Do we really need a toe pick?

[johnallocca]

I really believed that one couldn't do jumps without a toe pick. I came across this video by accident. There are many like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9mvwZvnQmk

John

[fsk8r]

They are PIC skates. They're not regular inlines. The wheels are rockered like a figure blade. And they use a toe stop like other rollerskates in the same way that figure skates use the toe pick.

[Query]

I think most of the basic (low rotation) jumps were developed before toe picks existed.

The question isn't just whether it can be done, but whether it is easier. The same applies to forward turns (e.g., 3-turns), spins, and pivots, all of which can take advantage of the presence of the pick.

As well as how well you could meet the judged standards of figure skating. There are moves where everybody expects you to use the toe pick.

Now if you could push a button to make the toe pick extend...

[Bill_S]

There are edge jumps that don't require the use of toe picks to get into the air, but I'd hate to be that person if I landed a bit forward if there was no toe pick. You'd rotate right on down onto your face.

I use PIC skates and have done jumps and spins on them. Because I wanted to skate outdoors and not destroy soft indoor wheels, I bought a pair of typical rollerblades equipped with only a heel stop. Trying to do some figure skating moves, I face-planted within 5 minutes without the toe stop. On concrete. That hurt mightily, and I never used them again.

I once had a coach who did a spin on hockey skates, but although he was an expert skater, the spin was very weak on the hockey skates.

[sarahspins]

The question isn't just whether it can be done, but whether it is easier. The same applies to forward turns (e.g., 3-turns), spins, and pivots, all of which can take advantage of the presence of the pick.

There was for a while a former skating parent who wore hockey skates and was working on MITF patterns, some of which were from intermediate.  She could do brackets forwards and backwards in hockey skates, double 3's, etc.  Learning turns without a toepick isn't much different from what skaters experienced learning them for figures - it just takes more edge control, but without a drag pick, the picks might as well not be there anyways, apart from being there for looks.  Without jumping in the equation, the only other element to suffer significantly would be one foot spins.

My advice John, is that if you just want to skate, find a pair of hockey skates that will work well for your feet, and go from there.  It's very common for hockey skaters to modify (or have modified by someone who knows how to do it, rather) the profile of their blades, so there is some possibility there to experiment to find something that feels more like a figure blade would.  You would be able to skate for enjoyment, work on MITF patterns, learn dances, etc.  Reinventing the wheel so to speak isn't going to ultimately accomplish much, since skaters with an orthopedic limitation like yours are going to be in the minority, and what works for you may not really apply the same to anyone else.

Also, since no one really mentioned it, on the pic skates, the "toe pick" stop is round (so you can rotate/adjust it as it wears down), and kind of looks like a small wheel - it would be really easy to mistake that in video for another wheel when it isn't one.

[Query]

I'm sure not an expert in jumps, but in edge jumps, the blade normally rolls to the toe before leaving the ice, and contacts the ice on the toe before going back to the edge. Ideally, even in a Bunny Hop or Waltz Jump.

I'm not sure if a figure skating judge might penalize you for not using the toe in edge jumps, but I assume so.

(The difference between edged and toe jumps is that in toe jumps, a second foot pushes off the ice on the toe at the same time as the foot gliding on the edge, partly to provide extra lift. In other words, AFAIK, toe jumps are two foot jumps, whereas edge jumps are one foot jumps. However - I'm not sure that split jumps have to use the toes.)

[PhysicsOnIce]

I'm sure not an expert in jumps, but in edge jumps, the blade normally rolls to the toe before leaving the ice, and contacts the ice on the toe before going back to the edge. Ideally, even in a Bunny Hop or Waltz Jump.

I'm not sure if a figure skating judge might penalize you for not using the toe in edge jumps, but I assume so.

(The difference between edged and toe jumps is that in toe jumps, a second foot pushes off the ice on the toe at the same time as the foot gliding on the edge, partly to provide extra lift. In other words, AFAIK, toe jumps are two foot jumps, whereas edge jumps are one foot jumps. However - I'm not sure that split jumps have to use the toes.)

I have to disagree with you on the "toe jumps are two foot jumps" statement. In all technicality two footing your take off is/can be equally as penalized as a two footed landed, and can cost you severly in terms of air time and rotation (specially on the flip and lutz), as well as GoE. The IJS speficially states that "Starting or landing on two feet in a jump" results in a GoE of  -2.   In all toe jumps your free leg should pass forward leaving the ice, well before your skating foot leaves the ice. The toe is really the only jump which should/can be two footed and even then it is not exactly two footed your weight is actually positioned almost completely on the skating side as your "free" leg flicks of the heel. For reference here is a slow mo of Yuna Kim doing her 3lt-3t combo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxZsB3QUU60 . At 0:11 you clearly see that her free leg is actually already off the ice while her skating leg is still in contact. Full take off does not occur until somewhere between 0.11 and 0.12  on the 3Lz on the other hand the 3T at 0:29 you can see what I mean about flicking your heel off the ice. Full take off occurs almost simultaneously, and for reference both jumps are IJS clean if not prefect.

Sorry to be picky but this is a rather common error and can cost you greatly if you want to develop your jump beyond singles.

[Query]

Ouch. You are right.  I really wasn't thinking about what I was saying when I used the words"two foot jump". That wasn't a nit pick, that was a major mis-statement.

I assume most skaters do push off with both feet (at least that's what I, an eternal novice, was taught) - but not at the same time.

And that statement also took attention away from the point I was trying to make, that "edge jumps" use the toe pick too.

The jerk that all figure skaters get on landing (including in the video) because they land on the toe still looks ungraceful to me. It would look smoother if they landed without the toe pick, even if they lost a little distance.

I had a problem trying to do toe loops. Only my drag pick (the one farthest back) was still sharp. (When I trimmed the toe pick, because I am running out of steel on my blades, I didn't pay any attention to creating sharp corners on the other teeth.) When I planted the toe-foot on the ice as far back as my coach wanted, all the picks came into play (in sequence), so I skidded on the toe pick while taking off. It hadn't occurred to me that anything but the drag pick mattered, but reaching far back changes everything.

The thing is, I get the original poster's attitude. Except for the brief times when you are using them, toe picks are a major nuisance. And if we have to have them, why is it considered bad to push with them? It's just one more way that figure skating is hard for people with limited flexibility.

[icedancer]

YOu need that drag pick to keep yourself from face-planting.  If anyone doubts this try skating on a figure blade and you will see why (immediately face-plant or feel like it).

The other toe picks - for the jumps.

I did know a guy who had been a hockey skater learning to ice-dance.  He was deathly afraid of the picks.  He got a pair of figure skates eventually and blades that had NO picks on them (someone had filed them off) and used them for a while until he got used to the flatter blade.  Eventually he got dance blades and had BEAUTIFUL edges.

[JSM]

And that statement also took attention away from the point I was trying to make, that "edge jumps" use the toe pick too.

The jerk that all figure skaters get on landing (including in the video) because they land on the toe still looks ungraceful to me. It would look smoother if they landed without the toe pick, even if they lost a little distance.

I had a problem trying to do toe loops. Only my drag pick (the one farthest back) was still sharp. (When I trimmed the toe pick, because I am running out of steel on my blades, I didn't pay any attention to creating sharp corners on the other teeth.) When I planted the toe-foot on the ice as far back as my coach wanted, all the picks came into play (in sequence), so I skidded on the toe pick while taking off. It hadn't occurred to me that anything but the drag pick mattered, but reaching far back changes everything.

The thing is, I get the original poster's attitude. Except for the brief times when you are using them, toe picks are a major nuisance. And if we have to have them, why is it considered bad to push with them? It's just one more way that figure skating is hard for people with limited flexibility.

You do use toe picks on both edge and toe jumps, yes.

However, toe picks are small and non-intrusive for beginner skaters for a reason - beginner skaters do not yet know how to properly use the blade.  Once you do, then toe picks are not a nuisance at all, but a tool.  There is no shame in not knowing how to use a toe pick, but the skater has to know their skill level before trying moves that are too advanced.

PS - You don't sharpen toe picks.

[PhysicsOnIce]

Ouch. You are right.  I really wasn't thinking about what I was saying when I used the words"two foot jump". That wasn't a nit pick, that was a major mis-statement.

I assume most skaters do push off with both feet (at least that's what I, an eternal novice, was taught) - but not at the same time.

And that statement also took attention away from the point I was trying to make, that "edge jumps" use the toe pick too.

The jerk that all figure skaters get on landing (including in the video) because they land on the toe still looks ungraceful to me. It would look smoother if they landed without the toe pick, even if they lost a little distance.

I had a problem trying to do toe loops. Only my drag pick (the one farthest back) was still sharp. (When I trimmed the toe pick, because I am running out of steel on my blades, I didn't pay any attention to creating sharp corners on the other teeth.) When I planted the toe-foot on the ice as far back as my coach wanted, all the picks came into play (in sequence), so I skidded on the toe pick while taking off. It hadn't occurred to me that anything but the drag pick mattered, but reaching far back changes everything.

The thing is, I get the original poster's attitude. Except for the brief times when you are using them, toe picks are a major nuisance. And if we have to have them, why is it considered bad to push with them? It's just one more way that figure skating is hard for people with limited flexibility.

Yes, Of Course "Edge Jumps" do still use the toe pick, but the main reason why they are different than toe jumps is not because they are one or two foot take offs, but rather where/how you generate angular momentum.  As you yourself have experienced, the toe pick allows you to get more contact on the ice, which is why generally skaters generate more high on toe jumps than edge jumps.

I am not certain what you are referring to as the "Jerk"  but the use of a toe pick on a landing is a matter of biomechanics. If you land flat footed you are causing your body to absorb instantenously a force equal to 9 times your body, which is an impact that is absorbed by your knees and hips alone. If you land toe-heel, you are allowing your body to absorb the impact force at a slower rate (although we are talking microseconds) through several of your lower body joints primarly your toes, ankles, knees and hips.  This is the reason why if you land toe-heel it is considered softer, since you generate less sounds because of the progression of the impact.  This is the same thing that occurs in Ballet and why Ballerinas are trained to land toe-heel.

Also, Dear God please do not sharpen/grind your drag(or anyother ) toe pick... If your blades are running out of steel, you need new blades.  If you are grinding away at your drag toe pick, you are destroying the toe pick, which will make spins, turns and any edge jump virtually imposisble. Brut force might save your toe assisted jumps.

Furthermore, if your toe picks are a major nuisance for you then your blade is too advanced for you. You need to know how to properly use and control your blade before advancing to top level blades. A huge toe rack for beginners, can cause major technique problems specially on toe assisted jumps since it allows you to pick more randomly and still get away with it when doing singles.

Please, don't feel offended by my replies, I am simply trying to explain why a toe pick is actually necessary and soundly based on both physics and biomechanics.

[alejeather]

I think that jerk on landing is caused by improper weight transfer of toe to heel on landing. Maybe improper is too strong of a word--perhaps imperfect is better. In the video at the top of the thread, it looks like the skater landed with his weight a little too far forward and so he rocked up onto his toe stop, which kept him from face-planting and then rolled back onto the heel. I think you see the same thing on the ice sometimes, when a skater lands and almost grips the ice with the toe pick before flowing backwards out of the jump. In a perfect jump the skater transfers the weight smoothly from toe to heel with no jerk and they'll get better flow out of the jump because they haven't killed their momentum by pitching forward.

[irenar5]

There is a tremendous amount of rotational energy that is generated in a double axel or a triple jump.  This energy forces you to keep rotating, which means you would fall out to the non-landing side if you don't stop the rotation during the landing.  Skaters have to exert a lot of control to keep over the landing side, and one of those control methods is to keep your weight forward on the landing, so that you stop the rotation.  This skater looked like he overcorrected a bit. 

In addition to all the other reasons mentioned above, landing on the toe pick allows you a greater chance of correcting a landing.  You might be slightly underrotated, but can still squeak out a landing.  Underrotated jumps that are flat footedly landed would be a sure fall.  And who wants to smack down needlessly with 9 times your weight??  :-)

[davincisop]

There's a group at my rink called the X-Treme Freestylers, who are guys (and I think a few girls though not many) who are using hockey skates essentially to figure skate. They do jumps and spins, but on hockey skates, and throw in some breakdancing and hip hop.

I saw one guy who is the best of the bunch execute a sit spin, and for hockey skates quite a darn good one, and then he was throwing axels. Fully rotated but not pretty since he lacked the toe pick at the front to help get himself up in the air.

So it can be done, it's just not very pretty....

[Query]

PS - You don't sharpen toe picks.

Some of the experts do - and it is a big part of lowering the toe pick if you have used up too much of the metal. Just use a (very thin) flat stone, because you don't want a hollow grind, just sharp corners. BTW, one big difference between Jackson Ultima blades, and MK/Wilson blades is that Jackson makes the toe pick corners VERY sharp - I wonder how much difference that makes.

I saw one guy who is the best of the bunch execute a sit spin, and for hockey skates quite a darn good one, and then he was throwing axels.

Does he have figure skates too, or did he used to?

[JSM]

Some of the experts do - and it is a big part of lowering the toe pick if you have used up too much of the metal. Just use a (very thin) flat stone, because you don't want a hollow grind, just sharp corners. BTW, one big difference between Jackson Ultima blades, and MK/Wilson blades is that Jackson makes the toe pick corners VERY sharp - I wonder how much difference that makes.

I'm not sure if that is considered 'sharpening' a toe pick - rather, the drag pick can be ground down to compensate for the loss of metal.  My own sharpener/tech has done that for me.  But that's not that same thing.

[AgnesNitt]

My skate tech 'trims' my toe pick just a tiny bit.
This is totally different than taking off the toepick. It's trimmed just enough to make the pick a tiny bit more off the ice. Originally this started because I was doing figures, and not it's just because I'm used to it.

[Query]

Yes - but - if you just trim it down in the simplest way, by holding a grinding stone or wheel against the tooth, you would have dull corners across that tooth, and the toe pick wouldn't really work.

You have to make sure the corner is still sharp to avoid gliding on the pick instead of stopping. My problem was, I only did that to the drag pick, because I thought that was all that mattered. But once I started reaching far back for my dubious toe loops, the other teeth came into play.

Should I use another word than "sharpen" for making those pick tooth corners sharp (i.e., abrupt) rather than rounded? Is that word confusing, because the pick teeth have no hollow, and the angle isn't acute?

AFAIK, professional sharpeners only need to re-sharpen the pick tooth corners sharp after they trim the drag pick or other picks, not after every sharpening. Which maybe only occurs once or twice in the life of the blade (less expert sharpeners never do it - they just throw out the blade when the roll distance from the sweet spot to the pick gets too small), because picks don't get as much wear as the edges do.

I still wonder if those extra sharp Jackson picks matter. (I'm talking about Jackson Ultima Matrix blades - haven't looked carefully at their other blades.)