, I can't do a good job of placing and aligning the screw without it.

$30 is still a lot to ship 100 screws, but I don't live in Alaska. I hope you get what you want.

[supersharp]

I ordered stainless hi-lo thread screws from McMaster Carr (MMC) and had them delivered to my daughter's house for $10 instead of to my house for $99.  I just got back from visiting her and was finally able to compare them to the Edea screws.  Photo attached.

Screw size--I ordered #6 screws in 1/2" and 3/4" lengths, plus one box of #8x1/2" for holes that are stripped at the #6 size.

Screw length--the Edea is between the two lengths I ordered.  Edea does not use a longer screw in the heels because the heel is hollow (thanks, Katisu, for that clarification).  I use the 3/4" screws on the heels on non-Edea boots.

Relative height of threads--the difference in the size of the high and low threads on the Edea screws is slightly more than on the MMC screws, but my guess is they will have a very similar performance and have the advantage of not rusting.

I'm looking forward to trying these on the newer nylon Jackson soles as well as seeing how well they work on leather.  I will report back once I have a chance to use them...probably closer to July when our rink reopens and the kids all discover they have outgrown their boots...

[Bill_S]

Wonderful!

The Edea must be around a 5/8" length, which is available from McMaster. Screw quality looks like it favors the McMaster-Carr supplied screws, plus they are stainless steel.

Both Edea and the screws stocked by McMaster-Carr appear to have roughly the same thread pitch and thread shape. Looks can deceive, especially being seen as a photo on a web page, but that increases the chance of them being interchangable.

Good research work!

[Query]

If indeed the McMaster-Carr screws aren't quite the same length, possibly you could cut the 3/4" ones to the right length, though that would be a nuisance.

Could the rough surface of Edea screws create significant extra friction, and therefore be good?

I assume you use longer screws for the heel. Or is heel layer separation not the problem for Edea boots that I found it to be for Graf Edmonton Special boots (whose heels were composed of multiple leather layers, glued together, that came apart), when I used screws that didn't quite reach the outsole?

Supersharp, would you actually test for the corrosion resistance and/or strength and durability of Edea vs McMaster-Carr screws, or do you simply trust the latter better?

[supersharp]

Query--I am willing to trust that a stainless screw will hold up better than whatever it is that Edea is providing, but I will also be watching to see if I see any signs of corrosion.

I plan to use the MMC screws on my next few mountings, hoping I will have some leather or LCL soles to try them on.  That is the best test, since it is the actual conditions that I want better performance for.  I'd like to test the screws side-by-side, but the Edea screws would probably need to be shortened for the front soles of some boots. It looks like the Edea screws have some sort of coating or surface treatment, but I have not ground one down to see if that is just the color of the metal.  Assuming it is a protective coating or treatment, it creates a somewhat unfair test for me to grind off part of that coating and then compare it to a stainless screw. 

I have shortened screws before by grinding the tips down, it is kind of a nuisance but it was necessary when the soles were so thin that the pointed end of a 1/2" screw was coming through the sole and stabbing into the insole.  The next shorter screw length seemed too insubstantial to me, so I ground the tip off of the 1/2" screw.  This also had the advantage of having a flat tip so I could use a screw that went in flush to the inside of the boot.  Generally speaking, I don't really want to grind screws to shorten them.  If I really wanted the same length as the Edea screws, I would order the 5/8" length that Bill mentioned. 

What I really wanted from the MMC screws is to be able to try the high-low thread style and see if it performs better than screws with threads that are all the same height.  I expect the MMC screws to perform better in the synthetic soles because that is really what they are designed for.  I'm also expecting that there will be less stripping in leather, but time will tell.  It may turn out that leather strips less easily with standard screws and needs the bite of having all of the threads full width.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens. 

[Query]

In terms of materials, Edea isn't very specific.


https://edeaskates.com/en/ice/why-edea-is-so-special/more-confidence/blade-mounting-screws/

says

"These modern precision engineered screws are made of 100% galvanized steel to protect against the corrosion and rust that are part of the challenge of skates design."


https://edeaskates.com/en/ice/accessories/tech/100-screws-blade-assembly/

says

"The screws are made of lightweight, innovative materials; they screw in fast and do not rust."


Very unspecific. I guess it isn't in a competitive manufacturer's best interests to discuss exactly how they make anything.


I was curious about how steel can be "lightweight". I found technical articles that discussed including aluminum in "lightweight" steel alloys, including some stainless alloys developed in the past several years which are claimed to be stronger and/or more ductile, lighter, and more corrosion resistant than more common stainless steels. But I don't know enough to evaluate them, nor is Edea specific enough in what I found to figure anything out. But well controlled testing, at your rinks and in your climate, would be a major nuisance to do.

I think of steel as an old technology, but apparently there are enough factors to vary that there are still new combinations to try, that are claimed to make significant improvements. I suppose that applies to blades too.

[Kaitsu]

I would say that Edea´s screw does have electroplated zink coating. Electroplate is available in different colors like yellow, blue (which is more close to chrome than blue) and black. Its very common coating method on steel screws.
https://4.imimg.com/data4/LB/JT/ANDROID-40961865/product-250x250.jpeg

I can confirm that Edea screws are not made from any lighter material than steel. Conical head screw weight is 0.96 grams and flat head screw weight is 1.19 grams.
Wilson screw weighs are 0.82g / 1.01g (shorter) and 1.14g / 1.29g (longer). Heavier screw from the same length is always flat head screw.

Weight differences comes more from the physical size than material. We are anyhow talking about so small weights that our foots sweat moisture is increasing more weight than different screw types. Talking about light weight screws is just marketing hype. If weight of the screws sounds important, using women 20 denier nylon socks instead of regular socks is more easier way to reduce same amount of weight.

[supersharp]

I agree with Kaitsu, screw weight is a silly thing to worry about.  Bunga (gel) pads weigh more than all of the screws holding a blade on, and as far as I can tell, skaters seem more concerned about the performance of the Bungas than the weight. 

The obsession with lightweight boots and blades is a misplaced focus, in my opinion.  Skaters doing many multiple rotation jumps daily might have a need for them, but otherwise, there is not really a big value in the lighter equipment.  A heavier boot and blade actually have more stability, and the weight concentrated closer to the interface of the blade with the ice is an advantage. 

I tried lightweight boots at one point--I stopped noticing the difference in weight after about a week and saw no improvements in my skating that were not based on improvements in my technique.  When I went back to standard-weight boots, I stopped noticing the difference in weight in about 2 days.   I also noticed that I had much better support in the heavier boots, but that was likely due mainly to the change in boot manufacturer.

[Nate]

I agree with Kaitsu, screw weight is a silly thing to worry about.  Bunga (gel) pads weigh more than all of the screws holding a blade on, and as far as I can tell, skaters seem more concerned about the performance of the Bungas than the weight. 

The obsession with lightweight boots and blades is a misplaced focus, in my opinion.  Skaters doing many multiple rotation jumps daily might have a need for them, but otherwise, there is not really a big value in the lighter equipment.  A heavier boot and blade actually have more stability, and the weight concentrated closer to the interface of the blade with the ice is an advantage. 

I tried lightweight boots at one point--I stopped noticing the difference in weight after about a week and saw no improvements in my skating that were not based on improvements in my technique.  When I went back to standard-weight boots, I stopped noticing the difference in weight in about 2 days.   I also noticed that I had much better support in the heavier boots, but that was likely due mainly to the change in boot manufacturer.

Lightweight boots help for anything that requires you to lift your leg. Your boots are at the extreme end of them. Camel spins, spirals, sit spins, etc. It can also prevent overuse injuries for people who may end up in a boot thats a bit too heavy for them, as this may overwork some muscles or force them to compensate by using their back more.

They aren't just for jumping, and they are legitimately helpful.

[Query]

I have created a related thread for Graf screws, which look somewhat similar, though AFAICT, they aren't countersink screws.

  https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8755.msg104985#msg104985

Perhaps many modern brands of ultra-light boots, that use thin synthetic outsoles, will also use HiLo blunt end screws.

[Kaitsu]

I did test Edea´s screws in leather sole Riedell boots. Screws were in boots less than 6 months and at least for one month they were not used due the rink summer close season. Point is not to highlight that Edea Hi-Lo screws would be more worst than other Zink plated screws. Similar rusting can be seen in all electroplated screws. In the other words, intention is explain why stainless screws are highly recommended in leather sole boots.

[Bill_S]

I agree with your conclusion - stainless steel screws avoid corrosion better than electro-plated screws. Your photo is good graphic evidence for the reason why.

[marc]

Salut à tous,
je vais posté ici, car je crois que c'est le mieux:
affuter c'st une chose, fixer des lames sur les bottes en est une autre.
J'ai des vis risport, d'autre vis inox vendu avec les lames mais  je ne connais pas la marque.
Je perce avec la bonne meche.
Les vis se dévissent. et ma question:
pourrait on coller les vis avec du frein filet pour mécanique?

Hi all,
I'm going to post here, because I believe it's best:
sharpening is one thing, attaching blades to boots is another.
I have risport screws, other stainless steel screws sold with the blades but I don't know the brand.
I drill with the right bit.
The screws unscrew. and my question:
could we glue the screws with Thread-locking fluid for mechanics ( loctite)?

[Bill_S]

I believe that Loctite is not indicated for materials other than metal-to-metal. I wouldn't use it. Loctite instructions also warn against using it with some plastics because of stress cracks that may develop. It's also brittle.

Try either epoxy or an RTV silicone adhesive in the thread.

With RTV silicone, a dab on the tops of screws and adjacent mounting plate can prevent them from rotating. This inhibits loosening but remains removable with a little work.

I had (well, still have) a pair of skates where I had RTV silicone on the plates and screws for ~10 years without any screws coming loose. For my own skates, this is what I'll use again.

[marc]

bill's
pourrais tu être plus précis sur silicone rtv car je m'y perds et il y a pas beaucoup de références en France!

could you be more specific on silicone rtv because I get lost and there are not many references in France!

[Bill_S]

Here are some silicone glues that I have used in the past...

[tstop4me]

The screws unscrew. and my question:
could we glue the screws with Thread-locking fluid for mechanics ( loctite)?

I concur with Bill, no to Loctite:  it's brittle.  I use rubber and gasket adhesive.  There are many varieties; for this application, the choice is not too critical.  Here's one I use:  https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40069393/.  This adhesive stays flexible and tacky, allowing you to continue torquing down the screws in stages; e.g., when you're mounting a new blade to a new boot and need to tighten screws further after successive skating sessions.

This adhesive uses volatile organic compound solvents.  To use, apply the adhesive to the screw threads and the bottom of the screw head.  Let dry for about a minute or so.  Then install the screw.  This way, little solvent gets absorbed into the sole and heel of the boot.

[Query]

I really like the idea of using some type of thread lock for screws in leather soles. I hate the fact that you need to keep retightening - and that you always have to be careful not to use too much torque, or you strip the hole. It's a great idea.

Try either epoxy or an RTV silicone adhesive in the thread.

Have you tried either solution with leather soles? How well did it work?

Are there removable/easily breakable epoxies?

If you want to keep your boots but replace the blades, or vice versa, you need to be able to remove or break the glue. That sort of thing is why most thread locking glues aren't very strong. I think the epoxies I have played with, might form too strong a bond, though I admit I never use them with leather.

However, I've never tried applying heat to epoxy. Would that make it soft enough to remove if you had to, at a low enough temperature that a leather sole wouldn't be damaged?

Other possibilities, untested by me:

1. Use a (compressible) washer. The idea is to put continuous pressure on the screw, even if you get thermal expansion and contraction, or shock, so it can't slip as easily. I used to know an electrician who often used this technique so screw terminals wouldn't slip as much. (Incidentally there are screws with integral washers - I think they are called SEMS screws.)

2. After tightening a screw, wait 24 hours, and re-tighten. I don't fully understand why it helps, but it sometimes does. I got this idea from the electrician too.

3. Use a screw with a self-lockjng thread. I'm not quite sure how or if they work in boot sole materials. I've never used such a screw. I've only seen ads, and wondered if they were hype.

4. I wonder if you could use a glue gun. As long as the melting point was substantially below the temperature at which the sole would be damaged, you could break the bond if you had to by applying heat. Plus, the glue gun glues I have personally seen weren't very strong, so maybe you could break the bond if you had to without heat. 

[Kaitsu]

I have been using Gorilla glue, but I am not fully satisfied for that. Its better than nothing but definitely not the most optimal glue for this purpose. The main issue in most of the glues what I have tried is that they do not absorb to leather and do not make drilled holes water tight. Moisture is that what causes all troubles in leather sole. Edea´s soles are not suffering from this issue.

Leather soles are like plastic bag where you drill hole and then you try to get it water tight with screw. After the skating there is always some water between the sole plate and sole what you cannot wiped away. That moisture will enter to screw holes capillary. When leather gets wet, it comes soft. When skates are used, soft leather will deform and hole is getting bigger and bigger which means water has even better access to screw holes. When there is tiny clearance, screws starts to condensate water and things are going all the time worst direction.

Therefore I do not believe that screws with any locking method would solve loosening issue. I do not either believe that thread locking glues would lock the screws to leather soles. This even I have lately used thread locking glue. The idea behind my test is that thread locking glues has low viscosity and their function is based to capillary. I want to see if thread locking glue would absorbed to leather making them watertight. I do not have high hope related to regular thread locking glues as they are not very elastic after drying. Perhaps Loctite 5400 thread sealant could be the better, but I believe it would be also too brittle. Therefore I am quite confident that silicon or silicon type of (RTV) gasket sealants works best, just like Bill recommended.

Using silicon would be be way too easy, so I think I will drive right a way to local shop to buy Permatex  Form-A gasket sealant and I try how that works. Lets see what  mess I cause for nice white boots with that sealant    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHEcf0itBuE

[supersharp]

For leather soles, once the blades lie flat enough to the sole that I am not having to create shims (or if I needed to sand any part of the sole down, I would have done it first, plus I would have identified the location for the four temporary mounting screws and would drill them in advance.  I use SnoSeal for the next step.  It seems better than any other product I have found because it contains more beeswax.  Or some other kind of magic.  There is also a family connection to the SnoSeal brand, but I will not go into that here...

I start by applying SnoSeal with a heat gun until the leather has saturated.  The leather usually gets considerably darker, but to me it looks nice (not so dry and thirsty).  The heated sole will soak up the SnoSeal for quite awhile--I treat one sole, then the other, and go back and forth until I feel like they are done (probably at least 10 times, sometimes more). The last coat of SnoSeal should be applied so it does not all soak in but leaves a little film on the surface.  This can be polished with a soft cloth to act as a finish coat.  Then I spread a layer of SnoSeal on the soles where the sole plates are going to sit, but leaving a 5mm-ish circle around the screw holes so I can insert the screws without coating them with SnoSeal.  I line the blades up and tighten the screws.  SnoSeal will be squished out around the edges and at the center of the blade (unless they have solid sole plates), as well as out of the other screw holes.  This is a good sign that there is a nice layer of SnoSeal between the sole plate and the sole.  I wipe off the excess but I leave a little in each of the empty screw holes to keep water out.

After any adjustments have been made to the mounting alignment, I remove the SnoSeal from the holes that will get additional screws and add screws. If the skates are for an adult, I have them test the alignment and usually will get back to gluing the screws on the next sharpening.
If the skates are for a kid (sorry, kids, no slight intended, but your feet are growing and you don't usually have orthotics in your skates, so there is a little more wiggle room for your foot to find the right place in the boot), I go ahead an glue the screws in at this point.

I have had better luck with a bit of clear epoxy on the screws than with silicone, but perhaps I used the wrong kind of silicone.  Standard 5-min epoxy will adhere the screw to the leather enough that the screws have a tendency to stay put.  It does not take a tremendous amount of effort to unscrew them if you need to--and there has never been leather stuck all over the screws.  At first, I was really careful not to get any epoxy on the sole plates and to try to have the application of epoxy be invisible.  Over time, I have discovered that it is more useful (and works better) to put a little bit of epoxy under the screw head and let it be slightly visible that it is there.  Mainly it is a reminder to me as to whether I have or have not yet applied this epoxy. 

If the SnoSeal is renewed periodically, I have had boots last for years without any water damage to the leather soles.  Until I started adding SnoSeal under the sole plates, I used to see black growth there when I would replace blades, but I also was doing less adjustment (shimming or sanding) at that time, so the sole plates did not lay as flat on the sole. 

All that being said, I live in a cold climate with a cold rink.  There is no need to worry about skates getting hot and having the SnoSeal melt and ooze out from under the soles.  I think if I was in a hotter climate or if we skated at a mall rink instead of in a barely heated building, I may want to try other options.

I have seen soles attached with silicone and have tried it as well.  It should not be applied until the blade alignment is permanent because you will not be able to slide the blade sideways once the silicone cures.  It is great in that the blade is solidly attached, but it is not something you want to  try to undo very often.  It can be used to help fill small gaps, though, and I have considered putting the silicon on the sole plate and then covering it with plastic film, then attaching it to the blade.  This would allow it to form a shim that would seal the gap between the boot and blade but would still be simple to remove and you could also slide the blade over a tiny amount if needed for some reason. 

I also tried sealing the edges of the sole plates with silicone in an attempt to keep water from getting under the sole plates.  It just peels off.  It seems to work fine in locations where it is compressed between two surfaces.  Again, maybe I was using the wrong product.

Has anyone tried putting a bead of silicone around the sole plates with success (meaning that it is still in place months later)?

[Bill_S]

I haven't tried using silicone seal after the blades have been mounted to seal the blade mount edges. I suspect adhesion problems will occur.

When mounting blades, I usually Sno Seal first, mount the blade temporarily w/o silicone sealant for adjustment. After lateral adjustment is established, I then apply a thick layer of RTV silicone (silicone sealant) onto the blade mounting plate for the permanent mount. This photo is from the first time I used it, and I put on more than I needed...



The excess squeezes out when tightening screws...



I remove the excess, then smooth it with a damp finger around the edges and over holes, but the sealant tucked deeper in holes remains there to prevent water penetration. The sealant is paper-thin under the blade mount as most of it is squeezed out around the edges and through mounting holes.

Here is the same boot/blade after a couple of years skating on it. The silicone chamfer around the edge is still intact in this photo, but it will eventually break away - especially where it was spread thin across the sole. I suspect that the Sno Seal reduces its adhesion to leather. I didn't try to replace it because the remaining thin "gasket" layer between blade mount and boot greatly inhibits water by itself, fortified by occasional applications of Sno Seal.



I skated on these from 2007 to 2019 after which I wanted to change blades to experiment. After I removed the original Coronation Aces, I mounted the following for experiments...

1. Another new pair of Aces
2. MK Pros
3. Jackson synchro blades
4. Eclipse dance blades
5. Gold Seals
6. Pattern 99s

The bottom of the boot looks like swiss-cheese after all the mounting holes, but still has structural integrity.

[supersharp]

Thanks, Bill! 

It's pretty clear that your silicone adheres better than mine did.  I will have to look for the 3M 847 and give it a try. 

[tstop4me]

Thanks, Bill! 

It's pretty clear that your silicone adheres better than mine did.  I will have to look for the 3M 847 and give it a try.

I think you got Bill's post mixed up with mine.  My post linked to 3M 847.  It is not a silicone-based glue.  It is an industrial rubber cement.

It's also not a compound to be used as a filler under the mounting plates as Bill does with silicone. 

If you have leather soles and heels, you can apply the cement directly into the holes if you wish for extra adhesion.  If you have synthetic soles and heels, however, I would first test the cement for undue attack (from the solvents) before applying it directly to holes.  Otherwise, applying the cement to the screw itself and letting the solvents evaporate before installation (as I described above) still works fairly well.   

[marc]

Merci pour vos réponses à tous car je pensais qu'on allé me prendre pour un fou!
bill's: en France j'ai du mal à trouver tes produits.
tstop4me: merci pour ton conseil de colle, car je pense que c'est cela qu'il me faut pour resserer petit à petit les nouvelles lames sur des nouvelles chaussures (wifa).
J'ai eu du mal aussi à le trouver, mais je l'ai commandé et il me tarde de l'essayer!!

Thank you for your answers to all because I thought that one went to take me for a madman!
bill's: in France I have trouble finding your products.
tstop4me: thank you for your glue advice, because I think that's what I need to gradually tighten the new blades on new shoes (wifa).
I also had trouble finding it, but I ordered it and I can't wait to try it!!

[Kaitsu]

I did forget to mention that I haven't mount blades for years to boots which would not have any protective layer on sole. As the boots what I dealing does have all some kind of protective layer already from the factory, I do not need to make similar snow-seal treatment as you are doing. So I am looking some solution to seal holes what I need to make when I mount blades. Its however true that If I could remove all gaps between sole plate and boot sole, water does not have any hiding places. Even the boot soles would have protective layer, there is humidity and bacteria grow or something similar under the blade.