Why are top female dancers often older than skaters?

[Query]

It seems like most top female singles and pairs skaters peak in their late teens or early 20's.

But female principle dancers of major companies in ballet, modern and maybe contemporary dance are often older.

What is different?

(I guess I get why some guys stay near the top older in both - they don't have the same type of upper body weight distribution changes, so their moment of inertia maybe doesn't change as much, and flexibility isn't as important to male choreography.)

[4711]

Interesting....

I was going to throw all kinds of things into the ring, but they are rather equal for dancing and skating (at top level)
The only thing I can think of, skating is more of a sport, you train, peak and retire, while dance is a job, you train and dance until they slam the lid down on you....

And guys don't get really good until after the hormones kick in...I mean, they don't seem to find their stride until they are in their late teens...(I don't recall any young teen male skaters, unlike with the girls...)

[jjane45]

are the top dancers plagued with comparable injuries?

[Clarice]

I think if we had more professional opportunities for skaters, you'd see more older skaters.  What we see is mostly competition, which favors the younger athletes.

[4711]

are the top dancers plagued with comparable injuries?

good question.
I do believe there is a laundry list of ailments the professional dancer has to show for his/her troubles.
You just hardly ever hear of it. I am pretty sure ballerinas have nearly crippled feet, I am thinking ankles and knees are pretty much done by the time they retire.

But then again, there are considerable differences: swinging wood floors, hour long warmups....

[Landing~Lutzes]

I guess it depends on what you consider "professional." There are differents "levels" at a dance school, but all of the dancers in these companies are contract dancers. There are soloists, junior soloists/coryphees (corps de ballet members that recieve solos as well) and the corps de ballet (performs in groups.) Training for a professional career usually begins between ages 5 and 7. Around age 14, you are typically involved in a pre-professional school and taking a rigorous ballet schedule consisting of 10-15 classes per week. Around age 18 - 19, you hypothetically join a company and pursue the professional field. When you join the company, you start out in the corps and work your way up. So lets say you spend 2 years in corps then 2 years in coryphees, that puts you at 22-24 when you finally reach soloist (given you ever do reach soloist!). Most dancers retire in their early 30s, but it truly depends on your body and what it can handle.

I think ballerina do suffe a good amount of injury through their careers, but in a different way than skaters. Skating (especially jumping) is pretty high impact on the joints. Ballet is hard on the feet and alignment in the legs and hips due to the large amount of turnout it requires to be a dancer, not to mention the damaged pointe does to your feet (I'm only 19 and have had foot surgery already due to pointe!) Similar injuries in skating I suppose would be the typical overuse injuries (tendinitis, shin splints, etc.) Professional ballet also has weight requirements that usually out dancers at an unhealthy weight range which brings on its own set of issues.

Hope this helps answer some of your questions! I'm 19 and dance at a pre-professional school, but I don't have any intentions of going pro. I like where I'm at now :-)

[Query]

BTW, some top ice dancers ARE older. Not sure what that means. Maybe a different category of injuries?

I was thinking of this after watching a TV show (First Position) on people training for a ballet competition (Youth America Grand Prix), whose winners sometimes get scholarships and company positions. I was a bit horrified at what they were doing to their bodies to enhance flexibility. One of the coaches (teachers?) more or less said that contestants who didn't do those things were less likely to win.

[Landing~Lutzes]

YAGP is an interesting competition ((I've competed in it 4 years.) The standards for YAGP (and the ballet/dance world, really) is changing so much. Flexibility is good, but too much flexibility can be equally debilitating, especially as a dancer ages (since oftentimes strength is compromised). I've also noticed the age girls start pointe going lower and lower...like, girls 8-9 years old in pointe! I don't even want to think about the damage pointe will do so soon...it will be interesting to see how the next generation of dancers will mature.

[ls99]

An exception to the perceived rule: Katherine Healy, iirc principle dancer at 15? and figure skater to boot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8d2ov28Y2A

[irenar5]

She spots when she spins!

[Query]

Maybe it was a dumb question for me to pose. If there isn't an accepted canonical answer, and no definitive studies, there is way to answer it. For example, all these answers sound vaguely plausible:

1. Principle land dancers perform for hours at a time, with relatively short breaks. Skaters compete for a few minutes in a day. Do adults have better endurance?

2. Because the expectation is that some land dancers will be older, companies may look for dancers based as much on future potential as on one or two short performances. I.e., it is their potential as adults that counts, not their current skills.

3. Because of that same expectation, elite level dance teachers may be more willing to devote their time to teaching adult dancers. Maybe elite level skating coaches are less eager to do so.

4. Maybe the posture constraints of figure skating, like gymnastics, are oriented towards youthful forms, at least for the girls. Whereas maybe it is easier for an adult women to meet the aesthetic constraints of ballet, modern and contemporary dance. I don't know this to be true, but it's conceivable.

5. As near as I can tell, there are probably tens of millions, at least, of little girls who take up ballet and other land dance with some degree of seriousness. As near as I can tell, that's at least 1 or 2 orders of magnitude more than take up figure skating. Plus many land dance studios and dance schools offer discounts, scholarships or informal work/study to their most promising students, so families don't have to be as wealthy. So, by the time you are looking at principle dancers of major dance companies, the girls are at least one or two orders of magnitude more select than the girls who grow to win Olympic or Worlds' gold figure skating medals. Those who audition principle dancers can choose girls with perfect (for the activity) post-maturity body forms (eliminating, for example, "curvy" upper bodies), and can choose girls with an absence of prior major injuries and conditions. Elite level skating coaches have fewer students to choose from, so can't find girls whose bodies are ideally suited in the long term - maybe.

I bet you folks could come up with more explanations.

I don't see how one can answer the question definitively unless there have been definitive studies. Unless some of you know of such definitive studies, it was a dumb question to ask. Sorry.

And adding in the gender variable was pointless. Too many differences.

P.S. Katherine Healy is an exception to EVERY rule. No one person can do all those things.

[amy1984]

4. Maybe the posture constraints of figure skating, like gymnastics, are oriented towards youthful forms, at least for the girls. Whereas maybe it is easier for an adult women to meet the aesthetic constraints of ballet, modern and contemporary dance. I don't know this to be true, but it's conceivable.

I would suspect that you're right in this aspect to a point.  I would also suspect that expense comes into it.  It's expensive to train and compete.  With no real money maker afterwards, it's really a sport for kids with parents who can pay for it.  Pro dancers get paid to dance (not much, but still...).  Even if you're winning big a la Patrick Chan, it apparently costs him something like $160000 (if I'm remembering right) a year to train and put himself in those silly air filled pants that compress all the blood out of his legs   His parents hold fundraisers.  And his parents laughed and said 'more' when the $160000 was mentioned to them.  It seems ridiculous - I mean, how much can you really spend on skating? But factor in relocation, training equipment, travel, coaching, ice time, physio, etc., and you're talking big bucks.  Someone like Patrick doesn't just pick up a pair of skates, pay his club fees and ice fees, get a lesson once a week, and head off to Sochi.  I would say it's probably gotten more expensive over the years as expectations have gone up and people go further and further to reach an athletic goal.  And I would also say that the waning pro scene has helped turn it into a kid's sport a la gymnastics because there's no way for skaters these days to earn big bucks a la Scott Hamilton unless you're Yu Na Kim or something. 

Plus, skating is hard on your body.  So is dance, but probably in different ways.  The impact in skating is huge.  Hips go.  Knees go.  Especially with kids doing big jumps younger and younger (which is a whole nother thread, lol!)

[4711]

I would suspect that you're right in this aspect to a point.  I would also suspect that expense comes into it.  It's expensive to train and compete.  With no real money maker afterwards, it's really a sport for kids with parents who can pay for it.  Pro dancers get paid to dance (not much, but still...).  Even if you're winning big a la Patrick Chan, it apparently costs him something like $160000 (if I'm remembering right) a year to train and put himself in those silly air filled pants that compress all the blood out of his legs   His parents hold fundraisers.  And his parents laughed and said 'more' when the $160000 was mentioned to them.  It seems ridiculous - I mean, how much can you really spend on skating? But factor in relocation, training equipment, travel, coaching, ice time, physio, etc., and you're talking big bucks.  Someone like Patrick doesn't just pick up a pair of skates, pay his club fees and ice fees, get a lesson once a week, and head off to Sochi.  I would say it's probably gotten more expensive over the years as expectations have gone up and people go further and further to reach an athletic goal.  And I would also say that the waning pro scene has helped turn it into a kid's sport a la gymnastics because there's no way for skaters these days to earn big bucks a la Scott Hamilton unless you're Yu Na Kim or something. 

Plus, skating is hard on your body.  So is dance, but probably in different ways.  The impact in skating is huge.  Hips go.  Knees go.  Especially with kids doing big jumps younger and younger (which is a whole nother thread, lol!)

considering that Dorothy Hamill said in her book it cost her (parents) 20k a year for her to skate and train with the best, and that in the 60s and early 70s...things have only gotten more involved since then, so I can imagine - or rather not...those numbers make me dizzy - how much it costs these days.

And I think a lot of the top ice shows have folded in the last several years, and even then, there is not much of an after market for skaters...become coaches. Maybe.

[Doubletoe]

Dancers (ice dancers and regular dancers) do not do triple jumps.  Triple jumps put an amazing amount of strain on the body, not only in terms of torque, but in the repetitive use injuries and falls sustained over many years of trying to master them.  The male body peaks a few years later than the female body, and the female body starts to degenerate after age 25, so you really see that in the life of freestyle skaters.

[Query]

At the principle dancer level some ballets (e.g., The Nutcracker Suite) include triples, for men and ladies. But not 3-1/2 rotation jumps, unless that has changed.

But they jump differently, according to a ballerina/skater I spoke to, whose ballet training included triple jumps. Skaters have to do more of the rotation in the air (she said the spinal rotation completes before leaving the ground in ballet). In addition, a ballet slipper allows the foot to point more fully, and help absorb more of the impact in the point and de-point [not sure what that is really called). Most figure skates don't let you do that. Some figure skates press hard against the back of the Achilles Tendon when the skater points, which can cause the tendon to burst (tendons are designed for tension, not compression). So all those things should be easier on the dancer's body than the skater's body.

OTOH, ballerinas ARE expected to fully point ("pointe"), which MUST put quite a strain on the body if they fall forwards or over-extend. They also often have to create and absorb the jump momentum from and to standing positions, whereas skaters can more gently glide through the jump. To make matters worse, ballerinas are expected to be able to jump off of either foot, not just a chosen favorite foot.

There is also one modern dance style jump, done primarily using the ankle, with straight knees, which sounds impossibly hard on the body. Beth Davis, a modern dance teacher, told me it is thankfully not taught in most modern dance schools. I think it originated with Isadora Duncan, but don't know the details. Some modern dance also incorporates two very dangerous falls, the push-up fall and the percussion back fall, which no sane person would do.

[Landing~Lutzes]

At the principle dancer level some ballets (e.g., The Nutcracker Suite) include triples, for men and ladies. But not 3-1/2 rotation jumps, unless that has changed.

But they jump differently, according to a ballerina/skater I spoke to, whose ballet training included triple jumps. Skaters have to do more of the rotation in the air (she said the spinal rotation completes before leaving the ground in ballet). In addition, a ballet slipper allows the foot to point more fully, and help absorb more of the impact in the point and de-point [not sure what that is really called). Most figure skates don't let you do that. Some figure skates press hard against the back of the Achilles Tendon when the skater points, which can cause the tendon to burst (tendons are designed for tension, not compression). So all those things should be easier on the dancer
s body than the skater's body.

OTOH, ballerinas ARE expected to fully point ("pointe"], which MUST put quite a strain on the body if they fall forwards or over-extend. They also often have to create and absorb the jump momentum from and to standing positions, whereas skaters can more gently glide through the jump. To make matters worse, ballerinas have to do the same jumps in both directions, not just on the left or right foot.

I always watch the male dancers in their jump classes (males have special classes just for jumps) and always think they would make excellent figure skaters as they do whip out some high jumps and multiple rotations (I always think of the male variation from Don Quixote, seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvMOvsXZXY4). I haven't learned too many jumps that involve multiple rotations, and any of the jumps I do that involve rotation in classical ballet (contemporary is different) most of the actual rotation seems to be done at a very different point in time compared to skating (as the ballerina/skater mentioned, most of my time spinal rotation occurs at the preparation for the jump.) I think dancers create their own kind of "momentum" when it comes to jumping; all jumps are executed from a bent knee position (or plié) and finish in plié, similar to skating. We also "roll through the foot" when taking off and especially landing from jumps which gives us a bit more control of the impact. For example, when landing from a jump, you landing in demi-pointe, progress to a flexed foot, and then down into plié. Hope that makes sense, it's a bit hard to explain in type.

[MadMac]

. . . To make matters worse, ballerinas are expected to be able to jump off of either foot, not just a chosen favorite foot. . .

This is actually a plus for dancers. Working both sides of the body equally keeps the muscles balanced so one side does not develop more than the other. Skaters must be very careful to avoid the muscle imbalances typical of the one-sided training.

[granita]

Isn't it partly about the difference between the demands of competition and performance too?

For the skaters their peak is right at the upper limit of what a human body can do, as one-off brilliance at the peak of a training cycle and usually right at the risky edge of trying things that might go wrong. For dancers, it's about the upper limit of what can be done with repeatable perfection, every night of a run. I suspect the former is harder to maintain and peaks earlier in someone's career.

Also, perhaps the gains in maturity, experience, performance nuance count for more in what makes excellent dance than they do in skating, so even if someone is losing a little in jump height, they're still improving as a whole dancer.

[Clarice]

Isn't it partly about the difference between the demands of competition and performance too?

I say yes, but I'm still arguing it isn't only about what is possible physically.  It's also about money.  We don't really have a lot of opportunities for skaters to continue professionally.  If somebody was paying them to keep skating, I'll bet many more of them would do it.  We see dancers continuing longer because they are professionals doing a paid job.  We all know how expensive competitive skating is; you can't keep that up indefinitely.

[Query]

Ouch. When I looked at a few videos of Nutcracker, I couldn't find a single example of a triple jump. Maybe it isn't there.

And although a number of websites
like this one
say triple jumps are on rare occasions choreographed for women, the only videos I could find,
like this one
were men.

So maybe the lady was exaggerating to me in what she had been trained to do... Or maybe "triple" in ballet jumps doesn't always refer to rotations, but to some other motion...

Perhaps gymnasts, skaters and dancers are just trained to peak at different ages, but none of them do can triple jumps or above for long?

---

In any event, my real interest is in long term athletic activities for normal people. Looking at when elite athletes peak may have nothing to do with how long normal people can skate or do anything else athletic at much lower levels of performance.

[4711]

I always watch the male dancers in their jump classes (males have special classes just for jumps) and always think they would make excellent figure skaters as they do whip out some high jumps and multiple rotations (I always think of the male variation from Don Quixote, seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvMOvsXZXY4). I haven't learned too many jumps that involve multiple rotations, and any of the jumps I do that involve rotation in classical ballet (contemporary is different) most of the actual rotation seems to be done at a very different point in time compared to skating (as the ballerina/skater mentioned, most of my time spinal rotation occurs at the preparation for the jump.) I think dancers create their own kind of "momentum" when it comes to jumping; all jumps are executed from a bent knee position (or plié) and finish in plié, similar to skating. We also "roll through the foot" when taking off and especially landing from jumps which gives us a bit more control of the impact. For example, when landing from a jump, you landing in demi-pointe, progress to a flexed foot, and then down into plié. Hope that makes sense, it's a bit hard to explain in type.

Gee, thanks, now I need a bath in an ice vat....

[Query]

I think dancers create their own kind of "momentum" when it comes to jumping; all jumps are executed from a bent knee position (or plié) and finish in plié, similar to skating. We also "roll through the foot" when taking off and especially landing from jumps which gives us a bit more control of the impact. For example, when landing from a jump, you landing in demi-pointe, progress to a flexed foot, and then down into plié. Hope that makes sense, it's a bit hard to explain in type.

I looked at some more ballet videos. I think you are right.

In fact, now that I think about it, the fact that skaters glide through jumps doesn't actually keep the stress down all that much - because we are expected to hold a pose for a second before the jump, and hold the landing position for a couple seconds after the jump (I may have the times slightly wrong). That's a lot like a gymnast "sticking" landings, which is supposed to be very hard on their bodies. Even Ice Dance has a lot of aternating move - hold pose - move - hold pose stuff.

OTOH, it look like ballet and other off-ice dancers tend to flow from one move to the next without pause. So they actually usually have horizontal velocity before and after the jump, and are in that way a lot easier on their body. Of course, it might be a lot harder on them than it looks.

I want someone to come up with some kind of gentle figure skating form for adults. We can still practice jumps and other moves, but in the most gentle possible way, within reasonable body limits, using more natural body motions. To be gentle, we would have to throw away some of the current aesthetic standards for figure skating, and just concentrate on creating a life-long fun and healthful athletic activity, along the same sort of lines as low-impact aerobics, water aerobics, sea kayaking and contra-dance.

Alas, I'm not a good enough skater, and am not photogenic enough, to be the proper exponent for a hypothetical new form of skating. 

[ls99]

Here you go. Just copy John Curry's Nocturne

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhCqxk1fT_s&feature=related

[Query]

Your point is that John Curry did flow smoothly from move to move, and didn't "stick" his landings?

Was that Nocturn performance a show which wasn't judged, or an actual competition?

He won the following competition (in 1976)

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xojrWqgEcCw

but he flowed a little less, and stuck his landings a little more.

[ls99]

Your point is that John Curry did flow smoothly from move to move, and didn't "stick" his landings?

Was that Nocturn performance a show which wasn't judged, or an actual competition?

He won the following competition (in 1976)

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xojrWqgEcCw

but he flowed a little less, and stuck his landings a little more.

Re:para 1. Yes
Re:para 2. As far as I know it was a show, not competition.