A way to center a sharpening machine on the blade

[AlbaNY]

Bill, I could be wrong but think it is freehand?  He touched something on the farther side of the wheel before beginning that I expected was to adjust the hollow?
This reminds me of a professor I had at FIT with decades of experience drafting and draping.  She would mark lines and distances free hand and when anyone dared challenge her about it a ruler always proved her accuracy.  After working at a deli a couple of months I could very accurately sense what weight was in my hand, but I still wouldn't be up to trying this sharpening task.   
Anyway, all of this is why I am so interested in comparing my blades, as you know. 

Tstopforme, ah, that does make me feel better that I felt like I couldn't quite tell.  At some point in the next few months I'll see the person I purchased the blades from back in NY and see if she can measure the hollow. 

[Query]

If you look at this somewhat old picture

  https://www.alamy.com/bisschop-christoffel-skate-sharpener-dutch-school-19th-century-image376493329.html

You can see a person setting the ROH of a (foot powered??) bench grinder by bending a piece of metal (I think). It all depends on the skill of the user.

If he can do that, perhaps you can use that sharpening machine to get good results.

[AlbaNY]

If you look at this somewhat old picture

  https://www.alamy.com/bisschop-christoffel-skate-sharpener-dutch-school-19th-century-image376493329.html

You can see a person setting the ROH of a (foot powered??) bench grinder by bending a piece of metal (I think). It all depends on the skill of the user.

If he can do that, perhaps you can use that sharpening machine to get good results.

That's a neat painting! 

[Kaitsu]

Albany,
Do you own copyrights of the pictures you shared from the skate sharpening? If yes, I would like ask your permission to use them in my training materials. If you want that you name or nickname is mentioned as copyright owner, you can send me personal message.

I tested also 5 Cent and 1 Euro coins to one of my test blades. As tstop4me already mentioned, third or fourth hand is useful. I was using both hands, tripod to hold camera and bench wise to hold the blade. Bright back light is also needed, just like tstop4me mentioned. I made short video to be kind of extension to tstop4me excellent advice's. https://youtu.be/uSOp4DgGuFg

[supersharp]

I agree that the only way to really see this is to have the skate stabilized and to have a good light behind it, and practice helps.  The thinner gauges are much easier to use, as Kaitsu explains. My first set of ROH gauges were about the thickness of a skate blade, but precision cut.  When they had a good fit to the hollow, you could could feel how solidly they fit in place, which is also somewhat possible with a coin. 

Alba--If you can find a coin to match your current ROH size, then you will know what to tell your skate tech when you are back in NY. I recommend as new of a coin as you can get--maybe ask at the bank or store for a very new coin of the size you need?  Of course, they can make a pretty good guess by seeing what the ROH is when you bring the skates in, but when the edges are worn, there is a range of possibilities for the original ROH.

I would love to be able to put a precision square on those edges after the freehand sharpening...but I bet he does no worse than a good percentage of the shops that don't bother to adjust their equipment or check edges for levelness.  Our rink produces consistently unlevel edges, in spite of having equipment that is completely capable of producing a nice product. 

[AlbaNY]

I have an update!   

This morning I traced the blades.  (The darned pencil I bought the other day was defective, so I had to get another yesterday.)  Using a pencil worked so well and was so easy!  I'm annoyed with myself for not doing that in the first place and a while ago. 

I have to have Husband do the scans since the scanner uses a cable to his computer and doesn't work with my iPad, but I lined up the papers and held them up to the light. 
They matched up perfectly! 
One day I'd like to compare to a new set of the same blades since they were sharpened several times, but as they are they match each other quite exactly.  I'm impressed!

I got use to the sharpening very well yesterday and enjoyed the improvement to edges. 

Kaitsu, I'll message you. 

[Query]

I would love to be able to put a precision square on those edges after the freehand sharpening...but I bet he does no worse than a good percentage of the shops that don't bother to adjust their equipment or check edges for levelness.  Our rink produces consistently unlevel edges, in spite of having equipment that is completely capable of producing a nice product.

Do you think they don't know how to make them level? Or that they just don't take the time, or don't care.

The rink's continued poor result gives you a cool side business, sharpening skates. But if you charged your sharpening clients for your time, at coach rates, you might be an expensive skate sharpener. I hope your customers appreciate the careful job you do.

[supersharp]

Do you think they don't know how to make them level? Or that they just don't take the time, or don't care.

The rink's continued poor result gives you a cool side business, sharpening skates. But if you charged your sharpening clients for your time, at coach rates, you might be an expensive skate sharpener. I hope your customers appreciate the careful job you do.

My understanding is that the person that sharpens figure skates was trained to do it a certain way, something along the lines of centering the wheel in the hollow, 8 passes through the machine, make sure the edges feel sharp along the whole length, more passes if one edge is still dull. I don't think he checks the edges for squareness except maybe by eye.  If the edges are off-level, they will not get corrected, and the more times in a row that the rink sharpens the same skates, the more off-level the edges become...as shown in the attached photos (Jackson Artiste with Mark II blade)...which makes me think that they weren't even checked by eye.  The back of this blade is off level by about 10 degrees, so the difference in edge angle between inside and outside is going to feel terrible. It was also off level in the other direction at the front, by about 5 degrees, so there was one point about 1/3 of the way from the toe pick that was actually level. I sharpened these skates and corrected them to level, and then the skater's coach called me to see "what I had done to the skates" because the student was struggling at her next lesson.  I sent the photos to the coach and she agreed that the skater needs to adjust herself to the new sharpening, and that it explained some of the strange tendencies this student had developed [which always makes me think...why did you not ask me to look at these awhile ago?].  Lots of things slipped through the cracks during 2020-2021, though.

I used to direct the skaters with lower-level blades to just have them sharpened at the rink (anything with a recreational shape, toe pick pointing more forward than down) because it is less expensive and at that level, I thought it probably didn't make a big difference to have a less smooth surface finish.  This was beneficial for both me and the rink, because I tend to be really busy all the time, and the rink can sharpen on any day.  The rink does recommend that anyone with higher quality figure skating blades check with me about sharpening.  They don't want to risk ruining expensive blades, which is smart.  My understanding is also that their sharpening of hockey skates is fine.  The coarser stone is less of a problem on the stainless blades. 

Anymore, I feel like it is a disservice to anyone that wants to learn to skate (beyond just skating around occasionally for fun) to let them struggle with unlevel edges, so I am stuck sharpening the low-level skates when parents request it.  Stuck in the sense that my conscience will not allow me to say no.  I do always let them know that the rink is less expensive, but that my sharpening will be level and smoother because I have different equipment.

As far as appreciating it...my guess is that 90% of the kids just think that this is what skates are supposed to feel like (I agree!).  Centered blades, micro-adjusted for alignment if necessary, level edges, smooth finish.  They also think it is normal for the skate tech to magically repair terrible things that have happened to their skates (eyelets torn out, dog chewing, and so on). When they leave and get them sharpened elsewhere, some of them start to understand that this isn't something you can just count on finding anywhere.  The adults have a much better sense of what level of care their skates are getting and are generally pretty appreciative. 

[Query]

Thanks for your detailed response!

>8 passes through the machine

I take it he isn't amenable to your suggestions. A few techs start out ignorant, but listen and learn. Sounds like he learned something once, and stopped.

The coarser stone is less of a problem on the stainless blades.

You mean that a coarse stone yields an adequate edge and finish on stainless steel? If so, are you talking high carbon stainless, like many high end blades use, or the soft junk some of the really cheap blades use?

Anymore, I feel like it is a disservice to anyone that wants to learn to skate (beyond just skating around occasionally for fun) to let them struggle with unlevel edges, so I am stuck sharpening the low-level skates when parents request it...  Stuck in the sense that my conscience will not allow me to say no.

Think of it as a charity.

A cheap sharpener who removes too much metal is a false economy, even with cheap blades. You may also save them from injury. Wouldn't it be great if even one time skaters got reasonably well sharpened blades, and help doing a boot quick check for fit, proper lacing, and balance? I think a lot of would-be skaters give up and/or get hurt because of equipment problems, or because they don't know how to lace.

It's great that you care! Perhaps you can give them a business card that mentions you coach too, and your engineering services.

[Kaitsu]

And, at least on the sharpening machines with dressing systems that I personally have seen, the scales were marked in fractional inches. But I think I once saw someone specify Rocker radius in metric units, so maybe I'm wrong.

Just for example...meant for those whom are using metric units.
https://blademaster.com/web/en/replacement-quills/535-tsm680n.html
https://parduc.com/688-medium_default/timanttitappi-05-x-6-irtok%C3%A4rjell%C3%A4-wissota-yhteensopiva-tarvikevaraosa.jpg (Wissota)
https://www.kiekkotarvike.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ssm-2_finnish_manual.pdf (page 9)

[marc]

with my blademaster, I even measure with a caliper for the length of the diamond, because with the diamond marks it is not even very precise.
At the moment I am using 5 euro cents (half hollow), 2 euro cents (3/4 hollow) and 14 mm washer (full hollow for my daughter)

[Kaitsu]

In some post Query mentioned that measuring tools are just for beginners and professional sharpeners does not need them. I found video from the guy whom must be most advanced figure skate tech, as he can do even the sharpening just by free hand using "Dremel". Unfortunately he is not probably able to write in English, so that he could share his knowledge in this forum for all beginners whom still need to use measuring tools to ensure edges evenness's. https://youtu.be/oJO9LpTFyWw

Note that he also managed to sharpen one skate in less than 2 minutes. Its very close to 5 minutes per pair of skates what Query keeps enough to make professional sharpening s.

There was also another video where you can see competitor for Pro-filer => https://youtu.be/4bbk2g5if30

[Query]

In some post Query mentioned that measuring tools are just for beginners and professional sharpeners does not need them.

That's going a bit further than I actually meant.

I think even most of the experts sometimes use measuring tools.

E.g., if someone brings them skates they haven't seen before, they likely measure ROH in some way. And they might sometimes measure squareness, or something equivalent. They also likely use the radius measurement built into the dresser quill.

But they don't need measuring tools all the time. Just some of the time.

The two videos you shared may not produce exactly what most figure skaters want. They both seem to be using fairly coarse grinding media, which might not produce the cleanest edges - though I am only guessing that.

The first video technique looks a bit dangerous to me. You could hurt yourself if you slip, and you can't tell if the guy used eye protection. But maybe it doesn't seem that way to people who have more experience using power tools?

I can't tell whether the second video technique can produce a hollow of the same circular cross sectional shape most of us are used to. Also, I'm not clear that he can adjust the gap size - it may only work with some skate thicknesses, and the tool was only applied to a hockey blade, which are thinner. It might even be a home made tool, and not available to the public. In addition, the problem that tstop4me has frequently pointed out with the Pro-Filer, that it may not work well on some blades because of side honing, or because there isn't enough space above the edges for the parallel gap elements to fit against the blade, would likely apply to that tool too.

There have been many hand skate sharpening tools. I've only tried a few. Some were absolute junk. Some of them looked like they could work, but were not well enough made to produce consistent results.

The only ones I tried that seemed to be made well are the Pro-Filer and the Berghman tools. But I haven't tried all the tools.

I've seen hand tools that looked pretty good on videos (including one that I think was sued out of existence for patent violation by Edge Specialties), but were specific to hockey skates.

I usually sharpen my blades in a few minutes using a Pro-Filer - but that is because I usually keep them pretty sharp, so there isn't much material to remove. I often don't even need the coarse stone. And most of the time, I remove so little material, that I don't need to re-measure anything. Plus the Pro-Filer has ROH built in. Plus, I can feel if I did something wrong when I skate on them, which is a different kind of measurement.

[tstop4me]

I found video from the guy whom must be most advanced figure skate tech, as he can do even the sharpening just by free hand using "Dremel". Unfortunately he is not probably able to write in English, so that he could share his knowledge in this forum for all beginners whom still need to use measuring tools to ensure edges evenness's. https://youtu.be/oJO9LpTFyWw

That video places a whole new spin on the old phrase, "Rule of Thumb".   

[Query]

Do you folks who use power tools more than me feel you could safely do what that guy did?

Using a round grinding ball is quite clever. I've thought of trying to do it with a grinding disk, but using a ball means that alignment isn't quite as critical as with a disk.

I think it would be a little easier (and safer) if you taped the Dremel tool (or equivalent) to a small square, one arm of which would slide along the blade, rather than using a thumb. That would also (I think) let you center the hollow on the blade a more consistently. Aside from the fact that the tool would thereby be dedicated to this one task, for this one blade (both blades, if they are the same thickness), and the fact that the centering operation would (at least for me) take a lot more time than it did in his video, what do you think of that idea? Could you make it, or some variation on the theme, work well?

[marc]

Good morning all,
I just posted about edea screws, but the talk will be longer here.
despite my abscence on skatingforums, I do not fail to follow you.
I am certainly the only French here and proud to be there.
Since May, my daughter has made a French championship final where she finished 10th but had the ability to finish on the podium (first place was impossible!)
Every time I follow her, I visit the sharpening workshop (7/8...10 workshops) and they welcome me very well because they are interested in sharpeners!
And what sharpeners!!?? very nice people but totally incompetent.
In France we have a very, very big problem with sharpening.
Already to the question, how much time do you spend there: 5 minutes per skate!!!!
And they also answer me: don't break your head for that or for children!!!
Well if, precisely:
I like to sharpen it so we do it as best as possible.
our ice rink only opens in October and I calculate to improve my centering:
Still with my blademaster, I improved the setting with a home-made skate holder! (like wissota), I check with a precision square, I fixed a comparator (magnet), I improved the sliding of the skate holder with talc (advice from a French hockey team sharpener), a light above the sharpener... and I check the curve with the pbhe template.
often, I don't quite manage to center the first shot and I correct until I get the right result.
I tried to communicate, to discuss sharpening, with Jean pierre riopel, jake brunott, sharpener of great champions, but I have not had any answers to date.
I thank you all again for all that you teach me.

Bonjour à tous,
je viens de publier sur les vis edea, mais le discours sera plus long ici.
malgrès mon abscence sur skatingforums, je ne manque pas de vous suivre.
Je suis très certainement le seul français ici et fier d'y être.
Depuis le mois de mai, ma fille a fait une finale de championnat de france où elle a fini 10 eme mais avait les capacité de finir sur le podium.(la première place était impossible!)
A chaque fois que  je la suis, je visite l'atelier affutage (7/8...10 ateliers) et on me reçoit très bien car on s'intéresse aux affuteurs!
Et quels affuteurs!!?? des gens très gentils mais totalement incompétent.
En france nous avons un très très gros problème d'affutage.
Déjà à la question, combien y passez vous de temps: 5 mn par patins!!!!
Et on me réponds aussi: faut pas se casser la tête pour çà ou pour  des enfants!!!
Et bien si, justement:
çà me plait d'affuter du coup on le fait le mieux possible.
notre patinoire ouvre que en octobre et je calcule pour m'améliorer le centrage :
Toujours avec ma blademaster, j'ai amélioré  le réglage avec un  porte patin fait maison!( comme wissota), je vérifie avec une équerre de précision, j'ai fixé un comparateur(aimant),  j'ai améliorer  la glisse du porte patin avec du talc ( conseil d'un affuteur de l'équipe de france de hockey),  une lumière au dessus de l'affuteuse... et je vérifie la courbe  avec le gabarit pbhe.
souvent, je n'arrive pas tout à fait à centrer au premier coup et je rectifie jusqu'au bon résultat.
J'ai essayé de communiquer, pour échanger sur l'affutage,  avec Jean pierre riopel,  jake brunott, affuteur de grand champions , mais j'ai pas eu de réponses à ce jour.
je vous remercie tous encore pour tout ce que vous m'avez appris et m'apprenez.

[Bill_S]

Good for you for maintaining high standards for your own sharpening and rejecting the mediocrity seen elsewhere! Also, great job on the skate holder. It looks well-made.

I have a question about the dial indicator mounted on the magnetic stand that is seen on top of the sharpener. Do you use that to level your skate holder left and right, or to set an approximate center of the blade on the wheel, or both? I suspect that something like that, cleverly used, might provide better setup without as much trial-and-error experimentation.

[marc]

Think you bill's.
I do as Kaitsu taught me:
learned to have marked with the black pen the partie to sharpen, I make a mark with the grinding wheel, and when I found the center with the mark of in front or behind I regulate my comparator and that I report all along the skate
(and not on the skate holder because all that would be far too easy)
And from one skate to another, even of the same pair, it's different: the sharpening of the skates is made only of adjustments and adjustments.
I have been doing 3 pairs with the comparator and the new skate holder and I am gaining in quality and if it can help anyone other than me to progress, so much the better
I hope you will understand with the translation

je fais comme kaitsu m'a appris:
aprés avoir marqué au stylo noir la partie à aiguiser, je fais une  marque avec la meule, et quand j'ai trouvé le centre avec la marque de devant ou de derriere je règle mon comparateur et que je reporte tout le long du patin
(et non sur le porte patin car tout çà serait bien trop facile )
Et d'un patin à l'autre même d'une même paire c'est différent: l'affutage des patins est fait que de réglages et de réglages.

[Kaitsu]

I have tested similar setup with my sharpening machine. I did have two different targets for using dial gauge.

I wanted to have some scale to my height adjustment knobs. It didn't work. In my machine skate holder is moving along the linear guide rails which are equipped with ball bearings.  I cannot lock skate holder to certain position in the same way as in table top machines where skate holder stays rigidly in same position as long you move it. As blade in not probably never laying 100 parallel compared to any guide rails, even the smallest change in skate holder position changes also dial gauge reading. This lead to situation where I do not know if the dial gauge reading was changing because I could not hold skate holder in same position or from my height adjustment.

I though also that dial gauge could be used to check blade straightness and level the blade in to my machine. Ones again blade straightness deviations, thickness variations and parallelism issues crushed the nice idea. Even I could use dial gauge to get chromed area be nicely level in longitudinal and transversal direction, it does not mean that grid edges would be in level. This because the chrome removal grinding in not necessary in the middle of chromed area.
I have already given-up in means of having some dial gauge system to ensure even edges, but I am still hoping to find some solution to get scales for my height adjustment. If I would have tripod type of skate holder, arranging the scales for height adjustment would be much more easier.

Marc, I am not sure how stable your machine is from vibration point of view. In my machine I have noted that even the very small things will affect to surface finish. This probably because guide rods starts to resonate quite easily. Also weight and stability of skate holder will affect. My main concern in your own design is that how well it absorbs vibrations...or does it increase vibrations. I do not claim that your skate holders isn't good. I just want you to pay attention also to rigidity of the skate holder.

Attached blade thickness variation from one blade what I have measured.

[supersharp]

The thickness variations on that Coronation Ace blade are crazy!

I measured my new, unmounted SkateScience synchro blades awhile ago out of curiosity, just along what will be the sharpened edge.  They were very consistent down the entire length of both blades.  The blades are stainless with no relief grinding, which of course helps make them more consistent.  The blades have not been sharpened yet.

When I have a chance, I will measure my old SkateScience dance blades as well, just for the information.

[marc]

kaitsu:
je sais qu'il est très difficile de régler le parrallélisme avec des guides rails ( j'ai des machine à bois avec un peu le même système de rails).
Par contre, je ne savais pas qu'il pouvait y avoir des différences d'épaisseur de lames!! et  tu as raisons, je viens de mesurer la prochaine paire et c'est pas la même épaisseur!!
je ne comprends pas le 3 eme paragraphe, mais peut être que c'est cela qu'il me faut répondre: je pense que le porte patin est assez rigide et que le patin du coup ne bouge pas beaucoup.
Le comparateur m'aide pas mal à m'approcher de la réalité, mais je vais essayer, donc, de  faire des calculs en tenant compte de l'épaisseur des lames

I know that it is very difficult to adjust the parallelism with rail guides (I have woodworking machines with somewhat the same rail system).
On the other hand, I did not know that there could be differences in the thickness of the blades!! and you're right, I just measured the next pair and it's not the same thickness!!
I don't understand the 3rd paragraph, but maybe that's what I need to answer: I think the skate holder is quite rigid and the skate doesn't move much.
The comparator helps me a lot to get closer to reality, but I will try, therefore, to make calculations taking into account the thickness of the blades

[Kaitsu]

Hello Marc,

I hope my sketch helps to understand what I see to be small risk. If you compare your design to Wissota Design, you will notice the difference.

https://wissota.com/product/elite-3-d-universal-figure-skate-holder/

[marc]

J'ai du mal à traduire n'étant pas chez moi!
Mais je comprends ce que tu veux dire maintenant.
Je me suis donc inspiré de wissota pour faire mon porte patin mais j'ai eu du mal à copier la pièce que tu dis trop étroite. Et franchement je pense pas qu'il y ait beaucoup de vibrations au niveau des 2 extrémités

[Query]

Attached blade thickness variation from one blade what I have measured.

Did you happen to notice if it was at least symmetric - i.e., how well the chrome relief section was centered on the blade sides, and whether that stayed the same down the blade?

Mike Cunningham told me that chrome plating is sometimes of unequal thickness on the two sides. That would make automatic centering difficult.

I believe many skaters can learn to compensate for slightly non-level edges - as long as the tilt is uniform down the whole blade. Which you can check for.

Some blade holders only use the staunchions; would thickness variation matters less, because you could be more consistent?