MK Professionals to Jackson Matrix?

[piper]

I am in the market for new skates/blades soon and am wondering if anyone has any experience switching to matrix blades from a more standard blade? I was also wondering if anyone has experience on Matrix Nova blades as they seem to have the most similar profile to my current MK pros which I do like, but there are no reviews I can find on line. My coach also likes my Mks but I am interested in the lighter blade. I don't want to go the route of lites or revs because I like the grab on the standard shaped blades for catch foot moves.

[Bill_S]

After being on Wilson or MK blades for years, I did some comparison shopping a couple of years ago where I tried about 7 or 8 different pairs of blades. I could easily adapt to most MK or Wilson blades up to Gold Seals and Pattern 99s after a few sessions, but had trouble with the Jackson blade. I lost my spins completely, and after a couple of weeks of trying, I switched back. I couldn't get used to the Jackson profile. I'm now on Pattern 99s.

This is only one data point/opinion for your shopping, but something to consider. If you want the conventional blade shape with a lighter blade, I'd certainly check into Paramount blades. They advertise that they closely adhere to various MK and Wilson profiles through their CNC manufacturing process. There's a skater here who goes by tstop4me who uses them and loves them. Perhaps he will chime in about his experience.

[Query]

I too had trouble switching, though I did (from MK Dance to an older generation Matrix  Dance, Supreme and Synchro) - but have never really been happy with them. I did it for economic reasons, with an earlier generation Matrix blades, with inexpensive interchangeable runners, and because I wanted to be able to quickly interchange between dance, synchro and freestyle blades on the same boots. The current generation doesn't interchange, and they are fairly expensive.

The other issue is that many skate shops lack the equipment to sharpen Matrix blades - and that is also a problem with Paramount blades, last I knew.

So if you have a skate shop pro you use to sharpen your skates, you should ask that person too. If they aren't sure they can handle Matrix and/or Paramount blades, you might have to learn to sharpen your own, with appropriate tools, which is a bit of a challenge, and you (or your shop) are more likely to need to fill the old holes and drill new ones.

BTW, MK sells lightweight "MK Professional Lite"blades - but they are more expensive than standard MK Pro. E.g., I don't know if they are the cheapest source, but RainboSports sells the Lite version for $40 more.

I have never used MK Pro blades, or MK Pro Lite blades, but according to
  https://www.shoprainbo.com/product/mk-professional-lite/
and
  https://mkblades.com/products

they sound similar - except it says the Lite version has a thinner blade, for faster edge changes. That might make it a little harder to spin, but I'm not sure. If your skate pro, or other skaters at the rink, are knowledgeable, ask. I'm not an expert on blades, or skating.

In any event, if you use a pro shop to mount and do an initial sharpening on your blades (MK and Wilson have a reputation for needing that, though I don't know if it is still true), it will likely be cheaper in the end to order it through your pro shop, rather than through a discount mail order place.

Good luck!

EDIT: The composition of the Lite blades is a little different. I don't know the consequence. Also, I don't know if it needs any special sharpening equipment. Does anyone here have experience sharpening MK (or JW, same company) Lite blades, or know if the they look like they have a different mount for the sharpening machine?

[supersharp]

I haven't seen the MK Pro Lite in person, but they look like they would work on the ICE sharpener, just based on the online photos.

Before you switch to a non-traditional blade chassis, make sure someone you trust can sharpen them...we have one skater on Wilson Revolutions and unless I buy a special $1,200 holder for the machine, I can't sharpen her blades.  I would have to sharpen her blades 600 times to break even 
She loves them, though, so we'll see how it goes.  I suggested switching to the standard Gold Seal for now and then back to the Revolutions when she is somewhere she can get them sharpened, but she didn't like that idea.  She is hooked on the flex in the chassis, which can't be found in the traditional profile.  I'm curious to see what she decides to do.  Maybe she will travel just enough to be able to get them sharpened periodically?

[Kaitsu]

Supersharp, with $1,200 holder I assume you are referring to Sid Broadbent revolutionary skate holder? I wonder what is so revolutionary on that holder. At least it is super secret invention, as you cannot find any other information than price. I would call that a bit strange marketing strategy. At least I am not willing to put my moneys for holder, if all I know is price and that it should be designed for revolution blades.

I have been sharpening Pattern 99 Rev. and Gold Seal Rev. blades with Sid´s hockey carriage. Pattern 99 is not any problem even-though holder isn't very rigid and causes more easily chatter marks than figure skate holder. Gold Seal Revolutions are real nightmare. I cannot recommend those blades to anyone whom wants good sharpening. Below link to video how Bruce Hurd sharpens Gold Seal revolutions with Ingredible Edger and hockey carriage. I have tried Bruce technique and it didn't work to those blades what I sharpen from time to time. Different sides of blades are not symmetrical, so you cannot trust the "rule" that caps should be equal on both sides when using precision square. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69tWd_K5iBI&t=4s

I have always wondered how Matrix blades taper design affects to the spins (note that Ultima´s taper design has totally different meaning than in Wilson blades). At least Ultima blades taper shape provides more aggressive bite when blade is tilted. This because of the relief angle is several degrees different and totally opposite compared to HD -sports blades which has chrome removal grinding. At least my daughter didn't have any issues with the spins when she used Matrix Supreme. In the time she skated, I wanted to use paramount skates but they were so difficult to get that used Ultima Matrix blades which were stock items. Elite is very close to Pattern 99 profile and Supreme is close to the Gold Seal profile.

Blades which are chromed / chrome is removed, I refused to buy in very early stage. Reason is that in my opinion blades as ruined in that process. Just for curios, when you sharpen skates try to follow if chrome removals are identical on both sides of blades and how they vary from blade to blade.

Generally I would say relaying on other opinions when selecting blades isn't very reliable. Its so much matter of personal opinions. Its almost same that I would ask if I should buy Adidas or Nike shoes. No-one knows which brand / model fits to you best. Technical (mainly sharpening) tips are basically the only which are facts and possibly helping you on future when skates needs to be sharpened.

[supersharp]

Supersharp, with $1,200 holder I assume you are referring to Sid Broadbent revolutionary skate holder? I wonder what is so revolutionary on that holder. At least it is super secret invention, as you cannot find any other information than price. I would call that a bit strange marketing strategy. At least I am not willing to put my moneys for holder, if all I know is price and that it should be designed for revolution blades.

I have been sharpening Pattern 99 Rev. and Gold Seal Rev. blades with Sid´s hockey carriage. Pattern 99 is not any problem even-though holder isn't very rigid and causes more easily chatter marks than figure skate holder. Gold Seal Revolutions are real nightmare. I cannot recommend those blades to anyone whom wants good sharpening. Below link to video how Bruce Hurd sharpens Gold Seal revolutions with Ingredible Edger and hockey carriage. I have tried Bruce technique and it didn't work to those blades what I sharpen from time to time. Different sides of blades are not symmetrical, so you cannot trust the "rule" that caps should be equal on both sides when using precision square. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69tWd_K5iBI&t=4s

I have always wondered how Matrix blades taper design affects to the spins (note that Ultima´s taper design has totally different meaning than in Wilson blades). At least Ultima blades taper shape provides more aggressive bite when blade is tilted. This because of the relief angle is several degrees different and totally opposite compared to HD -sports blades which has chrome removal grinding. At least my daughter didn't have any issues with the spins when she used Matrix Supreme. In the time she skated, I wanted to use paramount skates but they were so difficult to get that used Ultima Matrix blades which were stock items. Elite is very close to Pattern 99 profile and Supreme is close to the Gold Seal profile.

Blades which are chromed / chrome is removed, I refused to buy in very early stage. Reason is that in my opinion blades as ruined in that process. Just for curios, when you sharpen skates try to follow if chrome removals are identical on both sides of blades and how they vary from blade to blade.

Generally I would say relaying on other opinions when selecting blades isn't very reliable. Its so much matter of personal opinions. Its almost same that I would ask if I should buy Adidas or Nike shoes. No-one knows which brand / model fits to you best. Technical (mainly sharpening) tips are basically the only which are facts and possibly helping you on future when skates needs to be sharpened.

Kaitsu:
Yes, I mean the Broadbent listed "Revolutionary" holder. It must be pretty special to cost $1,200US!  I was able to sharpen the Gold Seal Revolution blades using the hockey carriage before I upgraded my machine to the newer model.  I don't have a hockey carriage for the newer model, since I rarely sharpened hockey skates before, so I wasn't interested in paying another $600 to have it.  Useful to know that it might work on the GS Revs but with only one skater wearing them, I don't expect to acquire it anytime soon. 

Maybe when I retire from my engineering job I will want to do more sharpening and will decide it is worth it, but I kind of doubt it. The wheels I use for carbon steel blades tend to load up from stainless, so it would probably make more sense to set up a second machine.  I suppose I could get a new motor and base and resurrect my old ICE parts and use a more favorable wheel for stainless...and then I could use that machine for Revolution blades.  I have a second, smaller diameter bar for the old machine that allows for Paramount blades to be sharpened, so that would give me a pretty full setup.  Of course, right now there are zero skaters on Paramount blades, but we had one in the past.  Her dad supplied the additional rod so I could sharpen her blades.

Really, though, when I retire I think I will probably skate and sail more rather than try to turn sharpening into a bigger job. 

Thanks for the blade profile information regarding Elite and Supreme, we only have a handful of skaters on those blades.  The dovetailed technique on getting a flared edge angle on those models allows a much more reliably square sharpening than the semi-spherical grind on the JWilson and MK blades (and Eclipse Pinnacle). 

In my experience, chrome relief on blades is not identical on any two blades and I agree, not even on both sides of the same blade.  I've seen a few blades where not all of the chrome was removed in bits along the blade edge.  Those had to go back to JWilson for replacement.

Piper: 
Going back to the original question, Eclipse makes a blade with a titanium chassis that fits in any standard sharpening machine, has the traditional look, but is lighter weight:

https://www.ice.riedellskates.com/Catalog/Eclipse-Blades/Infinity-Titanium-Blade

The blade runner is nice quality stainless with a lot of flow. My dance partner used to skate on them and he really liked them.  They appear to be very similar to the profile of the Pattern 99.

[Query]

Supersharp:

It makes sense that you don't want to buy a new expensive tool to sharpen one customer's blades. That would be like asking a Ford dealer to work on a VW. Your customer should have consulted with you to decide whether there could be a problem, before casually ordering blades you couldn't easily sharpen with your current shop equipment. As maybe Piper should consult with her skate tech.

On top of that, it sounds like Piper's coach is familiar with MK Pro, and maybe not with the Matrix model - so might have trouble helping the her to adapt.

[tstop4me]

Maybe when I retire from my engineering job I will want to do more sharpening and will decide it is worth it, but I kind of doubt it. The wheels I use for carbon steel blades tend to load up from stainless, so it would probably make more sense to set up a second machine. I suppose I could get a new motor and base and resurrect my old ICE parts and use a more favorable wheel for stainless...and then I could use that machine for Revolution blades. I have a second, smaller diameter bar for the old machine that allows for Paramount blades to be sharpened, so that would give me a pretty full setup.  Of course, right now there are zero skaters on Paramount blades, but we had one in the past.  Her dad supplied the additional rod so I could sharpen her blades.

<<Emphasis added.>>

The new Phoenix blades are advertised by Wilson as having stainless steel runners.  But the Revolution blades have plain carbon steel runners.  When the Revolutions first came out, Wilson didn't advertise what steel was used in the runners.  There were unfounded posts in several forums (including this one) that the runners were stainless steel.  I contacted Wilson directly, and they assured me that they were made of "the finest quality carbon steel".

Also, a friend of mine has the Revolution P99.  The crevices in the chassis tend to trap snow and water, difficult to dry off thoroughly.  She's had problems with rust that she didn't have previously with traditional P99.  So definitely not stainless steel.

[tstop4me]

I am in the market for new skates/blades soon and am wondering if anyone has any experience switching to matrix blades from a more standard blade? I was also wondering if anyone has experience on Matrix Nova blades as they seem to have the most similar profile to my current MK pros which I do like, but there are no reviews I can find on line. My coach also likes my Mks but I am interested in the lighter blade. I don't want to go the route of lites or revs because I like the grab on the standard shaped blades for catch foot moves.

I can't answer your question directly, but I can caution you as to what to check out before you buy.

*  Be careful of blades that are marketed as "comparable to" an equivalent MK or Wilson blade.  "Comparable to" means whatever a marketing guy wants it to mean.  It does not necessarily mean "a clone of" or "identical to" in terms of all critical blade parameters.

*  In particular, Ultima and Eclipse blades tend to have flatter spin rockers than their MK and Wilson counterparts.  The Nova is Ultima's model comparable to the MK Gold Star.  If you are particularly interested in the spin rocker, check carefully before you buy.  You can try to get specs from Jackson/Ultima.  Or, if a local pro shop carries demo models of both the MK Pro and Matrix Nova in the same size, do a simple heel lift comparison.

*  Paramount has somewhat the opposite problem.  They take great pride in reproducing the spin rockers of the MK and Wilson counterparts, but they don't think the main rocker radius (e.g., 7' vs 8') is all that important.  Paramount also doesn't include other details such as side honing and taper (not relevant for standard MK Pro).  If you are specifically interested in a 7' radius main rocker, verify with Paramount which (if any) of their blades actually have a 7' radius main rocker.  For example, the SP model is advertised as "Comparable to the Wilson Gold Seal and Pro", which is weird since the Gold Seal has an 8' radius main rocker, whereas the Pro has a 7' radius main rocker.  The CA model is advertised specifically as comparable to the Wilson Coronation Ace, and the CP is advertised specifically as comparable to the MK Professional.  So check with Paramount what the main rocker radius is.  Note:  The CA and CP have plain carbon steel runners, not stainless steel runners.  If you are interested mainly in lighter weight alternatives, rather than stainless steel alternatives, the CP (assuming it has a 7' radius main rocker) may do the trick, especially since it sells for less than the standard MK Pro.  The Paramount 440C stainless steel is damn good (I have the model comparable to the Gold Seal), but really pricey.

[sampaguita]

She can probably have her skates shipped somewhere else and back. My former coach used to have two pairs of skates exactly for this reason. He never trusted any sharpener except the one from his home rink abroad.

[tstop4me]

She can probably have her skates shipped somewhere else and back. My former coach used to have two pairs of skates exactly for this reason. He never trusted any sharpener except the one from his home rink abroad.

*  Shipping charges have really climbed in recent years.

*  Buying two identical pairs of boots and blades at the same time is economically viable only if (1) your feet are no longer growing, (2) you are no longer upgrading, and (3) you are certain of which boots and blades work for you.  For the OP, we have no info on (1), but (2) and (3) do not appear to be satisfied.

[tstop4me]

EDIT: The composition of the Lite blades is a little different. I don't know the consequence. Also, I don't know if it needs any special sharpening equipment. Does anyone here have experience sharpening MK (or JW, same company) Lite blades, or know if the they look like they have a different mount for the sharpening machine?

<<Emphasis added.>>

Just to clarify:  By "composition" , do you mean mechanical design or material?   The mechanical design is obviously different, but I haven't seen anything on the MK website or elsewhere concerning a different material.

[Query]

<<Emphasis added.>>

Just to clarify:  By "composition" , do you mean mechanical design or material?   The mechanical design is obviously different, but I haven't seen anything on the MK website or elsewhere concerning a different material.

I took (from https://mkblades.com/products/professional-lite)

It also features our new 'Tuff' plate design which is lighter and 2X as strong as traditional options.

to imply that they used one or more different materials, either in the plate itself, or in the way it is welded or soldered to the runner.

If you compare the picture of https://mkblades.com/products/professional-lite to the picture of https://mkblades.com/products/professional, you will notice that most of the external shape is similar - though the Professional has a hole in the middle of the forefoot plate that the lite does not. The angles are slightly different, so it might be that the Lite plate is thinner, to make it lighter - but that wouldn't explain why the Lite design would be twice as strong. So I assume there is an internal difference - alloy composition, or something about tempering and hardening. But they don't provide enough information to figure out precisely what the difference is.

[tstop4me]

I took (from https://mkblades.com/products/professional-lite)
to imply that they used one or more different materials, either in the plate itself, or in the way it is welded or soldered to the runner.

If you compare the picture of https://mkblades.com/products/professional-lite to the picture of https://mkblades.com/products/professional, you will notice that most of the external shape is similar - though the Professional has a hole in the middle of the forefoot plate that the lite does not. The angles are slightly different, so it might be that the Lite plate is thinner, to make it lighter - but that wouldn't explain why the Lite design would be twice as strong. So I assume there is an internal difference - alloy composition, or something about tempering and hardening. But they don't provide enough information to figure out precisely what the difference is.

That's the same website I saw.  OK.  So you're simply guessing that there could be a change in material composition; MK is actually silent on that point.  Note that "twice as strong"  (however they define it ... which they don't on the website) could also arise from the new mechanical design, without a change in material composition. A third option is that the reduction in weight and increase in strength is due to a combination of a change in material composition and a change in mechanical design. But as it stands, we have insufficient information to determine what is responsible; that is, we cannot conclude that there is in fact a change in material composition.

[Query]

Of course you are right - we do have insufficient info. But that is true of a lot of things with the major skate blade companies - they don't explain exactly what they mean. There is sometimes a lot more advertising hype than specifics, making it hard to make good decisions. Also, it isn't altogether clear whether some of what they are saying would also apply to the current version of the standard MK Pro.

I get that "strong" can mean many different things to many different people. E.g., less flexible (in the short term? in the long term?), less likely to break or wear out (in the short term?, in the long term?). Another example of the difference between advertising hype and useful information.

When information is insufficient, all we can do is guess.

(BTW, in another context, I recently read a very old book, "The New Science of Strong Materials", by J.E. Gordon, published in 1968 - I don't know whether there was a newer edition, or whether another text has replaced it. It made it quite clear that "strong" and "tough" are very complicated questions.)

[tstop4me]

When information is insufficient, all we can do is guess.

Or not guess, and stay silent on the matter.  Or give a qualified answer:  say that there are several possibilities (one of which might be X), but that we don't have enough information to say for sure.  Otherwise, other readers might run with your unqualified sentence "The composition of the Lite blades is a little different." as fact and propagate it.

(BTW, in another context, I recently read a very old book, "The New Science of Strong Materials", by J.E. Gordon, published in 1968 - I don't know whether there was a newer edition, or whether another text has replaced it. It made it quite clear that "strong" and "tough" are very complicated questions.)

Many materials parameters are not fundamental parameters and are often defined by specified prescribed tests. 

[supersharp]

  <<Emphasis added.>>

The new Phoenix blades are advertised by Wilson as having stainless steel runners.  But the Revolution blades have plain carbon steel runners.  When the Revolutions first came out, Wilson didn't advertise what steel was used in the runners.  There were unfounded posts in several forums (including this one) that the runners were stainless steel.  I contacted Wilson directly, and they assured me that they were made of "the finest quality carbon steel".

Also, a friend of mine has the Revolution P99.  The crevices in the chassis tend to trap snow and water, difficult to dry off thoroughly.  She's had problems with rust that she didn't have previously with traditional P99.  So definitely not stainless steel.

My comment about setting up the old machine for stainless was not because I think the Revolution blades are stainless; I would set the machine up with a wheel that is more favorable for stainless blades because I sharpen about 6 pair of them amongst our group of skaters.  I could either use that wheel or replace it when sharpening the Rev blades.  I'm more motivated to do something extra to make the stainless sharpening be easy, because my blades, my dance partner's blades, and my coach's blades are all stainless (SkateScience). 

The skater here that has Revolution blades also has a hard time getting the water out.  She used to blow through the chassis to displace the water, but now that we're all wearing masks, that had to go. 

[Query]

I guess "strong" is even more ambiguous than I considered. E.g., maybe MK decided that the most likely to damage forces are those that occur when a skater under or over rotates a jump landing, so you generate a large sideways force against the blade, together with a forwards impact - and designed something, like the way the runner and chassis are welded together, to specificity take that type of stress. That wouldn't really mean that the materials or shape or the way they are welded together are stronger in every respect - but they would be stronger in some respects.

So, OK, you win. I have insufficient information to guess at composition changes.

Purely out of curiosity I sent MK a couple questions

Subject: Differences between MK Pro and MK Pro Lite

At https://www.mkblades.com/products/professional-lite your website says

"We've thinned down the runner to allow for quicker edge change."

Was this also done for the MK Pro, or just for the MK Pro Lite?

You also say:

"It also features our new 'Tuff' plate design which is lighter and 2X as strong as traditional options."

Can you give any details? E.g., do you mean it is less likely to break in a single jump, or that it will wear out less quickly in the long term?

Is the material composition identical for the MK Pro and MK Pro Lite?

However, in the past, MK (and JW) have not answered any of my questions, so I don't expect a response. I think it even more unlikely they would answer more detailed questions, because that might reasonably be considered proprietary information.

Matrix does have an important advantage - aluminum chassis and stainless steel runners - which discourages rust and corrosion. At least in my personal experience, stainless blades need less frequent sharpening, and it is easier to discourage rust on stainless blades than the steel alloys most reasonably high end MK and Wilson blades use. But perhaps the steels MK and JW mostly prefer have a different advantage I don't know about, that becomes clear at higher skating levels than mine. Also - though this info may be out of date - the Jackson Matrix factory sharpening was more consistent than MK and JW blades, and they also gave the part of the blade next to the toe pick sharper edges.

But despite that, many of us have found that switching blade shapes has been problematical, so staying within the MK line, and maybe even staying within the MK Pro/Pro Lite lines, would seem like an easier transition.

[tstop4me]

My comment about setting up the old machine for stainless was not because I think the Revolution blades are stainless; I would set the machine up with a wheel that is more favorable for stainless blades because I sharpen about 6 pair of them amongst our group of skaters.  I could either use that wheel or replace it when sharpening the Rev blades.  I'm more motivated to do something extra to make the stainless sharpening be easy, because my blades, my dance partner's blades, and my coach's blades are all stainless (SkateScience). 

The skater here that has Revolution blades also has a hard time getting the water out.  She used to blow through the chassis to displace the water, but now that we're all wearing masks, that had to go.

Thanks for the clarification on what you meant concerning sharpening Revolutions.

I guess in times of COVID, the skater could carry canned air in her bag (just what she needs ... something else in her bag!).

[tstop4me]

I guess "strong" is even more ambiguous than I considered.

I wouldn't say that "strength" is ambiguous.  It's just that it's not characterized by a single parameter; hence, we have "compressive strength", "tensile strength", "shear strength", "impact strength", .... Furthermore, since the condition of the material itself is altered by the test (and I'm not talking uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics here ... I'm talking destructive testing), the test results are highly dependent on the specific test conditions (often multiple standards exist).  The same is true of other materials properties, such as hardness; e.g., we have relative scratch hardness (not well controlled) and indent hardness (with multiple standards for indent hardness).

[Query]

MK did respond!

From: Customer Service <customerservice@hdsports.co.uk>
To: (me)

Thanks for the email about the Professional range.

The traditional Professional has a runner width of 4.1mm compared to the thinner 3.8mm on the Lite variant, giving the quicker edge change.

As for the sole plate, the tuff plate is lighter, thinner, and stronger. This adds to the lightweight design of the Lite blade and in turn will add extra durability to the blade for jumps. The material is the same for both models except the sole plate on the Lite variant.
Best regards,

Kyle Boyer
Customer Service & B2B Webmaster
HD Sports Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)114 241 3350

MK Blades and John Wilson

[supersharp]

Great that they responded, particularly with the blade thickness.

Not so generous with the sole plate information, though, haha.  "Lighter, thinner, stronger"...that's what I would also like to be.

[tstop4me]

MK did respond!

Thanks for the report.  Surprised they got back to you so quickly.  So it looks like the material composition in the sole plate has changed ... to what remains a mystery.

[tstop4me]

  "Lighter, thinner, stronger"...that's what I would also like to be.

I nominate this for the best line posted here for 2021.  I know there's still 3 months left, but it'll be hard to beat! 

ETA:  In place of "Citius, Altius, Fortius", we now have the mantra "Levius, Tenuius, Fortius".

[Query]

So it looks like the material composition in the sole plate has changed ... to what remains a mystery.

The person provided a phone number. You could always call. But I think that is probably proprietary information.

If you did call - I would love to know if there is a good reason MK/JW uses non-stainless steels, as opposed to hardenable stainless alloys like 440. 

An interesting question is whether the MK Pro Lite is also stiffer or less stiff, and how that affects skating. Also whether it is more or less rust resistant (in the base plate). Though obviously there are lots of potential variables in rust, such as plating. And why MK and JW don't offer Lite versions of all their blades.

I am curious what the o.p. (piper) decides to buy, and whether piper is happy with the new blades.