Repeating Elements in a USFSA Test Program

[jjane45]

My silver program is 2:09 - for testing, I had enough extra time to do two combination spins (in case I bombed one of them!)... I think you'd probably be fine for the test (unless you want an extra spin) but you might want it longer if you plan to compete - so you don't feel rushed!

Not planning on competition any time soon. I've meant to ask whether it's OK to redo a bombed element if there is enough time left. Will the judges frown upon it?

[CaraSkates]

Not planning on competition any time soon. I've meant to ask whether it's OK to redo a bombed element if there is enough time left. Will the judges frown upon it?

Test book says "Extra elements may be added without penalty." My single jumps are pretty solid so I wasn't worried about that - I had been having trouble with my camel before the test so my coach and I decided to go with three spins - plain camel, camel-sit and camel-layback. If I totally bombed the plain camel, I could do it again at the end of the program. I ended up hitting the camel perfectly and did both combos - nothing was said on my papers about doing too much.

[jjane45]

Test book says "Extra elements may be added without penalty."

Well, I am not comfortable with the camel and love to do it twice for some buffer, that would be a perfect incentive to add 20 seconds of music.

I still don't quite understand to what extent this will help the skater though. In an extreme theoretical situation, skater bombs two spins and a jump, then somehow finds time within the time frame to redo all those elements perfectly, everything else was flawless. Will the judges ignore the bombed ones and score the skater based on the "extra elements" which were perfectly executed, hence a pass?

[fsk8r]

Well, I am not comfortable with the camel and love to do it twice for some buffer, that would be a perfect incentive to add 20 seconds of music.

I still don't quite understand to what extent this will help the skater though. In an extreme theoretical situation, skater bombs two spins and a jump, then somehow finds time within the time frame to redo all those elements perfectly, everything else was flawless. Will the judges ignore the bombed ones and score the skater based on the "extra elements" which were perfectly executed, hence a pass?

Admittedly I'm in the UK so we've got different judges and requirements, but my coach always has an extra element in the program for contingency. My latest test required a flip. Therefore the last jump element was the spare flip. It was actually a loop, but the loop was to be ditched if I didn't land the flip. If I missed the required combination I had the spare loop and a toe-loop which I could add the combination jump to.  Similarly if I screwed up the spin, it was up to me where I squeezed in an extra one (probably in the spare jump spot!) so I could avoid any reskates. I've never had to use the spare element, but it's helpful to know it's there and I do know people who've screwed up a required element and had to repeat in the spare spot.

[sarahspins]

nothing was said on my papers about doing too much.

That is because for testing it's not a problem - I believe that even in competition *right now* it's not a problem (silver was allowed 3 spins in the WBP requirements this season).  The rules are changing at the end of the month though, to limit Silver WBP requirements to only two spins, however the test requirements stil allow you to do whatever you want to do, as long as you meet the minimum requirements, which is one camel spin and one combo spin, it doesn't really matter what you do beyond that.  My silver test program has 3 spins, which is fine for testing, but if I were to compete that program, I'd need to "fix" it by removing one.

In an extreme theoretical situation, skater bombs two spins and a jump, then somehow finds time within the time frame to redo all those elements perfectly, everything else was flawless. Will the judges ignore the bombed ones and score the skater based on the "extra elements" which were perfectly executed, hence a pass?

In theory, sure, but I don't think most skaters find the time for three extra elements because in USFS the programs are already fairly packed with the test requirements... best case I think you are looking more at having enough time in the program to redo (or include extra) one element.. if it's choreographed well anyways.  Competition is different though... you aren't allowed to add extra elements, and the judges would for sure notice it.  Best case is you could swap something if you completely missed an element (meaning not attempted), but for example, adding another jump to make up for falling on one doesn't really help at all... the first jump was already scored and counts, but if you fell on the first jump of a combo or sequence, you could still turn a later single jump element into a combo or sequence to help make up some points, since you didn't already use it up the opportunity for a combo or sequence.. but that is different than completely adding something extra, it's just changing what is already there to maximize points.

[sarahspins]

Not planning on competition any time soon. I've meant to ask whether it's OK to redo a bombed element if there is enough time left. Will the judges frown upon it?

I would assume no - at least under 6.0, it might be a little different under IJS if whatever was done and "bombed" filled a jump spot or not.  However, I will say that adding an element is never good - I judged a basic skills comp a few months back and one of the pre-pre girls did some footwork towards the end of her program (basically some steps on the toe picks) that I don't think was meant to look like a toe loop toe loop combo, but on that day it did, and undeniably so, and we had to count that as an extra jump when her judging sheet was already filled out, which means she actually lost points because of it being an "extra" jump element and it did effect her placement.  Even her coach agreed that the way she did it that day looked iffy, and I believe they ended up changing the program as a result so there wouldn't be a similar call in the future.

[jjane45]

In theory, sure, but I don't think most skaters find the time for three extra elements because in USFS the programs are already fairly packed with the test requirements... best case I think you are looking more at having enough time in the program to redo (or include extra) one element.. if it's choreographed well anyways. 

For the test program, I always have turns or gliding maneuver between elements, but it's by no means "packed"- making sure I have enough energy for the required elements.

Based on what everyone said so far, can I say it at least DOES NOT HURT to leave time for an extra element at the end just in case. So if the camel spin did not have required revolutions, try another camel at the end?

**** thread split request, interesting discussions on the extra elements! thanks everyone!! ****

[Clarice]

In a test program, it's not going to hurt you to throw in another try at a missed element if you have time.  On the other hand, I don't think it's going to help much, either.  Look at it this way - if that missed element is the only thing that's standing between a pass and a retry, you're going to get to try it again on a reskate anyway.  If there were multiple errors, the program isn't likely to pass even if you throw in one more try at an element.  Also, remember that a free skate test passes or retries *as a whole* - it's possible to pass while missing an element if the scores are high enough on other elements or on the second mark.  So my inclination would be to just skate the program as planned and not stress over changing things on the fly.

[techskater]

While the "pass as a whole and passing with a missed element" is true in theory, most judges no longer pass a skater who can't complete a "gateway" element.  Another poster here could have had their Gold FS test on the strength of their second mark was asked to reskate their Axel because it was two footed.  She hit the reskate and passed, but I suspect even though the judges were adult friendly, if she had missed it, it would have been a retry.

That being said, take the extra time after the program to regroup, breathe, and refocus and then nail the element on a reskate.  That way you aren't thinking "OMG, I gotta do this this time" at the end of the program.

[CaraSkates]

While the "pass as a whole and passing with a missed element" is true in theory, most judges no longer pass a skater who can't complete a "gateway" element.  Another poster here could have had their Gold FS test on the strength of their second mark was asked to reskate their Axel because it was two footed.  She hit the reskate and passed, but I suspect even though the judges were adult friendly, if she had missed it, it would have been a retry.

I volunteer at many test sessions (and usually play music so I'm next to the judges and hear their comments!) and this is true at my rink - if you miss an element on the list and don't hit the reskate, you are getting a retry.

For me, having the extra element didn't stress me because I competed Silver before I tested it (I passed Pre-Juv as a teen so didn't "need" Silver but wanted the test anyway) and my competition program had three spins - I honestly don't know what I would have done with the extra time in the test program without the bonus spin. I already had spirals, footwork and connecting elements. It was reassuring to know I had two chances to get that spin. And of course, the afternoon after I passed my test, my camel became fabulous and I easily get the revs!

[jjane45]

Look at it this way - if that missed element is the only thing that's standing between a pass and a retry, you're going to get to try it again on a reskate anyway.  If there were multiple errors, the program isn't likely to pass even if you throw in one more try at an element.  Also, remember that a free skate test passes or retries *as a whole* - it's possible to pass while missing an element if the scores are high enough on other elements or on the second mark. 

Thank you everyone for an interesting discussion and thanks Mod for the thread split!

Interesting point here. From the "program as a whole" perspective, bombing just one camel spin could be better than bombing the camel spin twice in the original program, as the later is considered "multiple errors"?

...if you miss an element on the list and don't hit the reskate, you are getting a retry.

Alas. What about a 2.5 rev camel? 

That being said, take the extra time after the program to regroup, breathe, and refocus and then nail the element on a reskate.  That way you aren't thinking "OMG, I gotta do this this time" at the end of the program.

Good point! Risking the "risk element" without regrouping may lead to a retry instead of reskate.

[sarahspins]

Alas. What about a 2.5 rev camel? 

That will just come down to how generous the judges are that day.  They might let it go, they might want a reskate if it's close but not quite.  It also depends on how they count - some don't even start counting until they see your face after you've entered the spin even though they're supposed to start once you are in position, so you could have fewer revs "count" than you think you do. 

My own camel spin is funny.. when I'm not worried about it, it's fine, maybe better than fine.  Lately I've gotten as many as 8 solid revs on it, and can sometimes get another slow one or two out of it, but when I'm stressing out, I would tend to hook the entrance too early and I fall out of it before I even get into it - making for zero revs.  My coach has worked with me a lot on them when I don't want to over the past few months, to the point that I can normally still get the required revs on a "bad" spin by forcing it and staying in position and not bailing, but the good ones are SO much better (and easier) and I would hate to have a "bad" one when I do eventually test silver.  Of course I've chosen a crazy hard combo spin so I have that to worry about in my program, and thankfully the camel is the first element of my program, so I get it out of the way early and don't have to worry about it for long.

[fsk8r]

If there is a space in the program for an extra element, I'd have it there spare. While you think it's better to catch your breath after the program to do the reskate on an element, that's also time for the nerves to kick in and the body to freeze up and you're also VERY tired then. Unless you practice redoing elements after the program, it' a shock to the system when you have to do it.
But I wouldn't be going around redoing lots of elements because it'll detract from the program as a whole and there's the bit about actually demonstrating you can do other skills. A program of just flip jumps and camel spins isn't going to have much variety.

[techskater]

When preparing for a test, you should always skate your program, wait a couple minutes then reskate whatever was iffy in the run through

[icedancer]

When preparing for a test, you should always skate your program, wait a couple minutes then reskate whatever was iffy in the run through

That is GREAT advice! Pretend you are in a testing situation.

Please don't try to second guess what the judging panel will do, etc., with your test.  Just practice your program with the elements and try to do your best on the test - trying to strategize any other way is just a waste of energy IMHO (and I have done that as well when I tested once - but you never really know what is going to happen or who is on your panel or what their expectations are so in the end it was a waste of time trying to strategize) -

Good luck on your test!