Agonizing over which blades for DD

[DressmakingMomma]

Sorry this is so lengthy - I'm really struggling with what to do. Time for new boots again because this darn kids grows out of skates every 6 months. She is currently in the Ice Fly with MK pro. She loved the pro's at first but not as much now, so that brings me to my dilemma...

We're switching everything all at once - new skates and new coaches. The new coaches like ALL their kids in Gold Seals and would prefer she goes to those now even though she doesn't have her axel. BUT she loved the MK Pros only in the beginning when they were super curvy and less so after 4-5 sharpenings. If she stays with these coaches, after her axel she is going to have to move to the Gold Seal. She has skated in Ultima Mirage blades (hated them; toepick seemed low and blades felt flat), went to Coro Aces which were better. Her last skates we went with MK Pro at the skate tech's recommendation, since they more closely match Gold Seal profile (and her previous coach moved kids into Gold Seals as well).

Here are my options for now:
1. Stick with the MK Pro one more time until after her axel. Cheapest and we are already spending a fortune on boots, I know she likes the blade when it is new and at it's curviest.
2. Go with the Gold Seals. This is what the new coaches want but we have a budget. Footwork, glide, speed are her strengths - she's very muscular. She is a hesitant jumper and takes a long time to feel secure enough to go for it. I'm not sure if the Gold Seal will help her jump confidence or hinder it - I'm not a skater.
3. Go in-between the two budget wise with 420 Paramount Gold Seal profile. Least amount of money in the long run when factoring in sharpening costs. I'm concerned about how she is going to like stainless over carbon, she is sooo picky about that kind of stuff and there is no way to know until after we buy. I can't afford mistakes, once we buy that is what she is stuck with until the next growth spurt. I'm also not sure how the new coaches will like this blade.

One more factor - DD is particular so we send her skates to her sharpener and that costs $40 shipping each time plus 3-4 days without skates. He is so good at getting them just right for her - with grip but not too sharp and without wrecking the rocker. The Paramounts fix the sharpening problem.

[nicklaszlo]

Pick the cheapest option.  Your money is better spent on lessons.  Or maybe on finding a sharpener who does not flatten out blades.

[Loops]

Ugh, what a dilemma.  Iir your daughter is young and growing fast.  Feet included.  Honestly, I'd be inclined to damn the torpedoes and stick with Pros or Aces, whichever she likes better.  Even better if you can get them in the stainless format (have you considered Matrix versions?- I know they're 8' but my very good skate tech LOVES those...dunno how they compare prices wise to Paramounts tho).  If the coaches howl, I'd remind them that it's ultimately more $$ in their pockets for lessons and you'll consider it next year for the new skates.

Why are coaches putting kids in GS so young?  Are those blades really and truly that awesome, or is this just some marketing hype going on?  Seems like a lot of blade for singles, and a lot of money for rapidly growing feet.....

And also out of curiosity, does your skate tech know how Pros relate to GS profile wise? I'd love some more info on this.  I've been seeing some diagrams that suggest they are nearly identical (basically Pros are shown as a gold seal, without the solid toe plate, without side honing, and with maybe some pick differences ...need to go back and look).  BUT those same diagrams label the pro as a 8' rocker.....so I am skeptical. 

[AgnesNitt]

MK Pros appear to be essentially Gold Seals with a reduced toepick. Compare the bottom two rockers in the image below



I really think that manufacturers should publish their rockers so people can compare them. I think there are very few coaches who have any idea which blade is what. They just pick one that's famous/they've used/someone recommended.

You can't believe the stuff I find in online catalogs. I found a blade that was advertised as having the same rocker as the Coro Ace and the MK Pro. That's like saying the Prius is the same as the Tesla or a horse is the same as a zebra. It just doesn't make sense.

Oh, and Mr Edge put out a post that the 7 foot vs 8 foot rocker is a myth. I think his post is a little abrupt. If a 7 foot rocker is only referring to the glide part of the blade, that's fair. However, since none of the manufacturers publish the details of their blades' rockers, how can you tell?

[tstop4me]

Not sure how accurate those diagrams are.  MK website lists a 7 ft rocker for all their blades.  Wilson website lists a 7 ft rocker for Coronation Ace.  I assume this refers to the main portion of the rocker; they provide no details of the secondary rockers.  Mr. Edge's comment refers to the main rocker.  His conclusion is that in actual samples the main rocker does not have the geometry of a uniform arc of a circle with a constant radius.  Too bad his video doesn't play.  Question is whether this is by design or the result of poor quality control.

[AgnesNitt]

Not sure how accurate those diagrams are.  MK website lists a 7 ft rocker for all their blades.  Wilson website lists a 7 ft rocker for Coronation Ace.  I assume this refers to the main portion of the rocker; they provide no details of the secondary rockers.  Mr. Edge's comment refers to the main rocker.  His conclusion is that in actual samples the main rocker does not have the geometry of a uniform arc of a circle with a constant radius.  Too bad his video doesn't play.  Question is whether this is by design or the result of poor quality control.

Yep, I understand it's the glide rocker at the back. I've seen other drawing that show the Pro has a 7 foot glide rocker. As you'll note I said that Mr Edge was a little abrupt. You can't tell unless do a little math! And that's possible...ONLINE!

We can have a measurement fest to determine rockers. Go here: http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6925.0

[Christy]

Do Paramount offer a money back guarantee? I seem to remember reading somewhere that they did, and if so then that might be the way to go. Alternatively you could try the Matrix version, although I'm not sure how good they are with their money back guarantee.

That said in your position I'd stick with the MK Pros, or find the Paramount / Matrix equivalents to help with sharpening, and use the $$ saved for ice time and lessons. A coaches' opinion is only really helpful if it's specific to your daughter and her needs, and not just a blanket statement that everyone should have gold seals.

[DressmakingMomma]

When factoring in the cost of frequent sharpening (plus shipping the skates back and forth to our sharpener) the Paramount 420 ss version of the Gold Seal is actually cheaper then the MK Pro. So I guess I really have two more questions.

Is going to a Gold Seal profile going to help or hinder a kid in the process of learning their axel? The MOST important thing to me is putting her in the right equipment so that every minute on the ice counts. She works hard and I want to be sure we do everything to help that process.

Has anyone skated on both the Paramount and the Gold Seal - how much do their profiles match? Is there a huge difference in the feel between traditional carbon steel and Paramount's stainless steel? Has anyone moved to the Paramount and hated them? I'm not willing to spend the money on the 440 ss versions, so we're talking about the 420 ss version (roughly $400 for the Gold Seal profile).

Thanks for all your opinions - I really struggle with this stuff because it is so expensive and making wrong decisions seem to really hinder an already difficult enough sport.

[nicklaszlo]

I'll say it again:  put your money into lessons or ice time.  I am very skeptical of claims that blade type matters for lower level jumps like single axel.  The function of the blade in an axel is identical to the function of a blade in a waltz jump.  The difference between the two jumps is in the skater's body movement: timing, alignment, pull in, height...  the blade cannot do that for you.

Changing blades will make it harder to jump in the short run because the parts of the blade will be in slightly different places.  Some relearning is necessary.  Also, it is essential to get boots that fit well enough that they do not cause injury.

[Christy]

I haven't tried Paramounts, but did move from MK Pros to Matrix Legacies, purely to extend time between sharpenings, so carbon steel to stainless (and I believe the Legacies are 420 ss). It probably took around 4 hours to get used to the new blades, which were also 1/4" shorter. Personally I prefer the stainless blades but, like blade profiles, it really is personal preference.

Most of the kids I skate with tend to stick with Coro Ace / MK Pros until they progress well beyond the axel and it doesn't appear to be holding them back.

[tstop4me]

Well, another option to consider is the Riedell Aurora, discussed here:

http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6917.0

Unfortunately, no one here has any experience with it yet, but AgnesNitt is planning to do a review on it.  Advertised to be a Coronation Ace clone fabricated in 440C stainless steel.  Internet price is $224.  Riedell advertises a 60-day money back policy if you don't like it.

[DressmakingMomma]

Ooh, that is another good option, thank you tstop4me. Also, I might give the skate science people a call because it looks like even their beginning blade is made of stainless instead of carbon steel but still about the same price range as the MK Pro. I really would prefer the stainless as long as it won't negatively affect her skating, since that solves our sharpening problem.

Nick, I agree with the cheapest equipment available that is right for the job theory most of the time unless moving up can help speed the learning process. I have a friend who was hesitant to move her young skater to a Gold Seal, but she saw a drastic change in skating quality almost immediately and she landed her first double within a week of switching. So the $300 difference was well worth it according to that mom. I am leaning towards the cheaper, lower level blade since DD has a history of growing every six months and can always upgrade at the next spurt which will come too soon anyway.

Knowing when the optimal time is to step up to the next level is really hard. I'm also going to talk with the skate tech, he knows his stuff and has steered us in the right direction in the past.

[amy1984]

I am leaning towards the cheaper, lower level blade since DD has a history of growing every six months and can always upgrade at the next spurt which will come too soon anyway.

I agree with Nick to a point but then again, we all have our 'favs'.  At this point, if you know she likes the MP Pro, then go for it.  I wouldn't fiddle around too much because you say she's growing like a weed.  Changing skates, blades, and also growing can not only be a lot of changes at once, but it will also get really, really expensive, especially if she doesn't like something (you said she was picky) and super especially if you move up on price.  It's really easy to worry way too much about this stuff, and if your daughter is just working on an axel, I'm really sceptical how much it can help.  Seeing one skater have a break through on something on new blades doesn't mean that happens for everyone.  I'd just keep it simple at this point... you're buying new skates every six months and that in itself is already expensive.

[Doubletoe]

The MK Professional, MK Gold Star and Wilson Gold Seal have a very similar rocker shapes, so her axel takeoff and landing should feel pretty much the same on any of those 3 blades.  Having said that, the thing about getting new blades that will most help her land her axel is the fresh round new rocker (since it will help her roll up to the bottom pick on takeoff and get more height on the jump), and that will be pretty much the same on all 3 blades.  From that standpoint, I'd say keep her in MK Professionals for one more pair of blades unless her new coach is willing to pay the difference to get her Gold Seals.

For reference, the biggest difference between the Gold Seal and the other 2 blades is that the Gold Seal is flatter from the middle of the blade to the heel of the blade (due to the 8' rocker radius).  The other difference is that the Gold Seal is heavier, due to the solid base plate.  I've skated in Ultima Matrix Supreme blades and they felt just like the Gold Seal, which is the blade they are patterned after.  They are cheaper and much lighter weight than Gold Seals and don't need to be sharpened as often, though, due to the harder steel.  People seem to like them better than Paramounts.

[Loops]

The MK Professional, MK Gold Star and Wilson Gold Seal have a very similar rocker shapes.....

For reference, the biggest difference between the Gold Seal and the other 2 blades is that the Gold Seal is flatter from the middle of the blade to the heel of the blade (due to the 8' rocker radius).  The other difference is that the Gold Seal is heavier, due to the solid base plate.  I've skated in Ultima Matrix Supreme blades and they felt just like the Gold Seal, which is the blade they are patterned after.  They are cheaper and much lighter weight than Gold Seals and don't need to be sharpened as often, though, due to the harder steel.  People seem to like them better than Paramounts.

Awesome Doubletoe!!!! +GOE for tackling a question I've had for ages. Muchissimas gracias