Jackson Matrix vs. MK Pros

[ChristyRN]

I've been skating on MK Pros for several years. I was gifted a pair of Jackson Matrix Freestyle blades. It would mean a change from a 7 foot to 8 foot radius. I don't really know what the other differences are profile-wise. I'm going to mount them on my old boots and skate some public sessions to see if I like them before I mount them on my current skates.

What should I expect with the change from 7 foot to 8 foot radius? And will I die trying? 

[Bill_S]

There's a small change in feeling for the rocker, but the bigger issue for me was the different spin rocker that appears to be characteristic of most Jacksons. I COULD NOT get a decent spin with Jackson's I tried. Keep in mind that I did not try the Matrix Freestyle blades, and your tests may provide different results.

I tried MK Pros, Wilson Coronation Aces, Gold Seals, and Pattern 99s and I retained my spins with a small adjustment period. But not the Jacksons.

[supersharp]

I have been measuring the rocker radius on all the new blades I see and there is often very little difference in the main rocker radius, so my guess is you won't feel much difference there. I agree with Bill that the main thing will be whether or not the front profile is at all familiar feeling. I recommend tracing the profile of the new blade and then laying the blade you currently skate in up against it to see how similar (or different) they are. That will give you a sense off what to expect.

I tried some Ultima Ascend dance blades years ago that were like skating on a hockey blade with a toe pick at the front. Compared to the Coronation Ace I had been wearing, they felt crazy.  I only wore them for about 6 weeks while I was waiting for my Skate Science blades to show up, which turned out to feel much better to me. I was glad for the experience, though, since it helped me improve my understanding of what I'm looking for in a blade profile.

[tstop4me]

I can't comment specifically on MK Pro vs Matrix Freestyle.  But I did change a few years ago from a 7' radius main rocker (Wilson Coronation Ace and Eclipse Aurora) to an 8' radius main rocker (Paramount 12", their version of the Wilson Gold Seal), and I was ecstatically surprised.  I got noticeably increased glide (at the same ROH).  With my 7' blades, I would always have to push hard to complete my Figure-8 circles, running low on steam at the end; but with my new blade, I had momentum to spare.  One of my regular warm-up drills is skating backwards the full length of the rink (when I'm on near empty sessions).  I do pay attention to the color lines normally, but I had also grown accustomed to completing the length in a certain number of strokes.  With the new blades, I was gliding so much faster, that I actually crashed into the boards at the end (fortunately, not too hard and no injury).  Paid closer attention to the color lines after that.

One simple comparison of the spin rocker profiles you should do with the blades is heel lift:  how far forward you rock until your bottom toepick touches the ice.  You can even do that off-ice on a wooden or plastic board (a cutting board will do nicely).

[ChristyRN]

There's a small change in feeling for the rocker, but the bigger issue for me was the different spin rocker that appears to be characteristic of most Jacksons. I COULD NOT get a decent spin with Jackson's I tried. Keep in mind that I did not try the Matrix Freestyle blades, and your tests may provide different results.

I tried MK Pros, Wilson Coronation Aces, Gold Seals, and Pattern 99s and I retained my spins with a small adjustment period. But not the Jacksons.

Since I struggle to spin, I can't see this as a true problem. 

[ChristyRN]

I have been measuring the rocker radius on all the new blades I see and there is often very little difference in the main rocker radius, so my guess is you won't feel much difference there. I agree with Bill that the main thing will be whether or not the front profile is at all familiar feeling. I recommend tracing the profile of the new blade and then laying the blade you currently skate in up against it to see how similar (or different) they are. That will give you a sense off what to expect.

I will try this to see how much of a difference there is.

[Kaitsu]

I may have discovered the great secret to why so many consider John Wilson's and MK blades to be the best in the world.

https://youtu.be/0IPnhgtDzWU
https://youtu.be/mGJquJBwJ8k
https://youtu.be/QlCIbczZ8Ms

[Query]

This is a rather frequently asked question.

I think people get used to one blade shape or another. What they get used to seems best to them. A lot of skaters and coaches got used to MK and Wilson blades, before other companies like Jackson Ultima and Paramount got into the game. So coaches advise skaters to use what they know.

Also - MK and Wilson sometimes give away blades to famous skaters and coaches, or give them discounts, so they can say those skaters use their blades. Between those two things, not surprisingly, most people who win World or Olympic metals use MK and Wilson blades. Many skaters look what famous skaters use, and copy them.

I think the Ultima blades require more finesse and body awareness (which I lack), because there is less of a change of curvature between the main rocker and the spin-rocker, so it is harder to tell when you are there. It is also easier to accidentally roll onto your toe pick on them, because it involves a smaller angle change. Some people like that - I guess you can make changes of position more quickly on them, because you don't need to roll as far.

I perhaps foolishly bought a lifetime supply of (old style) Ultima blades, but I still miss my old MK Dance blades (not appropriate for Freestyle, BTW). (I really should switch back, and while I am at it, get custom boots fit by someone who knows what they are doing better the the person who fit me for my last ones. It bothers me that they are so expensive.) I don't miss the Coronation Ace blades I had before that - partly because they were badly warped, which makes for an unfair comparison. (My skate tech should have noticed the warp, and returned them.)

If you want is to be able to feel the transition point between the main rocker and the spin rocker, because you like to turn or spin on that point, and you sharpen your own blades (or have a very good skate tech), you can add a slight (maybe 1 degree??) direction change at the transition point. That is what I do. It removes very little metal to do that. It means I can feel when I am on the transition point. But I admit that is completely atypical. And it is still too easy for me to roll forward onto the toe pick by accident.

A person with more finesse and body awareness could perhaps get used to the change. It really is up to you. If it takes too long to adapt, or you never succeed, maybe it isn't worth the time. If you are paying for lessons, and it takes you months or years to get back to where you are because of the change, it may not be worth it.

[supersharp]

I've been skating on MK Pros for several years. I was gifted a pair of Jackson Matrix Freestyle blades. It would mean a change from a 7 foot to 8 foot radius. I don't really know what the other differences are profile-wise. I'm going to mount them on my old boots and skate some public sessions to see if I like them before I mount them on my current skates.

What should I expect with the change from 7 foot to 8 foot radius? And will I die trying? 

So...ChristyRN, did you try the Matrix blades?  I'm very curious to hear about it if you did.  I'm tempted to do some experimenting with my oldest boots and try some different blades just to understand the differences.  I have a barely used Paramount (Patt99 profile) that I can try, and possibly an Apex Elite.  I feel like I would be able to give better advice to skaters if I had tried more blades. 

It's unfortunate that skates don't mount onto an adjustable frame on the boot (like snowboard bindings).  If they did, we could easily try different blades to determine what we like best. Skate shops could offer to let you try different blades as part of the selection process, like renting demo skis.

[tstop4me]

I may have discovered the great secret to why so many consider John Wilson's and MK blades to be the best in the world.

https://youtu.be/0IPnhgtDzWU
https://youtu.be/mGJquJBwJ8k
https://youtu.be/QlCIbczZ8Ms

I'd be interested in what conclusions you draw from theses videos.  The first two compares the edge geometries of a Wilson Coronation Ace and a P99 with an Ultima dovetail (what Ultima calls "tapered") edge geometry.  The third shows rocker measurements of a Wilson Coronation Ace Lite.  No annotation or commentary provided for any of the videos.  Note that Wilson and MK have blades with other edge geometries than the ones shown in the videos.

[Kaitsu]

I do it in purpose that I do not tell all the secrets right away. People have to use their own brains to discover those.

No matter if we are talking about the Parallel, Parabolic, Side honed or Tapered blades, all chromed Wilson and MK blades share the same basic secrets. Manufacturing process is most likely same in all their blades.

See position 0:20 => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGD4ZoaLp5w
See position 0:21 => https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqF40hdTGubyXfJ_y1XOvYw
See position 0:29 / 1:07 =>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpIAH0ewYY0
See position 0:10 => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKr17HdUiOc

[tstop4me]

I do it in purpose that I do not tell all the secrets right away. People have to use their own brains to discover those.

No matter if we are talking about the Parallel, Parabolic, Side honed or Tapered blades, all chromed Wilson and MK blades share the same basic secrets. Manufacturing process is most likely same in all their blades.

See position 0:20 => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGD4ZoaLp5w
See position 0:21 => https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqF40hdTGubyXfJ_y1XOvYw
See position 0:29 / 1:07 =>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpIAH0ewYY0
See position 0:10 => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKr17HdUiOc

Those are primarily marketing videos, nearly devoid of technical content.  Is that your not so subtle point? 

[Kaitsu]

tstop4me

As you know that Ultima´s dovetail machining is called taper design, you have clearly studied Ultima´s blades technical presentations. I assume that you have also studied and understood why such a "chrome removal grinding" has been developed. If not, I advice to use some time for that. Think about that your skate blade has built from two knives which are side by side. Cap between them presents ROH. So one side of each knife presents the hollow grinding and another side presents chrome removal or taper design depending whom blades we are talking about.
In some reason in skates everyone is just focusing in to the radius of hollow, means only one side of knife. If we would talk about the knives, people would keep it obvious that knives has two sides and they both are important.

When you have understood why Ultima has developed taper design and how the blade edge would look if that would be knife, try to look my videos again. Maybe you notice that world best blades does have totally opposite design to Ultimas taper design. Have you found any description of the benefits of rolled edge design? I haven't and that is the secret.

[tstop4me]

tstop4me

As you know that Ultima´s dovetail machining is called taper design, you have clearly studied Ultima´s blades technical presentations. I assume that you have also studied and understood why such a "chrome removal grinding" has been developed. If not, I advice to use some time for that. Think about that your skate blade has built from two knives which are side by side. Cap between them presents ROH. So one side of each knife presents the hollow grinding and another side presents chrome removal or taper design depending whom blades we are talking about.
In some reason in skates everyone is just focusing in to the radius of hollow, means only one side of knife. If we would talk about the knives, people would keep it obvious that knives has two sides and they both are important.

When you have understood why Ultima has developed taper design and how the blade edge would look if that would be knife, try to look my videos again. Maybe you notice that world best blades does have totally opposite design to Ultimas taper design. Have you found any description of the benefits of rolled edge design? I haven't and that is the secret.

But:

* MK has a blade called the Phantom Special.  It has dovetail edges (what Ultima calls "tapered"). The Wilson Gold Seal (and maybe the MK Gold Star ... not totally sure about that one) has concave side-honing, which essentially creates edge configurations similar to a dovetail, though in what I consider an overly complicated way.  So do you consider those to be inferior blades?  The claim from MK and Wilson is that dovetail/concave-side-honing provides edge configurations with increased bite.  Also, I'm not sure that all Ultima blades have dovetail/tapered edges.

* Some Eclipse blades are chrome-plated plain-carbon steel (including one with concave side honing).  They claim to use a CNC process for chrome relief, allegedly superior to the manual process for chrome relief that Wilson and MK use.  So are Wilson and MK blades still superior to Eclipse blades based on their chrome relief? 

* The new Wilson Phoenix blade is fabricated from stainless steel.  It has no chrome relief.  So should we expect an inferior edge geometry?

* Yes, in previous posts, I've also emphasized the importance of the included angle (knife angle) between the edges (not just the ROH).  Regardless of how carefully ground the hollow is, the finishing operation on the outside surface of the edge is typically done by hand with a whetstone so the included angle will depend on the manual finishing operation.  If you intentionally want a smaller included angle, you just tilt the whetstone more.  I currently skate on Paramount blades with stainless steel blades, no chrome relief.  I intentionally create a smaller included angle and get wickedly sharp edges, which I prefer (I''ll describe how in a separate thread so as not to wander too far off topic here).

* I first thought you were joking.  But now it's clear you're not.  For the reasons discussed above, I don't think the chrome relief is the secret to MK and Wilson's success.  I personally think it's the spin rocker profiles.  For some reason I can't fathom, both Ultima and Eclipse prefer flatter spin rockers.  I've skated previously on the Wilson Coronation Ace and the Eclipse Aurora ("comparable to the Coronation Ace"). The Eclipse Aurora, fabricated in 440C stainless steel and mirror polished to simulate the aesthetics of chrome [no chrome relief], is in almost all respects superior to the Coronation Ace at about the same price (depending on exchange rates) ... except for its flatter spin rocker.  It was a sufficient minus for me that I stopped skating on it.  But I otherwise liked it so much that I asked Eclipse whether they would custom profile a pair with a more pronounced spin rocker; they said no.  Paramount readily admits they closely copy the MK and Wilson spin rocker profiles (though not some of the other details).  But then they designed a blade that did not fit many skate holders and that could not be used with many measuring tools (Sidney Broadbent warned them about that).  They seem to be increasing the width of their runners to correct that.  Let's see if they gain market share.

[ChristyRN]

So...ChristyRN, did you try the Matrix blades?  I'm very curious to hear about it if you did.  I'm tempted to do some experimenting with my oldest boots and try some different blades just to understand the differences.  I have a barely used Paramount (Patt99 profile) that I can try, and possibly an Apex Elite.  I feel like I would be able to give better advice to skaters if I had tried more blades. 

It's unfortunate that skates don't mount onto an adjustable frame on the boot (like snowboard bindings).  If they did, we could easily try different blades to determine what we like best. Skate shops could offer to let you try different blades as part of the selection process, like renting demo skis.

Not yet. I literally just got back on the ice yesterday. I keep forgetting to ask my coach who should mount them on my old boots (my normal tech has told others he wouldn't mount blades not bought through him). I'm not in a huge hurry.

[Kaitsu]

If you want is to be able to feel the transition point between the main rocker and the spin rocker, because you like to turn or spin on that point, and you sharpen your own blades (or have a very good skate tech), you can add a slight (maybe 1 degree??) direction change at the transition point. That is what I do. It removes very little metal to do that. It means I can feel when I am on the transition point. But I admit that is completely atypical. And it is still too easy for me to roll forward onto the toe pick by accident.

It seems that someone has started to imitate your unique sharpening idea.

[Query]

It seems that someone has started to imitate your unique sharpening idea.

It's hard for me to tell from that image. There are serious scratches in the spin rocker area. I couldn't produce scratches that bad with the tools I use even if the blade wasn't lubricated. Can you think of a way to do that even with a powered sharpening machine?

Now that I look at it, though the angle is wrong, I'm not sure there is a hollow in that part of the blade. Like these blades were seriously abused.

Maybe that area was already made that way in the factory blade - or the person does a lot of jumps, to create that effect, possibly on dirty ice, or fake (synthetic) ice?

The spin rocker was also done very unevenly across the width of the blade. Again, I couldn't do that with my tools. I think it would be pretty hard to do that with powered skate sharpening tools too - wouldn't it? Unless you got rid of the table, and hand held the skate so the blade wasn't close to level? I'm not sure what was used. Maybe another type of tool, that was held at the wrong angle?

Or - are there machines where the cross grinding wheel has no table below it, so the tech might hand-hold the skate without a table to guide them, and not bother with the finishing wheel?

Can you figure out how that effect was produced?

There are some pretty bad scratches on the rest of the hollow too, and they go full length, from what I can see. Like they skate a lot on dirty ice, possibly outdoors, though I could be wrong - I've never seen skates that were only sharpened with a very coarse wheel. Maybe they look a little like that.. But I wonder if the entire effect, including the scratched and messed up spin rocker, was just created by skating on dirty ice. Or fake (synthetic) ice?

I'm quite whether this skater does in fact skate on dirty outdoor ice or synthetic ice? Could you ask, next time you see them?

Can you think of another way such a strange pattern of scratches and off-axis metal removal could occur?

Actually, I can think of one. People sharpening rental skates sometimes use a "rental wheel" - an extremely coarse wheel that lets them sharpen the skates in one pass, which they typically do in 20 - 30 seconds. They sometimes hand-hold the skate, not really resting the blade on a table, and quickly move it across. It's remarkable how little time they spend on those blades. And remarkable how bad the resulting edge shape can be. I've seen people try to skate on rental blades that I would have had trouble staying upright on.

But surely, no professional skate tech would do that on anything but rental skates - would they?

And someone sure didn't take much care to avoid rust.  Rust has a tendency to spread, and become worse. If I received blades like that, I would probably remove enough metal to get rid of the rust spots, lest that happen. If you can't successfully encourage the skater to take better care to avoid rust,  maybe you should suggest stainless steel blades - but even they require some care, that it looks like these aren't receiving. And I admit all the decent stainless blades I know of are expensive - maybe too expensive to waste on dirty ice? Would it help to give the skater a special "gift" - like a rag, to wipe the skates dry?

I guess people who sharpen for others see some examples of remarkably poorly cared for skates, like auto mechanics do on cars. Do you see a lot of skates that were taken care of that badly?

[Christy]

Not sure if you've had a chance to try the new blades yet, but I'd say just give yourself time and expect things to feel a bit different. Stand at the boards and rock backwards / forwards to find the new rocker location. Then basic stroking followed by trying stuff like 3-turns. I recently changed blades and find it's the simple things that can feel the most different.