Question about rocker "position" and blade length.

[dlbritton]

I need to start out with a non-skate experience from today. I hope this is an acceptable forum to post this in.

I went skiing today for the first time this season.

A sidebar that may apply to skate equipment as well. What a difference 7 CM can make. I started out the day on 170 CM long skis and could barely make a turn. I just muddled down a few times. I figured it was because it was the first day out plus I was on rental equipment including boots that were a hair too big.

Then, after lunch I swapped skis for a pair of the same ski but only 163 CM. OMG, it was like night and day. I could just about dance down the slopes. Played in the little bumps up top and was able to really carve some turns a little lower down. This was a difference of < 5% in length.

I wonder if a similar percentage difference in blade length can have as big an impact on skating. Sometimes I feel like the sweet spot on my skates is too far forward, but since this is my first pair of skates I don't have anything to compare too. Unfortunately in my area you can't really try out boots and blades (I doubt there are are many places you can). The skate sharpener commented I could fit an 11" blade rather than the 10 3/4" that I have. Would this make any difference in the position of the rocker? I am on Ultima Aspire blades with an 8' radius. Would a 7' shift the sweet spot towards the rear?

On spins I tend to rock up on the toe pick and stop the rotation. On back crossovers I also tend to scrape the toe picks on both feet. This may be from bad form and technique but as my experience with skis showed today it could be equipment as well.

Has anyone changed blade size slightly and seen a noticeable difference in the feel?

How can you tell where the sweet spot should fall?

[AgnesNitt]

I found that using gel tubes pushed my feet just enough forward that I couldn't ever feel comfortable on my rocker. I mean, that's like a 16th of an inch.
A better skater wouldn't be bothered but a weak skater like myself needed to be in exactly the right spot.

[streetsmart]

It is absolutely possible to feel even minute differences in blades.  I immediately felt taller when I switched from my no-more-sharpenings-left blades to new blades of the same type.  Definitely taller I swear. 

Also, my current skates are a tad too big, especially in the heel, and when I put them on I really pound my heel back and tie them up tight to try and keep my heel snug.  When I get on the ice I always feel off balance for a bit, and the more I skate I've realized something - my heel comes loose and my foot shifts slightly forward in the boot and voila, I get my balance.  The ball of my foot is probably not right over the sweet spot to start with, causing me to feel off balance, but then when my foot shifts forward (by what, a few millimeters?) it puts my foot in the right spot.

Having said all that, I think that the "sweet spot" is different for each type of blade, and what feels right to you probably depends on your feet and the boots and how the blades are mounted.  For example, could you push the blades further forward on your boots just a smidge?  I've always preferred longer blades, and never subtract the 1/4 inch "recommended" for blade length.   

[lutefisk]

For what it's worth, my old boots (Jackson Freestyles) are 9 1/2 and the Ultima Mirage blades are 10 3/4.  My new boots (same Jackson Freestyle model) are size 9 but I looked at the Aspire XP blades which came with them and they're 11! So the boots got shortened but the blades got longer. Go figure.  I've skated about 3 hours on the new equipment and at first the blades seemed a little spooky but towards the end of yesterday's outing I had 70 to 80% of my speed and skills back.  Either the sizing difference in this case is insignificant or I'm an insensitive brute (or both).  Also, maybe worth mentioning, Mike tweaked the new blades before he sharpened them--they came from the factory slightly warped.  So, take a straight edge and place it against the sides of your blades.  You may get a surprise.

[Casey]

For what it's worth, my old boots (Jackson Freestyles) are 9 1/2 and the Ultima Mirage blades are 10 3/4.  My new boots (same Jackson Freestyle model) are size 9 but I looked at the Aspire XP blades which came with them and they're 11! So the boots got shortened but the blades got longer. Go figure.

There are two schools of thought for blade/boot matching. One is to use the longest blade that will fit on the boot, with the front of the toe plate right up against the front of the sole and the back of the heel plate right up against the back of the heel, or sometimes even going past the back of the heel slightly. This is common (though unwise) practice for growing skaters, as the blade can be moved to larger boots when the child's feet grow larger. It's sometimes preferred by fully-grown people too, usually because they never grew any larger feet after getting their last pair of oversized blades, and don't want to adapt to another change.

A quote I found elsewhere, which I totally agree with:

"The general recommendation is that blades should be 1/4" shorter than the length of the boot's sole.

Because it's vital that the blade rocker is under the ball of your foot, the blades must be mounted with the toe plate flush against the front of the sole.

If your blades are too long and the heel plate extends beyond the boot heel, the heel rocker will be too far back, preventing you from doing back three turns, brackets, opposite edge spins and various jumps.

Too long also means you'll be prone to the "click of death" on back crossovers and spirals since too much blade will be on the ice. On toe-assisted jumps, the heel of the entry edge can catch and take you down. On edge jumps, the heel can clip you in the shin, especially on axels with the in-air axis change.

Too short blades cause trips and falls because the toe rocker is set too far forward. To reach it, the skater has to go past the ball of the foot, so spins are difficult (or impossible) to center and control on short blades. Edge jumps are always crappy because the "roll up" on takeoff brings the skater too far forward on the blade, causing the toe pick to drag. Toe assisted jumps aren't affected as much, assuming the skater can control the entry edge without dragging."

On my first skates, the fitter recommended that I "maximize my blade length" with a toe-to-heel blade, plus the boots were too large.  I ended up with 11.75" blades:



Bad idea.  Now I have 11" blades, with the heel plate being about 1/4" in from the back.

[Casey]

I wonder if a similar percentage difference in blade length can have as big an impact on skating.

Not exactly, because the full length of the blade is rarely in contact with the ice (only on deep edges).  However, what's similar in skate blades is the primary rocker profile (under the center/back of the blade where your weight sits most of the time).  Most blades are either 7' or 8' radius rockers.  This is a very small difference as well, but makes a big difference to the feel.  7' rockers make learning turns and stops and things easier as there is less blade in contact with the ice.  8' rockers distribute the weight across a little more blade, and that equates to better speed and stability.  Proper technique of shifting your weight to the front or rear of the blade on turns makes turns just as easy, but you have more room for error / wrong technique on 7' rocker blades, which is why they are usually recommended to beginners.  In the past figure blades existed with as low as 3' or 4' rockers that favored skaters wanting to be able to make precise marks on the ice in a smaller area, and speed skating blades are flat without any rocker at all.  7' rocker blades are like shorter skis, and 8' rocker blades are like longer skis...somewhat anyways.

Sometimes I feel like the sweet spot on my skates is too far forward, but since this is my first pair of skates I don't have anything to compare too.

Now we're talking about the overall profile of the blade.  In addition to the primary rocker, most skates have either one or two lower-radius rockers toward the front.  What kind of blades do you have?

This chart gives some visual idea of what I'm talking about:



A sharpener who is not careful will also modify the blade profile over time as well, which is why it's important to seek out a highly-recommended sharpener.  As for what works best for you it comes down to skill level and preference and what exactly you're working on.  Personally, I've found the best luck with Gold Seal's profile, though presently I have Pattern 99 profile blades.  The sweet spot should be farther back on the Pattern 99's, but I personally find it much more difficult to skate on.  I suspect this is actually because getting onto the 12" radius rocker is easier on Gold Seals as it comes farther back, whereas on the Pattern 99-profile blades I end up being on the much flatter 27" radius portion when trying to do the things that seem more difficult, since there's barely any room to be on the 12" rocker without dragging the toe pick.

The skate sharpener commented I could fit an 11" blade rather than the 10 3/4" that I have. Would this make any difference in the position of the rocker? I am on Ultima Aspire blades with an 8' radius. Would a 7' shift the sweet spot towards the rear?

See my previous post - I don't think this is a good idea, though again it depends on preference and blade profile.

On spins I tend to rock up on the toe pick and stop the rotation. On back crossovers I also tend to scrape the toe picks on both feet. This may be from bad form and technique but as my experience with skis showed today it could be equipment as well.

Back crossovers I'd blame on technique.  Your overall weight should be back far enough that it doesn't matter what blades you use or how long exactly they are (except for the increased "click of death" possibility with overly long blades, not fun!).  Each push should be off the center of the blade, but when you're practicing focus not on the center but the back to get it more correct - once you know you are too far back on the blade when you push off you can very easily shift things a little forward - the hardest part is not being too far forward.

Spins are a more delicate matter, and while ideal technique can make about any blade work, it's much harder to adjust.  I have the hardest time spinning on my current blades.  When I switched from Gold Stars (7' rocker, 11.75" long) to Gold Seals (8' rocker, 11" long) when I got better-fitting boots in the past, my spins and overall skating improved and I really liked the change (Gold Stars have the same rocker profile as Gold Seals I think, just the difference in the primary rocker radius).  When I ended up getting Pattern 99-profile Paramounts (8' rocker, 11" length), my spins got terrible.  This goes to show that blade length and primary rocker profile aren't everything!

Has anyone changed blade size slightly and seen a noticeable difference in the feel?

I think that a better idea than changing blade size, is to change blade types, keeping an ideal length blade for your boots.  And have well-fitting boots without any extra length.

How can you tell where the sweet spot should fall?

It's unfortunately a trial-and-error game where your wallet never wins.

[ChristyRN]

Were your feet measured? I couldn't get off my toepicks for the first 12 years I skated. Got my feet measured and I was in too-long boots. New ones put the sweet spot right under the ball of my foot instead of my toes. Makes a HUGE difference. I'm still unlearning/relearning how to skate. Can't undo 12 years in six months. 

[dlbritton]

I did get measured and was on the cusp of 8 1/2 or 9 Wides. I went for the 9's because they are actually a little bit snug, so the 8 1/2s would have been too tight width wise. If I take my boot and bang the toe into a wall to push my foot forward all the way , I cannot get my pinky finger behind my heel so the length is probably okay.

I did move my blades back 1/4" and it made a noticeable difference. But I discovered a different issue while doing this. The left sole is 3/16" longer than the right sole. I moved the blades back 1/4" from the toe, which put the right blade on the rear of the boot heel and the left blade 3/16" in front of the rear of the heel. Thinking more on it the blade should probably be mounted with the backs of the stanchions lined up so I may move the left blade back to line up with the heel. I have not had my blades permanently mounted yet so I can probably move the blade 1 more time if necessary.

As I said I can tell a difference. I definitely feel the sweet spot better and was able to make a 3 rotation 2 foot spin for the first time. I need to work up more entry speed for more revolutions but felt balanced for the first time. Outside 3 turns and mohawks felt better and back crossovers were definitely improved, no more toe pick dragging. The most noticeable effect was on inside 3 turns. I really felt a "grab" when I changed edges on the turn.

Excited to see how my progress goes now.

[streetsmart]

As far as I know, you ALWAYS line up the blade with the FRONT of the boot/sole.  You place the blade at the front tip of the sole, and go from there.  I would never do it from the heel. 

[AgnesNitt]

Prepare to be bored.

I got some new custom boots. I skated in them in my old blades which were 9 1/4 Pros which were too short--but OMG it was just perfect! I was doing things in that boot combination I had never been able to do, and I was learning them in minutes.  I sent the boots back to have the right boot rebuilt (too wide). When I got the boots back, I had new blades put on them ... 91/2 Pros to fit the new boot length. The rocker is now at the font of the ball of my foot. What a  nightmare. The first time I stepped on the ice in that combo I nearly fell flat on my face. (I will say, with that 91/2 blade back skating was amazingly easy)

There's some in boot things I can do to move my foot forward in the boot (wear a gel tube, which will fix a wide heel issue) and maybe glue in a patch of moleskin in the heel. I still think I'm going to have to have the blades moved back some -- or put the old blades on and sell the new ones.

It's not the end of the world, but I'm really earning my title as the Boot Whisperer at my rink.

PS. I'm keeping the old boots because I figured out how to get them to fit after I ordered the new ones and too late to cancel the order. I kept the blades on them because I wanted back up boots---and since they are stiff enough for doubles, I have a fantasy of putting Pattern 99s on them someday.

[Query]

First, as recognized by the other respondents, blade length is defined to be the distance from the back of the rear mounting plate to the front of the front mounting plate, measured in inches. It has nothing to do with the actual length of the blade, the length of your boot, or the length of your feet.

(An inch, for this purpose, is 2.54 cm, a legal definition used in Britain and USA, where most high level figure skating blades are made.)

As far as I know, you ALWAYS line up the blade with the FRONT of the boot/sole.  You place the blade at the front tip of the sole, and go from there.  I would never do it from the heel.

That is the most common way to do it. But it's not always anatomically optimal for a given skater. Especially with stock boots. (Full custom boots may have been deliberately built to the skater so it is as close to the optimal way as the boot maker can guess.)

The front of your boot doesn't much affect your skating. (Except: it determines how close your feet can come to each other without touching.) So there is no reason whatsoever that the front of the outsole on stock boots should optimally match the front of the front mounting plate.

However, a well respected fitter told me he almost always does line the front of the boot outsole up with the front of the front mounting plate, even for non-stock boots, because most other fitters would say he was incompetent if he didn't. That in turn is because everyone "knows" that is the way it is supposed to be done. He understands very well that it may be sub-optimal, for any given skater, but it is very important to his reputation that he be well respected.

The way I see it, if you jump, you should optimally position of the blade so that the toe pick is in the position that works best for you, and pick the length of the blade so that the front sweet spot(s) (the cusps where the rocker curvature changes) a little ahead of the ball of your foot. Expert sharpeners sometimes alter the position of the sweet spot(s) on the blade, so only the toe pick position matters much if you use such a sharpener.

Of course mounting position also affects the back of the tail - but some expert sharpeners may also grind off the tail length to match the skater's body. And tail length is probably less important to figure skating than toe pick position and sweet spot position.

[dlbritton]

A quote I found elsewhere, which I totally agree with:

"The general recommendation is that blades should be 1/4" shorter than the length of the boot's sole.

Because it's vital that the blade rocker is under the ball of your foot, the blades must be mounted with the toe plate flush against the front of the sole.

If your blades are too long and the heel plate extends beyond the boot heel, the heel rocker will be too far back, preventing you from doing back three turns, brackets, opposite edge spins and various jumps.

Too long also means you'll be prone to the "click of death" on back crossovers and spirals since too much blade will be on the ice. On toe-assisted jumps, the heel of the entry edge can catch and take you down. On edge jumps, the heel can clip you in the shin, especially on axels with the in-air axis change.

Too short blades cause trips and falls because the toe rocker is set too far forward. To reach it, the skater has to go past the ball of the foot, so spins are difficult (or impossible) to center and control on short blades. Edge jumps are always crappy because the "roll up" on takeoff brings the skater too far forward on the blade, causing the toe pick to drag. Toe assisted jumps aren't affected as much, assuming the skater can control the entry edge without dragging."

I certainly appreciate all of the feedback on this topic.

My blades are Ultima Aspire XP - 10 3/4" length with 8' rocker (from what I understand).
The sharpener said I could fit an 11" blade to my boot which would pretty much span the length of the sole from the tip to the back of the tail. Currently the blades are 1/4" shorter than the sole.

As I said in my previous reply I moved the blades back about 1/4" from the tip of the sole and it has made a significant difference. This partially tells me the boot may be a little long. In fact looking at the felt footbed , it is definitely longer than the foot beds in my ski boots, but the toe box is wider in my ski boots so I don't need as much length in the ski boot. I may have to go custom to get a shorter boot. (This can get to be an expensive sport, but then again I can easily drop $1200 on a pair of skis, boots and bindings even with a pro discount).

At first I worried about moving the blade back but realized as long as I don't dig the toe of the boot into the ice the effective length of my boot is now 1/4 inch shorter. I realize most blades are mounted flush with the tip of the boot but I wonder if that is from convention and tradition as much as anything else. If the boot is the perfect length that may work, but in my case shifting it back does make a difference.

Even though the tail of the blade is now a little further back I did not experience a click of death on back crossovers and in fact felt more stable gliding backwards which gives me better control on the cross.

I am not doing back 3 turns, brackets, etc yet so the heel rocker won't come into play as much.

[Casey]

My blades are Ultima Aspire XP - 10 3/4" length with 8' rocker (from what I understand).

Ahh, sorry but I have no knowledge of Jackson's blade profiles.

As I said in my previous reply I moved the blades back about 1/4" from the tip of the sole and it has made a significant difference. This partially tells me the boot may be a little long. In fact looking at the felt footbed , it is definitely longer than the foot beds in my ski boots, but the toe box is wider in my ski boots so I don't need as much length in the ski boot. I may have to go custom to get a shorter boot. (This can get to be an expensive sport, but then again I can easily drop $1200 on a pair of skis, boots and bindings even with a pro discount).

Speaking of footbeds - this is how I figured out my original skates were too big:


I cannot praise custom boots enough, as when I switched to custom Klingbeil's it was *glorious*.  Unfortunately Klingbeil is no more, but you may want to consider Avanta, which consists of most of the original Klingbeil staff so is essentially the "new" Klingbeil, and who I plan to get my next set from.  Harlick, SP Teri, and Reidell are other choices that have been around for longer and work well for many.  In my original skates with routine skating foot/ankle pains/problems and workarounds like gel pads were a regular part of skating.  In the current ones there are no such issues and the fit is fantastic.  I think investing in custom boots makes much more sense than investing in great blades, though I manage to justify both.   Ice time adds up too, and coaching even moreso.

At first I worried about moving the blade back but realized as long as I don't dig the toe of the boot into the ice the effective length of my boot is now 1/4 inch shorter. I realize most blades are mounted flush with the tip of the boot but I wonder if that is from convention and tradition as much as anything else. If the boot is the perfect length that may work, but in my case shifting it back does make a difference.

Yeah, for boots that are too long this makes sense to me. I like what Query had to say and if you think about it, your heel is (hopefully) always in the same position in the boot regardless of size, whereas the front of the boot is a more variable thing with stock boots.  Ideally the boot fitting is ideal, but if it's not moving the blade back may make sense, and to me, sounds a lot safer to experiment with than having a sharpener try to alter the profile.

When I did have the skates with the blades mounted flush against the heel, I did not have issues with back 3-turns, brackets, etc. so that shouldn't be an issue with the blade moved back.  Also because the overall blade length is not longer, there should be no increased click of death possibility from moving them back as there would be from getting longer blades.  Maybe ultimately you will need shorter blades!