Underbooted?

[beginner skater]

That's great news.If there isnt a rink where she can see you skate, maybe take a video of you landing your jumps so she can see how much speed and power you have?  Then you'll know she knows. Looking forward to hearing how you get on 

[aussieskater]

Great result and glad the fitter is standing by her product.  Question - does she know you're a returning skater?  How far did you get as a child/teen?  The answers could materially affect her recommendations.

[Heewonee1103]

 

Awesome. Try both the premieres and the boot above, and see how they feel for you. The premiere might be ok. I tried a pair on when I bought 4 yrs ago. I'm in a similar situation to you....I came back after a 25yr break. I only do dance now and really wanted dance boots, but was trying to decipher those stiffness ratings.  I was also trying to avoid overbooting, because I do like my boots stiff. Its a delicate balance and resulted in some injuries for me in the past..... So unlike a previous poster, if there's a doubt, I'd rather get skates that I might break down in a year (and have good patch skates should the opportunity ever arise), and have to rebuy sooner.

She might be right about fit being the bigger issue, but don't be afraid to override the fitter and go stiffer, if your feet/ankles tell you it's ok. Keep in mind though that you are coming back and there will be more skates in your future.

Is her shop in a rink? My US fitter is, and him watching his clients skate helps him immensely when it comes to decisions like this....

So happy for you. She sounds like a good person to have on your team.

Unfortunatly her shop is not in a rink. I wish it was  though! And the Premieres I'm getting is actually a new line that just rolled out this year 2800 instead of 2500. I checked Jackson's website and from what I can tell it emphasizes much on better ankle support and security with some new features. I would definitely try on the stiffer boots she got though. Whatever I get , I hope it works out ! Whatever I get I hope everything works out. I feel like I'm just having a hard time because I came back after such a long break and I haven't found out what works for me but once I do everything will be smoother. Thanks for your support!! 

[Heewonee1103]

That's great news.If there isnt a rink where she can see you skate, maybe take a video of you landing your jumps so she can see how much speed and power you have?  Then you'll know she knows. Looking forward to hearing how you get on 

That's a good idea. I think her answer might be same as before though.. Because I'm still doing single jumps right now and Premieres are rated for beginner double jumps but she's saying it will be a long time before I'll be able to start double jumps. I mean which could be probably true and it depends on what she means by a "long time". She was expecting my boots to only last 9 months or shorter to a year before I have to upgrade everytime.

[Heewonee1103]

Great result and glad the fitter is standing by her product.  Question - does she know you're a returning skater?  How far did you get as a child/teen?  The answers could materially affect her recommendations.

Yes, she did ask that question and I don't think it helps very much because I skated off and on for years before I completely quit but It was where figure skating wasn't so popular at the time and the lessons weren't very much structured like It is in the US (where I live now). So it was always more focused on spins and moves than jumps. Like I could do a lot of difficult spins but never got to double jumps and was mostly working on edge jumps (I don't know if it was the particular coach or their system in general) I feel like I built up a lot of strength and ability from skating for a long time but I was lack proper lessons on jumps. I guess it's hard to explain..  So when people ask it's always about what was the most difficult jump that you were working on when you skated and I tell them and it always gives them a wrong idea on how much I can skate if that makes sense. My coach was the same way until she saw me actually skate like she had to make a whole new plan for lessons lol but my coach and I are really focusing on getting to double jumps right now and she thinks I'm progressing really quick. I think I will be able to start working on double jumps in a few months. Anyways, I didn't really explain all this to the fitter at the time because when I went to her I'd had only one lesson with my coach and didn't know how fast I'd progress but I'll explain better if I have to this time.Thank you for your post!

[Loops]

I checked Jackson's website and from what I can tell it emphasizes much on better ankle support and security with some new features.

I saw that, too. All those extra hooks don't necessarily appeal to my aesthetics, but would be great for getting the ankle as tight as I like....especially as the boot softens over time. I think they've potential to be a very good thing.

A video of you skating, not just jumping but spinning and doing edgework too is a brilliant idea. Hope round 2 of the great skate challenge goes well!

[tstop4me]

Okay.. So.. I called the fitter and let her know all the problems that I was having. She was very much willing to work with me. She wanted to see a couple of pictures of me wearing the skates. After that she said she could tell tthat the skates weren't fitting so right since I've been wearing them for a few weeks. I mentioned that I feel like I needed more support though but she said that the competitors are pretty stiff boots and the problem is more with the fit than the stiffness but she said I'm a taller skater so she can put me in one higher level boot which is the premiers. And I'm also going down one size. She said she will order and I will be able to try them on and get them next week. She said she has higher level boots in stock in my size (I'm not sure which but I'm thinking probably 4200 or 4500) but she wouldn't put me in those because they will be way too stiff. I just think she believes stronly in upgrading boots as the person's skill goes up than buying stiffer boots right away. She's just thinks that overbooting will interfere with improving  skills. Oh btw she will take my currents boots back So I will update when I try them on next week. If really think that the premiers are still not stiff enough (I think I'll know better this time ) then i still have an option to try on the stiffer boots that she has in stock. (Even though I don't think she will put me in them lol )  I hope everything works out ! Oh and I'm getting Mk Professional blades with them. I guess coaches in the area prefer MK Prifessional than Wilson Coronation. Anyways I really appreciated that the fitter was very very much willing to help me  Wish me luck and any opinions are welcome!

Well, it's good that your skate tech is willing to take your skates back.  But I'd still be leery of her.  I'm surprised that her response is simply to order one size smaller in the Premier.  Each model has a somewhat different shape.  She should have taken measurements and tracings of your feet and sent them to Jackson to determine the best sizing for a particular model.  Anyway, good luck!

[Query]

I am a little puzzled that a well recommended fitter would get you boots that were substantially too large. I guess everyone makes mistakes, but that seems pretty basic. Unless it was really Jackson's fault.

You said she was well recommended. Was that by hockey skaters, speed skaters, or figure skaters? It is quite possible for someone to be pretty good at fitting hockey or speed skates, but not have a very good understanding of figure skates. In the rest of this, I am going to assume she was well recommended by figure skaters.

My personal opinion and experience:

You can get by with a stiffer boot if the boot liner is plush enough. On the other hand, if it is bare leather, or the liner is too thin, it will be painful if you try to use too stiff a boot.

If the fitter really is willing to take back those broken down boots, and give you a better fit, that's great. She is essentially absorbing the whole cost of the boots, as she will be unable to do anything useful with them. OTOH, if she ordered you the wrong size (which could do everything bad you described), then she was at fault.

But I too would be tempted to ask for an upgrade, even if you have to pay a little extra, on both the boot (and make sure you get nice plush pile lining) - and my guess as to what she gave your for blades (based on the prices you were charged). A $60 or less pair of blades might be good enough for someone who is trying to learn basic strokes and maybe bunny hops, but aren't good enough for someone at your level. They will also probably rust fairly quickly, and need a lot of sharpenings because the steel isn't hard enough. Which will be good for the shop, but a nuisance and expense for you.

Sure, you will need to pay a bit extra for better boots and blades - maybe $200 - $300 total. But you will probably be happier in the long run, when they don't break down in a few months, and the blades can do what you want them to do.

[PrairieSkater13]

Happy she'll take your boots back, and hope your new ones work out better!

I returned to figure skating over 20 years after taking lessons as a kid and then a teenager. I'm about the same weight as you. I bought Jackson Elle skates (stiffness 35) as I wasn't sure how serious I was going to get. They took a while to break in, and then they just didn't provide enough support for single jumps and footwork and I had to stop wearing them in about a month of skating (skating only 1.5 hours a week too!). It was suggested that I go up to Competitors or Premieres, but I found that going up to the Elites (stiffness 75) was even more comfortable and I could handle the stiffness. Didn't feel much different than the Premieres. More comfy and a better tongue on them.

I ended up buying some Edea Ice Fly skates, but if I was going with Jackson I would go to the Elites for sure. The Premieres may be for singles and starting doubles, but that's not really for adults. Adults usually need to go up in stiffness from what a kid or teenager would need to, especially if you're harder on your skates.

[Query]

I didn't think carefully enough about suggesting you upgrade the blades, because, even if she replaces the boots at not extra cost (and make sure again that is true before you have her order), or for the price difference to an upgrade, she might not take the old blades back.

I actually called one of the pro shops and the fitter there referred me to her because all the high leveled skaters in the area go to her.

Re-reading this, it isn't actually clear that you spoke to good figure skaters - just to a fitter who wasn't himself or herself competent to do the job. That fitter might even be friend or family to the fitter you went to. So your fitter may still be incompetent. Both underbooting and a bad fit strongly suggest this was the case. So it could be a significant risk to upgrade through her.

Even if you go back to her, I think it would make sense to first talk to other good skaters and coaches, and to a skate tech referred to you by them, about whether to upgrade the boots and blades, and how. Of course that takes a lot more time - the good skaters and coaches may only come to the rink at times (high freestyle sessions, or middle of the day) that you currently find inconvenient, and you won't always find them there, but this is a big decision, worthy of spending the extra time, not only for the sake of your skating skills, but for your health. I once broke a leg in skates that didn't fit and weren't stiff enough (though there were other factors, like not knowning yet how to fall gently).

It is common in the skating world for people to recognize that a poor skate tech has done such a bad job that it is better not to throw away good money after bad, and risk injuries as well, and instead to start fresh with the best available skate tech. It's like going to a bad mechanic: not only may the bad mechanic fail to fix your car, but he/she is very likely to damage your car further, and cause you to get into an accident that does you serious harm.

[Nate]

Based on the information given by the OP, she should have been put in Premieres.

Height/Weight suggests that the softer boots would have been a disaster, or lasted < 6 months because they started feeling "unsafe."  A good fitter would have just looked at her and known those boots would likely not fit the bill.

That being said, we do not know the conversation that went on when the order was being placed.  If she told the fitter she would be working on doubles "soon," then it makes no sense that she was recommended a boot that weak.

As a consumer you should also do a bit of your own research (since you're spending the money).  Competitors are not for doubles when you're 5'8" 130#+.  They're for up to Axels, and I've found that you often has to "boot up" as an Adult since the boot makers tend to make recommendations based on fairly stereotypical body types.

Many adult skaters need to go straight to Intermediate Freestyle boots due to their Height/Weight and Strength.  Boots that feel "okay" when you first put them on can end up feeling unsupportive after you've skated in them a while and your legs get stronger.

Issues with underbooting happen regardless of "fitter skill."  A skilled fitter just reduces the likelihood of those issues.

[Query]

As a consumer you should also do a bit of your own research (since you're spending the money)....
Issues with underbooting happen regardless of "fitter skill."  A skilled fitter just reduces the likelihood of those issues.

Consumer research would be easier if Jackson gave guidelines on their web page. Are there any there? I tried starting at http://www.jacksonskates.com - the main Jackson webpage - and clicked on the obvious things. You end up with a list of boot models, but nothing there that I could find indicated anything about skating levels, weights, etc. Some of the other brands give guidelines.

I understand that an underbooting or overbooting might occur if the fitter doesn't have enough info - though a good fitter would do his or her best to elicit the necessary information. But you are right - we didn't hear the conversation.

However, I would claim that a misfit usually does reflect negatively on fitter skill. Boots that are a little bit too large can easily be compensated for by insole modification. Boots that are too small can sometimes also be - and/or by stretching the leather. But, if after doing what the she could to make it fit right on delivery, the fitter now claims that the original boots were too large by such an extant that the boots broke down, as the o.p. seems to be claiming, the fitter made a major mistake. She either ordered the wrong size, or failed to recognize that Jackson had sent the wrong size, and that the boots did not fit the o.p.

(I do admit that while handing out rental boots, I have occasionally run into problems where a small child insists boots are too small - though it is obvious they are too large. There really isn't anything a fitter of any type can do about that sort of problem, other than try to determine whether the boots are squeezing one small part of the foot, where the boots can be stretched. I didn't hear the conversation when the fitter gave the boots to the o.p., so I suppose there is a small possibility that something similar happened.)

[Heewonee1103]

Okay so... I finally went to go see the fitter and got new boots and new blades. And she took my old skates back and credited 100% towards my new skate purchase. I ended up getting the new Premiere boots (2800) that she ordered for me and mk professional blades. So I kind of have a better idea why I was having all those problems.. It was combination of things. first,the boots were definitely too  big.. Second, I needed more stiffness, and the new thing I found out was the blade placement on my left skate. Not that it was mounted wrong or anything  but it just needed some adjustment. Anyways, the new premieres in a smaller size seem to work well. I already skated once with them and I actually like them. I like the extra wrap feature and  the eyelet placement. I felt pretty good (secure) in them. The fitter said she didn't like the old premieres but she likes this one. I can tell it's way way way better than competitors.. (Not only the stiffness but they are better boots overall) I can definitely use one thin insole for my left boot though.. If I went one more size smaller it wouldn't have worked for my right foot but with this one I can put an insole on my left and it will be fine. The competitors I had were too big insoles and footbeds weren't doing anything. I will see how long the premieres will last but I like them so far and it works out right now so I'm happy. Now I feel like myself and also  the fitter know  what I need and what works for me after going through all this so I think my future skate shopping will be easier! Lol

[Loops]

Yay!!! very happy to hear this update. My fingers are crossed that the fit issue is sorted....as much as it sounds like it can be, at least. Here's to wonky feet!

[Query]

Glad that you are happy, for now. Did she do a heat mold? Jackson says the Premiere boots can be, and it would probably help a lot.

I'm still curious. When the first pair of skates were delivered, did the same fitter check that they fit? Or did someone else at the shop handle the delivery?

Do you need help on changing or modifying the insole?

[Heewonee1103]

Glad that you are happy, for now. Did she do a heat mold? Jackson says the Premiere boots can be, and it would probably help a lot.

I'm still curious. When the first pair of skates were delivered, did the same fitter check that they fit? Or did someone else at the shop handle the delivery?

Do you need help on changing or modifying the insole?

She did heat mold them. And yes. She's the same person who did the initial fitting. I tried the thinnest insole I hVe on my left boot but it made it too small. I think my foot fits okay it's more of the ankle area that gives me the problem. I ordered a bunga boot bumper for my left foot. I tried a thicker sticking I have for skating ib my left at home and the boot fit better. Hopefully the boot bumper works 

[Heewonee1103]

Yay!!! very happy to hear this update. My fingers are crossed that the fit issue is sorted....as much as it sounds like it can be, at least. Here's to wonky feet!

Thank you !!! 

[Query]

I tried the thinnest insole I hVe on my left boot but it made it too small.

So add a little cloth athletic tape underneath the insole?

I think my foot fits okay it's more of the ankle area that gives me the problem.

Can you be more specific? E.g., do you mean that all the pressure on the side of the boot is against your ankle bones? (Fix: stretch out the boot there, something a good fitter should be able to do - or you could do with a ball and ring pliers.) Or do you mean there isn't enough pressure? (Add more tape, which hopefully pushes up the foot into a smaller area.) Or something else. 99% of fixing these things lies in figuring out the problem.

[Heewonee1103]

So add a little cloth athletic tape underneath the insole?

Can you be more specific? E.g., do you mean that all the pressure on the side of the boot is against your ankle bones? (Fix: stretch out the boot there, something a good fitter should be able to do - or you could do with a ball and ring pliers.) Or do you mean there isn't enough pressure? (Add more tape, which hopefully pushes up the foot into a smaller area.) Or something else. 99% of fixing these things lies in figuring out the problem.

It's like I don't have enough pressure on the ankle area

[Query]

Then, as I said, you might think of adding tape or adhesive foam (e.g., moleskin) to thicken the insole. You could also apply adhesive foam to the ankle area of the boot, to create a tighter fit. And, of course, you can try to tie the boot tighter. Maybe use a lace puller for the final tightening iteration, if your hands aren't strong enough.

I wonder if a Silipose or similar band at the ankles would help. I've never used one, but a lot of people here love them. Partly for padding, but they also take up space, and to some extent mold to fit your body.

I think a lot of people find they have to experiment with many different methods of fixing fit problems before something works well.

You may as well discuss it with the fitter - she might have ideas of her own, or be willing to help. A lot of fitters are very proud of fixing many types of fit problems. The fact that she absorbed the initial loss definitely shows that she is willing to try hard to keep customers happy.

I hope all is going well!

[Loops]

It's like I don't have enough pressure on the ankle area

I use silipos gel sleeves to help with this. As the boots break in though you might find you're able to crank down on the hook area harder and get that ankle to fit more snugly. This has been the case with me.

I am a super duper fan of silipos though.

[tstop4me]

It's like I don't have enough pressure on the ankle area

Could you be more specific?  Are you talking about the sides of the ankle or front/back of the ankle?  That's important info for a suggested fix.

[Nate]

Consumer research would be easier if Jackson gave guidelines on their web page. Are there any there? I tried starting at http://www.jacksonskates.com - the main Jackson webpage - and clicked on the obvious things. You end up with a list of boot models, but nothing there that I could find indicated anything about skating levels, weights, etc. Some of the other brands give guidelines.

Finding the correct website is part of that.

www.jacksonultima.com

And if you click the necessary things you arrive at:



So yes, a consumer can go to the fitter with an idea of what type of boot they're looking for (and which recommendations to reject, if necessary).

Every major boot maker has this type of information on their website.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Query]

Ouch! You are right.    I must have missed the rating. (Or has it changed?)

[Nate]

You probably ended up on the wrong website.  The ratings have been on there for years.  All manufacturers I've used (Lol? so sad...) seem to have Ratings or generally recommended levels for the different boot models.

I've seen those boots in person.  The 5 hooks looks like a LOT of work.


I do think the sheer number of boot models manufacturers like Riedell and Jackson have can be incredibly intimidating to some people.  I think this may be part of the appeal of Edea.  You cannot overboot, so you can always go straight to a higher end boot, and the longevity of the equipment will make up for the price increase (while eliminating concerns regarding under-booting).