Ice dance lobes - size and roundness

[sampaguita]

I have a hard time completing the pattern my coach gives me. I though it was simply because I was too slow, but then I watched a beginning ice dance couple on Youtube skating without a lot of speed but able to complete the Dutch Waltz pattern (which I can NOT do even with chasses at 138bpm).

Of course I still aim to improve my stroking, but I also think that perhaps the size of my lobes are too ambitious for my current skating skills (no input from coach on this, but then he seems to have high expectations from all of his students). I want to start from the minimum, and then work my way up, because I think that's better than the constant frustration of not being able to do it the way a higher-level dancer would.

What are the guidelines on the size (short and long axis) of the lobes, and how can I use the hockey lines and circles to guide me? What is the minimum and what should I eventually aim for? I skate in an Olympic size rink, and my target is to do the Dutch Waltz. Thanks a lot!

P.S.  The pattern my coach gave me is a chasse sequence, though it's not the official ISI pattern -- it's 4/4, around 80-88bpm, with the beat going 1-LFO, 2-RFI, 3-4-LFO, instead of 1-2 LFO, 3-4 RFI, 1-2-3-4 LFO. He wants me to do hockey-dot-to-hockey-dot in 6 lobes, working up to 4 lobes. For some reason, I can't do it in 6 lobes, but can do it in 5. However, I tend to stay too long on the last FO edge because I find myself not reaching the long axis in time for the next stroke.

[jjane45]

I started my dutch waltz pattern small, really small! In the learning stage it is a dilemma whether to
A) keep the pattern on correct edges but small  - or -
B) skate it out but on rather flat edge
With time it will eventually come. But in the beginning I think I just had it small until I got comfortable with it. There is no right or wrong in the lobe size, I'd say continue to work with dance coach to make sure your technique is correct. Have fun!

PS: dutch waltz is probably the hardest of preliminary dances and requires ton of power to fill out the rink! Take it easy first and do not get discouraged.

[SynchKat]

If you are on an Olympic sized rink you won't be filling the ice for awhile.

As Jjane said there is no right or wrong lobe size, it is what is comfortable for you and whatever you have to do to fit the dance in the rink.  A Dutch waltz done by me won't be the same as one done by Jjane which won't be the same as one done by you.  Just like some people can get end to end in 4 strokes, some 6, some 8.

If you are holding that last edge for too long your lobes are too big.  Start shallow then progress up to larger lobes and therefore deeper edges.  Get your technique and timing down on smaller lobes then gradually increase while keeping the timing and technique.  If you sacrifice technique and quality for big lobes then you just end up "freeskating" your dances which means they will become a bit wild and our of control...not how you want to do a dance.

[amy1984]

Your pattern will get bigger as you practice.  Just concentrate on doing the right steps for now.  If the pattern is short don't worry too much at the beginning stages.

[jjane45]

However, I tend to stay too long on the last FO edge because I find myself not reaching the long axis in time for the next stroke.

keep in mind the FO, FI covers half of the lobe and second FO covers the other half of the lobe. get an even rhythm will help later progress   I think dance is perfect for you to build edges, power, and control!

[sampaguita]

Thanks everyone! My coach is a firm believer in setting one lofty goal for each of his students (as he says it's easier than having multiple goals that get progressively harder). However, as a beginner in ice dance, I find that I don't have it all yet, so I was wondering which aspects I can and can't compromise. I'll focus less on the size and more on the timing, as suggested. Thanks again!

[techskater]

Sometimes while there might be an over-riding lofty goal, it's easier to break it into more manageable ones for the person attempting to achieve it so they don't get frustrated/lose interest.

[amy1984]

My coach is a firm believer in setting one lofty goal for each of his students (as he says it's easier than having multiple goals that get progressively harder).

I would say that the more healthy way to go about goal setting is the exact opposite   Creating small goals that are part of a bigger picture/goal is a good practice, this way progress is measurable and you feel as if you are getting somewhere because you are achieving the mini goals.  You have a good idea of how far you've come and how far you have to go.  A big picture goal is still a great idea... but there should be a path of how to get there set out with smaller goals.  Also, this is a good thing to keep in mind... Goals should be SMART - Specific, measurable, attainable, relevant and time bound.  This criteria will help you solidify 'dreams' - such as passing the dutch waltz - into attainable, planned goals.

It is certainly 'easier' to set out one lofty goal - easier for the goal setter (less work involved in planning) and the teacher (also less work in planning) but it's also lazy and rarely works out.  It certainly doesn't make attaining the goal easier, that's for sure!

[sampaguita]

Sometimes while there might be an over-riding lofty goal, it's easier to break it into more manageable ones for the person attempting to achieve it so they don't get frustrated/lose interest.

Yup, techskater and amy, I totally agree. I had quite a few discussions with my coach about this. I keep telling him we needed to keep the goals small then gradually increase difficulty as I get better. He won't budge. I guess he is as just as stubborn as I am.

So for lessons I try my best to please him, but for my personal practice I want to keep everything at my own pace.

[icedancer]

I think lofty goals and very minute goals are about the same - somewhere in the middle is probably about the best.

My current coach is all about the minute goals and in her mind nothing is ever good enough - mind you I LOVE her - but the last time I tested (my bronze Moves) - she finally said, "Aren't you ever going to take this test??"  She had thought I was ready for some time but was waiting for ME to say the word, LOL

I think the best goals are something like:  I would like to test these dances (or this dance or Moves or whatever) next year in April, before AN, after the birth of my child - rather than setting the goal to "Learn the Dutch Waltz" - because in dance you will always be learning the Dutch Waltz.  Every time you get on the ice you will learn something different about the Dutch Waltz.  Once you've passed it you will learn more - as you become a better skater you will learn more about... yup - the Dutch Waltz.

I think it was Jerrod Swallow (if any of you remember him) who said that if the Dutch Waltz were a Gold Dance nobody would pass it.  It is that hard.

I don't mean any discouragement at all - just let everything come as it does - people think that dance is easy because you are not jumping and spinning but it is hard. Very hard.

But very fun!!

[jjane45]

My current coach is all about the minute goals and in her mind nothing is ever good enough....

I think it was Jerrod Swallow (if any of you remember him) who said that if the Dutch Waltz were a Gold Dance nobody would pass it.  It is that hard.

I wanted to post about the exact same thing about Dutch waltz but did not have the source. this is such a hard dance also in a way that you push all you can down the rink, then suddenly have to switch gears for really deep edges in the end pattern, lest you run out of room there (I skate on nhl rink, maybe it's different for Olympic).

nothing is good enough for my dance coach either, I think perfectionism is the unwritten requirement for being a dance coach lol. but if he required gold level skating for Dutch waltz from me, I would have long quit

[SynchKat]

I agree with everyone here.  While having a lofty goal is good in the long run you do need little goals to reach it.  For the Dutch Waltz goals could be, do a proper waltz progressive, do progressives on lobes along the ice, do 6 beat swing rolls, add the progressive to the swing rolls. 

I think often with dance especially people want to jump in and do the big picture, i.e. the dance.  When I taught dance I would teach the new step for the dance.  For the Dutch the progressives and swing rolls, Canasta the chassee and swing roll slide.  My first coach would teach about 4 steps at a time and when you got those right you could learn the next 4. 

So what I am getting at it don't rush things.  If you learn the components properly then you will have no trouble putting it all together.  I am working on the Austrian Waltz and I have broken down the steps, done them on figures and finally feel more comfortable doing them on pattern with a partner.

[sampaguita]

What a coincidence -- I just had the best lesson so far from my dance coach. For the first time, I felt he was actually seeing some progress in my skate. Of course there were a lot of things that had to be worked on, but now he broke it down into components! We focused less on the size of the lobes and more on the timing and technique (haha). Makes me wonder if my coach is actually a member of this forum, lol!

[Icicle]

in dance you will always be learning the Dutch Waltz.  Every time you get on the ice you will learn something different about the Dutch Waltz.  Once you've passed it you will learn more - as you become a better skater you will learn more about... yup - the Dutch Waltz.

I think it was Jerrod Swallow (if any of you remember him) who said that if the Dutch Waltz were a Gold Dance nobody would pass it.  It is that hard.

Wow, what an interesting idea. I've never thought about it, really!. I've already passed my Dutch Waltz test, I'm too busy with other stuff, including dances, to go over the steps of the Dutch Waltz again. Now  I want to try it  and see how different the steps will feel because I've progressed since the test.

[Icicle]

I don't mean any discouragement at all - just let everything come as it does - people think that dance is easy because you are not jumping and spinning but it is hard. Very hard.

But very fun!!

This is so true! I once interviewed an intermediate-level dancing couple, who had competed at the nationals. Both did freestyle in the past, and the girl is still doing it. I asked them what was more difficult: dancing or freestyle. This is what the boy said, "Freestyle is harder to learn, but once you have a certain jump, it's easy to do. On the other hand, dancing steps are easy to learn, but it's very difficult to do them right."

[icedancer]

Wow, what an interesting idea. I've never thought about it, really!. I've already passed my Dutch Waltz test, I'm too busy with other stuff, including dances, to go over the steps of the Dutch Waltz again. Now  I want to try it  and see how different the steps will feel because I've progressed since the test.

Yes - thank you - you know I think this is one of the problems in dance is that once you've passed a dance you think "I've got that" and then you move on to the next thing.  I see this all of the time especially since there are so few dedicated dance sessions - we have a weekly social dance and it is great for just keeping you in touch with those dances that you have passed, makes you aspire to learn new dances, skate with different people and work on the things you are working to test right now.

Another old "adage" in dance is that you never really learn the dance until after you have passed it.

Chew on that one!

[AgnesNitt]

There's a variation of the Dutch Waltz called the Dutch Waltz Twizzle. A Gold dancer told me about it. I think after each progressive there's a twizzle.

[jjane45]

There's a variation of the Dutch Waltz called the Dutch Waltz Twizzle. A Gold dancer told me about it. I think after each progressive there's a twizzle.

[AgnesNitt]

nothing is good enough for my dance coach either, I think perfectionism is the unwritten requirement for being a dance coach lol. but if he required gold level skating for Dutch waltz from me, I would have long quit

Yoda: "Do or not do. There is no Try"

Dance Coach: "Try or Do, doesn't matter, it's never good enough."

[sampaguita]

Yoda: "Do or not do. There is no Try"

Dance Coach: "Try or Do, doesn't matter, it's never good enough."

LOL!!!

[ls99]

This may be the place to introduce the idea of the true recreational skater: what's a goal?

[sampaguita]

To me it, a "goal" has always been something like a test, whether formal or informal.

[SynchKat]

Have you had any more practice on your dances?  How are they coming along. 

[sampaguita]

SynchKat! Yup, I'm now doing dance 2x a week. Coach has formally introduced progressives. Speed is getting better, and now coach wants me to work on deeper edges. Hopefully we can start working on swingrolls in August so we can start the Dutch waltz soon.

[techskater]

This may be the place to introduce the idea of the true recreational skater: what's a goal?

to me, a goal is something you want to accomplish that you are working toward.