Will All Levels be Judged under IJS Soon?

[icefrog]

In the "who's going to regionals?" thread someone mentioned Pacific Northwest Regionals having all levels IJS even no-test. Is this the future of club competitions too? I think it would make it very intresting for the younger/lower level skaters and a good learning experience for them. On the flip side isn't it very very expensive to use the system?? So I can see both sides competing no-test through pre-juv at a club comp is already expensive with 6.0, but it would be really fun to use IJS I think anyway.

[tazsk8s]

I kind of hope not, at least, not unless they make some major modifications to the lower levels.  IMO, there's already a loss of focus on newer skaters getting a good solid grasp of basic spin and spiral positions.  When skate school kids who can't even do a regular spiral yet are trying to grab their blades, it's too much.  And the wobbly, ugly attempts at contortion spins on a no-test kid?  No thanks.

[blue111moon]

The IJS system as it currently stands doesn't lend itself to judging on the lowest levels.  Half-jumps are not recognized at all and the definitions of spins, spirals and step sequences assume profiency to begin with.

I've experienced IJS judging at the pre-bronze and bronze adult levels and while it's fun, it isn't exactly encouraging. 

Not to mention the fact that IJS is not cost effective since it doubles the amount of ice time and officials required.  If the purose of including non-qualifying events in a Regional competition is to increase revenue for the host club,  using IJS for the non-qualifying events will pretty much kill that.

[Isk8NYC]

I haven't heard of IJS being used at the lowest levels of competition, I have heard that judges are expecting "IJS-like" programs in both Synchro and the lower freeskate levels.  So we'll be seeing more difficult jumps at lower levels and combination spins.

While I like the idea of reducing the subjectivity of judging, I think it will discourage lower-level skaters from wanting to enter competitions outside of Basic Skills and Test Track events. 

[twokidsskatemom]

The IJS system as it currently stands doesn't lend itself to judging on the lowest levels.  Half-jumps are not recognized at all and the definitions of spins, spirals and step sequences assume profiency to begin with.

I've experienced IJS judging at the pre-bronze and bronze adult levels and while it's fun, it isn't exactly encouraging. 

Not to mention the fact that IJS is not cost effective since it doubles the amount of ice time and officials required.  If the purose of including non-qualifying events in a Regional competition is to increase revenue for the host club,  using IJS for the non-qualifying events will pretty much kill that.

IJS really doesnt use more ice time,and for the most part the judges are there anyway.They use less judges at lower levels ie 3 or 4  at our NWP regionals, The entry fee was the same at all levels.
I didnt really notice non test. but it seemed to be fine at pre pre and above.Its modified, no levels for spins but postive GOE when warrented.Its nice as the kids can see what they really need to work on.

[blue111moon]

IJS really doesnt use more ice time,and for the most part the judges are there anyway.

All the studies done show that IJS events use twice the ice time needed for 6.0 events, and even more when the paper version is used, rather than the mini-system.  Under 6.0 scoring, the referee generally figures the event time as the program duration plus 30 seconds (for the skater to get on and off the ice and for the judges to write down their marks) multiplied by the number of skaters then adding in the warm-up time.  Under IJS, the standard allotment is 2:00 between skaters to give the tech panel time to agree on the lelements and levels and communicate them to the judges, then allow the judges to give GOEs for all of them.

A Pre Pre Freeskating program has a maximum time of 1:40.  Add in 30 seconds and it's now 2:10 per skater under 6.0.  Under IJS, the same event takes 3:40 per skater (I know a couple of referees who would scale that back to 3 or 3:30 and take the risk of running late but they get rated on how well the competition runs on time afterward so it's a point of pride to keep to the schedule). With 10 skaters in an event, that's a difference of 12 to 15 minutes per event.  With an average of 50 events ina non-qual competition, running all of those under IJS would take a lot more ice time than under 6.0. 

I know this first-hand because my club has already done the homework on this.  For most clubs b eing required to run all events under IJS would nmake hosting the competition cost-prohibitive.

[twokidsskatemom]

All the studies done show that IJS events use twice the ice time needed for 6.0 events, and even more when the paper version is used, rather than the mini-system.  Under 6.0 scoring, the referee generally figures the event time as the program duration plus 30 seconds (for the skater to get on and off the ice and for the judges to write down their marks) multiplied by the number of skaters then adding in the warm-up time.  Under IJS, the standard allotment is 2:00 between skaters to give the tech panel time to agree on the lelements and levels and communicate them to the judges, then allow the judges to give GOEs for all of them.

A Pre Pre Freeskating program has a maximum time of 1:40.  Add in 30 seconds and it's now 2:10 per skater under 6.0.  Under IJS, the same event takes 3:40 per skater (I know a couple of referees who would scale that back to 3 or 3:30 and take the risk of running late but they get rated on how well the competition runs on time afterward so it's a point of pride to keep to the schedule). With 10 skaters in an event, that's a difference of 12 to 15 minutes per event.  With an average of 50 events ina non-qual competition, running all of those under IJS would take a lot more ice time than under 6.0. 

I know this first-hand because my club has already done the homework on this.  For most clubs b eing required to run all events under IJS would nmake hosting the competition cost-prohibitive.

I understand what you are saying. However I have run 6.0  and helped run IJS comps as well as watched them for years.I dont know timewise what IJS uses according to the rulebook. I do know that it took ROUGHLY the same amont of time for the pre juv girls last year under 6.0 and under IJS this year at our regionals.
I said roughly, not the same.I can tell you my DD didnt have 3.40 alloted for her skate and scoring.They ran on time as well.
IJS under juv is modified, which is what I explained above.They dont score them right away, you have to wait just like under 6.0. They also dont score 5  second marks, they only have three.

But at least the skaters get feedback on what needs work.No, it wouldnt pay for a small comp to run IJS.But if you have a larger comp and have IJS anyway it might bring in some more skaters.We have staters here that went out of their way to attend IJS comps under Juv this year as they plan on moving up to Juv next year.

[blue111moon]

The following is a driect quote from the USFS document, "ISU Judging System (IJS) at Non Qualifying Competitions":

"Using IJS:
• Prepares skaters for qualifying competitions
• Offers feedback to skaters and coaches from judges and technical panel. Computer printouts are made available for the skaters to analyze where they earned points.
• Can use any number of judges (not just an odd number) from three to nine. Three or four judges will use the average of all of the judges' marks. Five or more will drop high and low scores for each element/program component and then average the rest.
• Must allow 1 ½ to 2 ½ minutes between skaters for review when using IJS.
• Requires additional personnel – technical panel, runners, accounting room
• Well-balanced programs may need to be verified manually for juvenile, intermediate and novice. In some cases, the technical controller will need to manually verify the elements of the well-balanced program. Typically, this is needed during the period after the rules have been changed (May) and before the IceCalc accounting software has been updated for the upcoming season (September)."

The entire document (which is on the USFS website) details the comparision in costs between 6.0 and IJS and leaves it up to clubs to decide if the increased costs are acceptable.  But there is NO question that IJS increases costs over 6.0.