Blades: Dance vs Synchro vs freestyle

[lutefisk]

OK, I'm a dummy and I ain't 'fraid to admit that.  What I'd like to know is this:  do Synchro blades split the difference between Dance and Freestyle?  I. E.:  are synchro blades the best "all arounder" choice for recreation skaters interested in testing and mild competition in the various figure skating diciplines?  It seems that Dance blades don't have enough toe picks to jump beyond half rotational jumps (correct me if that's not correct) and Freestyle blades, although due to their nice flattish long tails are like an aircraft carrier in terms of landability (might be a word) but are not the nimblest tool in the shed.  If that's actually more or less true, are Synchro blades the ones that split the difference and permit "dabblers" like myself the best of both worlds??? 

Alrighty, I've laid out the question.  Now I'm gonna set back and watch the sparks fly.

[icedancer]

No Sparks!

This is a great question actually!!

From what I've seen the Synchro blades are only slightly longer in the tail than the Dance blades so I doubt that most skaters would like them for all-around skating and freestyle although they might.

I have worn Dance Blades of various styles and lengths for over twenty years.  My first were called Wilson Dance and were basically a Majestic with the backs cut off (per Wilson Rep). I could jump and spin in them and they have a decent toe-pick. They were 4mm wide and I believe had a 7 inch rocker.  I loved those blades but I wore them until there was no more edge left to sharpen and they don't make them anymore.

Then I bought a pair of MK Dance - the thin kind - shorter with very blunted picks.  I could not do any spins or any types of jumps in these - even bunny hop and side hops, etc., because I always felt like I was going to slip with these.  Now I realize that elite ice-dancers do all sorts of jump-like movements in these and so maybe it was just me or maybe they retrofit their blades somehow and sharpen the picks so they can do this or maybe they are just young and talented I don't know.

Then I got the Super-Dance 99 - a Wilson blade with an 8 inch rocker and also thin (3mm) -.  These have almost decent picks and so didn't freak me out as much but still no "top pick" so toe-jumps couldn't work.  I could jump and spin and bit (waltz jumps) in these - I like them BUT they are shorter than the MK dance - so yeah, a bit freaky.

So thinking about eventually getting a Synchro blade which I think might work for me - wondering if there is one that is also slimline which I like...

I do think freestyle blades are WAY to long in the back end and don't see the point - I think Gold Seals are not quite so long...

[lutefisk]

No Sparks!

This is a great question actually!!

Thanks!

From what I've seen the Synchro blades are only slightly longer in the tail than the Dance blades so I doubt that most skaters would like them for all-around skating and freestyle although they might.

Most skaters have a love/hate relationship with either their boots or blades or both--so were does this put us in terms of a recommendation for that best all-round blade choice?  Is it better for rec skaters to continue skating on freestyle blades while dabbling with dance and MIF tests or would we be better served on Synchro blades?  The 64 x 10(6) question...

[Query]

I'm not certain this is the same on modern Ultima blades, but -

My Ultima Matrix 1 Dance and Synchro blade runners are almost identical - except that the Dance runners are thinline and have blunted toepicks, especially the drag pick at the back. My Synchro runners are very close to my Supreme (high level freestyle) blades - but the Synchro toe pick is blunted with respect to the Supreme.

(In addition, the Supreme spin rocker is flatter than that of the Dance and Synchro - but that might be because Mike Cunningham re-sharpened the Supremes for me - he said he wanted to give them a profile intermediate between what I was used to (MK Dance) and off-the-shelf Supremes.)

So Ultima Matrix 1 Synchro had picks in between those of Ultima Matrix 1 Dance and Ultima Matrix 1 Supremes. If Modern Ultima blades are the same, the same may hold for them. (OTOH, a more entry level freestyle blade might not have toe picks that stick out as far?)

P.S. You can't always judge what you can do based on what the top elite skaters can do with a given blade. Some hockey players with figure skating backgrounds can do the more basic figure skating jumps in hockey skates, with no toe picks.

Flexibility is also a big deal here. If you can point your toes enough, you can reach the toe picks on the Dance and Synchro blades. Though, on toe jumps, if you reach back all the way behind you (which creates a full toe point - try it in bare feet to see what I mean), you may GLIDE instead of stop the picking foot, on a Dance blade, especially if the Dance blade is somewhat worn - I've had this happen on worn MK Dance, which is why I am back on the Ultima blades.

Wilson "Coronation Dance blades" have a 7' rocker, but are described at Kinzie's Closet as ENTRY LEVEL Dance. I don't think they are the same as "Wilson Dance".

The problem with sharpening Dance picks for jumps is that they also don't stick out as far as Freestyle picks, so they don't produce the same shape as real freestyle picks even when sharpened. Plus only the very best figure skate sharpeners can sharpen picks well.

There is another approach. Some people grind off the back of freestyle blades if they find the tails too long. But again, get a top rate figure skate sharpener, because this isn't all that common.

Since you skate at Bowie, you are within an hours drive or less to Skater's Paradise. He (Mike Cunningham) charges more than other area fitters and sharpeners, but he can give you expert advice, especially on something this big. He is semi-retired, so get an appointment.

[Loops]

From my standpoint, Lutefisk I'd have to say yes, synchro blades could be seen as the love child between Dance and Free blades.  I was looking for exactly that love child when I bought blades last year.  I wound up in Vision Synchros.  I wanted a short tail for synchro and dance (and because I personally stepped on it all the time).  But I also wanted a pretty aggressive toepick, so traditional dance blades were out.

Here's my thoughts after a season.  The Vision Synchros do have a decent toepick, although the drag is "angled".  It feels shorter, and was quite an adjustment.  I can't use the drag to stop when going backwards anymore (probably a good thing, but annoying sometimes in Synchro when we lose a formation).  I have only just messed around with my jumps, and not tried lutz's or above, but except for a tendency to flat foot landings,  which is more likely user-error, I haven't had an issue.  Spins are great.

The shorter tails were less of an adjustment than I was expecting.  They're shorter than my coach's MK dance, and I'm not sure how they compare to CoroDance. I do still fall off the backs of them, although it never happened very often, and only really when we were experimenting with various lifts for last year's end of season show.  Let's be frank- I fell of the backs of normal length blades, too.  I have special skills.  I will admit that at times, and for certain things like power pulls, I am still conscious of their shortness, but overall I don't notice it.    Caveat: I do hope to jump for synchro this year, so I reserve the right to change my mind if need be.  In all honesty though, I haven't jumped for real for 25 years.....I doubt I'll notice much difference.

I do like my VS's, and would absolutely consider getting them again, especially if I was still in a non-freestyle scenario.  I would still consider them if I ever get to add freestyle back into the mix, but that would be with coach blessings.  Based on a recommendation given my by my fitter, I've been exploring the Ultima's, but the pick situation on their synchro blade does NOT excite me.  To convert me, they'd need to fix that.

[fsk8r]

I skate in Ultima Synchro blades for dance and synchro and they are pretty good for most things you'd want to do in freestyle. I don't tend to jump too much in them, but that's not because of the short tail, it's because I'm scared of going backwards in the boots because of the low cut backs (not that I should have my weight carrying on backwards when landing jumps!). Blade wise, the toe pick is just the same as those on my Ultima Legacy which I use for freestyle so there's no difference there. The only real difference is the shorter tail so I don't tread on them.
And interestingly I've never fallen backwards off my blade when on the synchro ones, I do dig the heel into the ice when on the freestyle ones as I forget how much longer it is and therefore that I need to lift my leg and turn my foot out more!

[Loops]

I skate in Ultima Synchro blades for dance and synchro and they are pretty good for most things you'd want to do in freestyle...[snip]..the toe pick is just the same as those on my Ultima Legacy.....

Interesting.  I'm curious, are you on the old synchro blades (UB60 now discontinued) or the Finesse (UB55)??  It's the Finesse that I was referring to above.

[fsk8r]

Interesting.  I'm curious, are you on the old synchro blades (UB60 now discontinued) or the Finesse (UB55)??  It's the Finesse that I was referring to above.

I'm on what was called Ultima Synchro, they are quite possibly the ones which are now discontinued as I've had the boots and blades about 5 or 6 years now (and am now starting to think about replacements).

[Loops]

I'm on what was called Ultima Synchro, they are quite possibly the ones which are now discontinued as I've had the boots and blades about 5 or 6 years now (and am now starting to think about replacements).

Hmmm.  The photos on the Finesse (which is the one they're replacing the Synchro with), don't have an inspiring pick......or it's a bad photo.  If you're in the market, when you do eventually go look, I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts.

If they are dumbing down the toepick, that's a shame.  I do like the "hybrid" blade.

[fsk8r]

Hmmm.  The photos on the Finesse (which is the one they're replacing the Synchro with), don't have an inspiring pick......or it's a bad photo.  If you're in the market, when you do eventually go look, I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts.

If they are dumbing down the toepick, that's a shame.  I do like the "hybrid" blade.

I went look after you said and I'm disappointed if they've taken away the synchro blade. It was perfect for me. I might have to see if I can hunt down a replacement set. Thankfully they've got more boot options that they had when I originally got mine as I might go slightly softer, but the Finesse look like I'll break them down pretty quickly doing sit spins!

[lutefisk]

One difference between the MK Vision and the Ultima Finesse is the rocker.  Visions are 7' while Finesse blades are 8'.  How does that play out in terms of how spooky or forgiving the blades are?

[Loops]

Finesse are SOFT boots.  I could have creased them in the store.  Easily. I'm tall, but not that big but have always been hard on my skates. Hopefully as time moves on there will be more synchro blade options out there.  I'm very happy with my Vision Synchros, but my fitter showed me several gnarly blades made by MK and Wilson...their quality control is not.  But I guess that's common knowledge on the streets.  He has lots of great things to say about the Ultima's, so despite the 8' rocker (which would probably be OK after adjustment period) they're on the list for the next pair, which I hope is several years down the road. 

[Loops]

One difference between the MK Vision and the Ultima Finesse is the rocker.  Visions are 7' while Finesse blades are 8'.  How does that play out in terms of how spooky or forgiving the blades are?

We cross posted.  I've never skated on an 8' rocker, so I can't speak from any kind of experience on that.  My suspicion though, and anyone should feel free to correct me if my guess is wrong, is that after an adjustment period, it'd be fine.  I suspect the adjustment would have more to do with finding the sweet spot than anything else.  The difference in maneuverability might be noticeable to someone skating at the National/World level, but for someone like me (working on pre-silver dances, if doing free, would be getting my axel back and working on Novice, patching on 3rd test) I don't think it'd make that much of a difference. 

I guess the caveat would be that some people love an 8' rocker and others prefer a 7'.  But you gotta try it to know, and dance aside, most elite skaters seem to be on 8'.

ETA: but you're talking recreation, so I doubt the difference would be that noticeable.  And as I understand it, that's the idea behind why Ultima blades are all 8' rockers (dunno about their dance) most people eventually switch up. 

[lutefisk]

ETA: but you're talking recreation, so I doubt the difference would be that noticeable.  And as I understand it, that's the idea behind why Ultima blades are all 8' rockers (dunno about their dance) most people eventually switch up.
[/quote]

The Ultima dance blades (UB115) are also 8 footers:  http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?product=1a2b3c4d5ewsYeo6VVjGm/S5tqIuOfw1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E

[Loops]

The Ultima dance blades (UB115) are also 8 footers:  http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?product=1a2b3c4d5ewsYeo6VVjGm/S5tqIuOfw1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E

[scratches head]  I looked that up after posting and saw it too.  It seems to run counter to logic.  So, at the end o f the day, either there isn't THAT big a difference and MK is giving away a LOT of free blades to the top flight dancers, or there is a big difference and Ultima missed the design boat on that one.

Anyone?

[taka]

Coronation dance toe picks look identical to my old coronation aces, in fact the only noticeable difference between the 2 is the shorter tail on the dance blades. Backwards toe pick stopping and "Ahhh, too fast" emergency slowing down (using toepicks mid dance while going backwards) are perfectly possible, much to my coach's dispair! Not tried much proper jumping on them but they are fine for assorted toe steps (including half rotation hops).

[fsk8r]

 I think possibly that the difference between 8ft and 7ft is a bit of a misdirection. Most of the blades use different rockers along the length of the blade (otherwise there wouldn't be a sweet spot) and it's the rocker around the sweet spot which determines the stability. I used to skate in ISE Sterling blades which I believe are 8ft rockers. My coach told me to ditch those for freestyle as they were too flat at the sweet spot so I didn't have anywhere to rock forward before hitting the toepick and this was affecting my jump technique.

Loops - I think you're probably onto something with the free blades being given away by MK. I know a dance coach who got a free pair from MK, so I can well imagine the top skaters are all getting them free.

[lutefisk]

At the risk of appearing ever more ignorant, who makes "ISE" blades?  I've not heard of that brand.  I see that an on-line outfit called Skate-Mart International offers that company's line of blades but I haven't tripped over the ISE manufacture's site (assuming there is one). 

[Loops]

I think possibly that the difference between 8ft and 7ft is a bit of a misdirection. Most of the blades use different rockers along the length of the blade (otherwise there wouldn't be a sweet spot) and it's the rocker around the sweet spot which determines the stability.

For a while I've kinda suspected that ^^ has more to do with the stability/maneuverability than the size of the rocker.  How different are these blades at the sweetspot? Picking the MK line, are all the blades an identical shape, (so Prof same profile as a Phantom) but with different pick and honing/tapering/dovetailing combinations?  I know the dance model is narrower than the others, too although MK's website is non-informative on that....

I suspect this conversation has been had somewhere on here before though....but maybe not.  Will search when I have a child-free moment.

I do think that MK/Wilson are giving away a LOT of free blades.  With the competition from Ultima and Riedell, they may feel obligated so as to keep their market.  I have also heard from a trustworthy source that at least the Russian and French team coaches dictate the blade choice- so all Russians and French skate on Gold Seals, the skaters themselves get no say in the matter. Seems messed up to me, but whatever. This is corroborated by things I was told here in France when I got skates last year, so I do believe it.

[Bill_S]

Well, just for grins, I ordered some 10-1/2" Ultima Synchro blades from Kinzie's Closet.

On clearance for $69, I thought that the combination of 8' rocker and shorter length might be fun to try. I wouldn't have too much invested in the experiment.

If or when I ever mount them, then I'll have some impressions to share.

[lutefisk]

Well, just for grins, I ordered some 10-1/2" Ultima Synchro blades from Kinzie's Closet.

On clearance for $69, I thought that the combination of 8' rocker and shorter length might be fun to try. I wouldn't have too much invested in the experiment.

If or when I ever mount them, then I'll have some impressions to share.

Sounds like an interesting experiment!  Details when you have them.  In terms of size, did you order the same size as your Freestyle blades?

[Bill_S]

I ordered the same size as my current Coronation Aces.

I made an assumption that the nominal blade size is the mount length at the boot. My current Aces are stamped 10-1/2, and a tape measure shows them to be exactly that...



A safe assumption, I hope.

[fsk8r]

At the risk of appearing ever more ignorant, who makes "ISE" blades?  I've not heard of that brand.  I see that an on-line outfit called Skate-Mart International offers that company's line of blades but I haven't tripped over the ISE manufacture's site (assuming there is one).

I think they're now owned by Jerry's. But I first came across them at Cyclone Taylor in Canada.

[icedancer]

Well, just for grins, I ordered some 10-1/2" Ultima Synchro blades from Kinzie's Closet.

On clearance for $69, I thought that the combination of 8' rocker and shorter length might be fun to try. I wouldn't have too much invested in the experiment.

If or when I ever mount them, then I'll have some impressions to share.

I am going to have to do this!  That's the other thing about synchro blades is that they are WAY cheaper than dance blades - you can often get them on deals like this but even without the deals they are cheaper.

I think this is because they are marketing to whole teams or something.

[Loops]

I am going to have to do this!  That's the other thing about synchro blades is that they are WAY cheaper than dance blades - you can often get them on deals like this but even without the deals they are cheaper.

I think this is because they are marketing to whole teams or something.

I was wondering about the price differential.  MK lists the Vision Synchros as "beginner" blades, while the Vision is in "intermediate" with the Professional.  I've heard the hypothesis about marketing to whole teams, but how much of a market is there for Synchro blades?  Do teams force their skaters to get the same blade? I see a lot of teams here in France skating on Freestyle blades.  Granted these are the recreational teams, based out of Freestyle clubs; Division A Jr and Sr teams could very well be different- they go to different competitions though, so I don't get to see.

Everyone except Wilson seems to have one dedicated synchro blade, but just one.  Granted, there's a decent market for dance blades, but likewise not a whole lot of variety available-again, each maker has one, except Wilson that has the CoroDance and the Superdance.   And I've seen the the CoroDance marketed as a synchro blade.

Yet we are having this conversation- I can't be the only one in the world who wants what amounts to a shortened freestyle blade, since many synchro teams do jump.  But maybe my choice and preferences are misguided.

Actually, Icedancer....iir, you skate on the superdance. How much of a toepick is there (relative to the MKDance or the CoroDance....I know those two)?  Could you jump if you wanted?