Crossed ankles in double jumps (and beyond)

[ARoo]

Something to ponder... 

There is a skater at our rink who has (what I think are) ugly double toes and double salchows. I never really cared enough to pick them apart until my daughter started landing doubles and it really started bothering me.  I took a couple videos the other day.  When slowed down, you can easily tell that the reason they look off is because she isn't in a proper crossed ankle position.  Her feet are mostly side-by-side and her free leg is extended forward at the time of landing.

The question is...  is this technically wrong or just non-standard?  She completes IJS and is never marked down for these jumps. It appears that there is no technique issue with jumping this way.  What say you?

[icedancer]

What level is she skating?

She may be getting dinged in the component marks and those are not so obvious to people looking at the scores.

So technically she might be doing the jumps from the correct edges with the correct numbers of revolutions and correct landings but they are not pretty to look at.

Good observation.

[ARoo]

Apparently novice this season, but intermediate for the past 2 years with long program scores around 35-40.  I think this is actually the first year that she's had both a 2T and 2S in her long program, but taken individually she doesn't seem to get dinged on them. 

I've been researching a bit and it's a hard topic to search on.  The closest I could find to an answer was one person who said definitively that there is no requirement to cross your ankles in any jump.  I'm just wondering if that's really true that you can do a jump any which way as long as it starts from the correct edge and it lands.

[Query]

I'll never do a double jump, but isn't the cross a way of getting your mass distribution closer to the spin axis? In other words, maybe it limits how fast she can spin in the air.

Does she do it on spins too?

I tried searching yahoo.com for

  +crossed +jump site:usfsa.org
  +crossed +jump site:isu.org

and didn't find anything relevant - so there may be nothing in the rulebook, though it could be worded differently.

[PhysicsOnIce]

Technically, like ARoo mentioned, she might be on the correct take-off and landing edges, which means it is a correct jump, and as far as I know there is no requirement for the in air-position. This is like saying that you have to have a specific arm position, which is not the case at all (I know of at least three different arm positions which are all considered to be correct for a basic in air position)

However, What you describe to me sounds like a very characteristic "mistake" of someone who is not passing the free leg before/during take off and snapping into the proper backspin position. You should be able to see this in the video. If someone is properly passing, the ankles/legs will naturally cross. There is an instant in the take-off where your free leg, is actually in front of your picking/skating leg, as you continue to turn and hit the backspin position the picking/skating leg catches up to the free leg and that's where you get the crossed ankles (sometime knees for lower level skaters).   

If a person is a fast rotator, it is possible to complete "clean" beginning doubles without passing, however in most cases the person will at best get 0 GOEs and in worst cases negative GOEs. I must say that while I can see how someone could do this for a 2T or a 2S, I have a hard time imagining anyone not passing successfully completely 2F or 2Lz. 

[Doubletoe]

There is no requirement on the air position of any jump; you just need to take off from the correct edge and land on the correct edge, with the correct number of revolutions in the air.  In fact, when skaters were first landing double jumps, nobody even thought of crossing their left shin over the right in the air.  Here's a video of Cecilia Colledge, the first woman to land a double salchow in competition:  https://youtu.be/IY8nYJ2k-uE?t=1m10s  Even on her best double salchow, her legs were side-by-side, not crossed:  https://youtu.be/eDLVM-Hjzwc?t=1m33s

I doubt that the girl you mentioned will do her double loop, flip and lutz that way, since those jumps all take off with the skater's weight already over the landing leg so if she just pulls in, the left leg will automatically be in front of the right.  And once she gets the double loop down (and maybe double flip), it will probably give her new muscle memory that translates to her double toe and double salchow air positions as well.

[ARoo]

She crosses fine in her other doubles. Double flip is her most secure jump, double lutz follows. She struggles with the double loop and has for many years. I think she just developed "bad" (or maybe not) habits somewhere along the way and now can't get out of them.  I was really just curious about whether there are rules on in-air position and what that positioning really does to your overall jumping ability. I still think it's kind of ugly, but I guess not complaint-worthy.

I've noticed that a couple other older girls in our club tend to do axels with their feet side-by-side instead of crossed, too.  I wonder if there was another coach there before we arrived who didn't fix that technique (except I guess it doesn't really need to be fixed). 

Annyway, I just find all of this fascinating because as thick as the rule books are that USFS likes to write, I never feel like they answer my more nit picky questions (and I get bored watching and start thinking too much). 

[nicklaszlo]

It's about mechanics, aesthetics, and tradition, not rules.  I think this video shows how to develop a good cross for axels:

http://icoachskating.com/double-axel-lesson-developing-the-jump-michelle-leigh/

One coach taught me that I didn't need to cross for single axel.  He's right in principle, but I do try (unsuccessfully) to cross during my (underrotated) axels because I know it will help with higher jumps.

I think it would be interesting to try to jump crossed behind instead of crossed in front, just to create a unique look.  It should be difficult, but I think possible.

[Query]

Annyway, I just find all of this fascinating because as thick as the rule books are that USFS likes to write, I never feel like they answer my more nit picky questions

I feel that way too. It seems like most of their rules aren't about skating - they are about how to stay eligible to compete, and what you might owe USFS[A] money for.

In what follows, remember that I'm not all that knowledgeable. This is just what I have (tried to ) figure out, perhaps incorrectly.

The USFS[A] often lets skating standards be set by the ISU, of which the USFS[A] is a member organization (though some USFS[A] rules contradict and presumably over-ride ISU rules within the USFS[A]). So when USFS[A] doesn't have a standard, many people look at iSU standards. ISU also has a bunch of videos that explain a lot about aesthetic standards followed by the skating community. If you looked at those videos, I wouldn't be surprised if one of them discusses this issue.

In the United States, a lot of standards are unofficially set by classes offered by the PSA. In particular, AFAICT, PSA people try to interpret the ambiguous rules, then get feedback from people in the USFS[A] rules committee, revise accordingly, and repeat the process until the rules committee doesn't have too many objections. But PSA mostly exists to support coaches, so most PSA documents are not available to skaters who aren't also coaches.

Some of the standards that are set by the USFS[A] and ISU are in documents aimed at judges (e.g., marking sheets, scale of values, etc., and are not in written rules. And some are in "communications" that come out between editions of the rules.

What it boils down to is that if you want a sport with clear, easy to find rules, look elsewhere.

[Nate]

This happens on Salchows, Toe Loops, and Axels way more than Loops, Flips, and Lutzes because the take-offs are completely different.

In the first group, the jump takes off from the free side and has the skater lift the axis hip.  It requires a shift in weight prior to rotation.

In the second group, the jump takes off from the Axis side and stays on the axis side from take-off to landing.  It forces the skater to raise the free hip, so the skater only has to press the free foot down while keeping the hip in position.  The difference in take-off mechanics basically eliminates a lot of the probability of this happening on F/Lz/Lo, while it increases it on the T/S/A.

It's an issue of technique, which I don't want to fill the thread up with because I'd have to list all common/obvious issues that can lead to it.  I'd rather just see a video and base it off of that specifically, if possible.

I may have a video of one of my failed double sals that had this issue.  I'll look tomorrow and update if I find it with Video/Image Captures and further explanation.

[ARoo]

I can't post a video since we aren't really allowed to video anyone else. I only have videos because she happened to be skating behind my daughter. I would be in big trouble if I posted anything in public. I do understand your point about why it happens. My daughter's coach separates out the jumps that need to be "turned over" as very different from the ones where you are already set up when you go into the jump.

[Neverdull44]

Worry about what you can change, and that's probably not another skater's jumping.  As long as her coach is aware of the issue and trying to help her, then that's all that can be done.  Sometimes, there are clueless coaches.   Sometimes, skaters have longer learning curves. 

But, feet to the side is alot better than dreaded wrapping.  Wrapping the free leg is super dangerous.    One of our top skaters at the rink has a nasty wrap.  Unfortunately, she's also taking very bad skating falls on her jumps.  Her wrap is so bad, that it's causing her whole body to come off axis and tilt wildly in the jumps.  A year ago, she didn't do this on her doubles.  But, she changed coaches a few times and now has this wrap.     I want to say something, but I am keeping my mouth shut.   I'm sure her coach has to see the wrap!

[Nate]

Sorry. I incorrectly assumed the OP was talking about his or her skater. After reading over the post again I see its a third party observation.