loop from inside three

[nicklaszlo]

My coach teaches loop from inside three turn, and then other entries.  I think inside three is a relatively easy entry.  Why isn't this entry seen much (ever?) in competitions?

[jjane45]

Never tried it from inside 3. Different coaches just prefer different technique I guess.

I learned my loop jump from LFO3 (CCW skater) and it was so much easier than back crossover entry, which took me much longer to learn. I still have friends who strongly prefer the LFO3 entry.

[VAsk8r]

I find it to be harder from an inside 3, but I've seen a lot of skaters who prefer it that way. I wish I did, because I keep hearing about how judges want to see different/harder jump entrances.

[sarahspins]

I think because most skaters find it easier to start to learn the jump that way... but personally I find doing a loop from a FI 3 absolutely terrifying and I really don't like to them that way - I think it has to do with the lack of speed (I like to go faster into mine).  When I first "regained" my loop I could only do it out of a waltz jump for a long time, doing it from back crossovers took a while longer to "get", but now that's what I prefer, and obviously I could do a loop at the end of any jump as a combo.

Interestingly though, my coach has this footwork sequence she teaches because it gets you dizzy, and it ends with a RBO double 3 into a loop - doing the loop out of that doesn't seem to bother me as much as just doing the FI 3.

[Nate]

My coach teaches loop from inside three turn, and then other entries.  I think inside three is a relatively easy entry.  Why isn't this entry seen much (ever?) in competitions?

Because it's a harder entrance, but it has great benefits at the lower level.  That is a one footed take-off (as in you turn and jump without putting the foot down).  It's much easier on a single, and gets way more difficult once you add another rotation onto the jump.  You do not see many elite skaters doing triple loops out of three turns, cause it's really hard, however, they will often warm up singles or doubles out of that entrance because there are benefits to doing it in training at least:

1.  That entrance is similar to the landing position of a jump, so skaters who can do a loop out of the FI3 securely tend to have an easier time adding a loop behind another jump to form combinations.

2.  The inside three turn forces the skater to check the left side in front before the take-off, so it's a natural way to combat shoulder prerotation, which can cause tons of issues on that jump.

3.  The inside three turn forces the skater to have their weight firmly over their right side before the take-off.  On the more two-footed loop take-offs, there is potential for the skater to allow their weight to center which not only degrades the take-off edge (and wastes potential rotational entergy), but it can cause them to take-off in a way that throws them off axis and causes the jump to lean in the air badly.  It is also a natural way to teach them where the free hip needs to be on the take-off (as well as teaching them how to turn the free leg in, which helps on the entrance edge to the jump).

^ I'd like to know why they do that one *before* other entrances.  I think 1, 2, and 3 would be good enough reason to go about it that way.  But I'd like to know what the coach says :-P

In some instances the coaches do it cause they were taught that way, but you never know why the cycle was started in the first place :-)  If it works, use it.  In any case, it's a very useful entrance outside of "it's just different," but skaters going to doubles and triples fine it considerably more difficult than the more two-footed entrances.  There is not much room for telegraphing on that entrance and it requires a great deal of control beyond what the more two-footed entrances require.

And yes, it is scarier because a lot of people process it as if it is a forward take-off, and those are simply scarier than backward take-offs to most skaters.  To many skaters, scary = hard.  But it truly is hard, especially once you progress past single loop to double loop.

[Nate]

I think because most skaters find it easier to start to learn the jump that way... but personally I find doing a loop from a FI 3 absolutely terrifying and I really don't like to them that way - I think it has to do with the lack of speed (I like to go faster into mine).  When I first "regained" my loop I could only do it out of a waltz jump for a long time, doing it from back crossovers took a while longer to "get", but now that's what I prefer, and obviously I could do a loop at the end of any jump as a combo.

Interestingly though, my coach has this footwork sequence she teaches because it gets you dizzy, and it ends with a RBO double 3 into a loop - doing the loop out of that doesn't seem to bother me as much as just doing the FI 3.

The RBO double three into a loop *is* a FI3 into a loop.

I think the reason why that feels easier is because since you're doing the three turns faster and it starts with a RBO3, your brain sort of treats it like a backward entrance, which is less terrifying.

Skating straight into it and doing FI3 right before the loop feels like a forward take-off to a lot of skaters, because you have to do that inside 3 and there isn't really much time to telegraph the 3 before the jump.

[fsk8r]

2.  The inside three turn forces the skater to check the left side in front before the take-off, so it's a natural way to combat shoulder prerotation, which can cause tons of issues on that jump.

Actually it's harder to check the jump which is why they teach the beginners this method. You use the 3 turn to help create the rotation for the jump. And this has now led me to prerotating the jump which is incredibly hard to break unless you change your jump setup as my whole timing is off. 
Jumping from back crossovers you've got to create all the rotation as you jump. Although now I've paid attention to the different approaches there are quite a few people who don't really do it straight from crossovers. They do an outside three, step down and jump. The outside 3 is easier to check because there's a pause but you don't lose all the rotational momentum. I'm currently messing around trying back outside 3 - Mohawk into loop jump. It's similar to the outside 3 approach, but you get a feel for the rotation before the jump.

[Nate]

It's not about checking the jump.  When you're going into the jump the shoulders and hips have to rotate together on the back edge.  It's about checking the turn so that the skater isn't as prone to letting that shoulder go when going into the jump, which can be a huge problem on the more two footed take-off since they can still be very stable with that other foot on the ice at the beginning of that take-off. 

I had two huge posts going on and on about the technique of it but I deleted them.  It was two much.

That jump take-off didn't make you pre-rotate.  You developed a technique to compensate for issues the FI3 take-off uncovered- none of which I can pinpoint without a video, but fact is the FI3 entrance wasn't the problem.  All the take-off did was bring underlying issues to the fore.

It's not just about checking the shoulders.  If the core isn't checked it will bring the shoulders with it.  If the shoulders aren't checked it will pull the core along for the ride.  If you open the free hip it tends to drag things along with it, as well.  Everything has to rotate together, on that edge, which is where almost all the rotational energy is created.  You can create more by skating faster and doing a deeper, faster entrance edge into the jump.

The three turn doesn't help create rotation, or at least it's not supposed to in the way you're inferring.  Any skater who is doing that [for that reason] is simply compensating for their lack of edge control on the loop take-off and it's why a lot of people have tiny loops with no pop to them and UR issues even though they only need to rotate just over a quarter of a rotation for a clean Single Loop, Lol.  Almost all of the rotation comes from the entrance edge.

Pre-rotating the jump actually wastes rotational energy, so doing that isn't helping you at all.  A skater with good loop technique should be able to do it from gliding backwards on a flat just as well as they do it from crossovers or a FI3 turn.  It's all about that take-off edge, not what comes before it.

If a skater can't properly do a loop from a FI3 but says they're fine otherwise, the first thing I'd tell them to do is a Waltz Loop combo to test that.  99% of the time, that Loop will have the same issues their loop from a FI3 has, because the two are very similar.  No matter how hard you try, you basically cannot avoid addressing the underlying issues that FI3 entrance is bringing attention to.

[techskater]

Many people learn it from an inside three turn AND develop an issue with pre-rotation.  Typically at the Pre-bronze going into Bronze level, the quality of the threes is not the same as at the Silver or Gold level and so often don't have a proper check, although it does get people to stay over the jumping hip properly (which is why it's often initially taught that way).  So, fsk8r's experience with this causing pre-rotating is not uncommon.

[retired]

The point of teaching from an inside 3 at first is to establish a rhythm to the jump of:  down. up. down/UP.     Once the skater knows that's the timing, they can transfer that feel to other entrances.   Er yes, I have to remind skaters that jumps go UP.   A series of travelling 3's will also create that motion effectively with good body control as well.

[Nate]

Many people learn it from an inside three turn AND develop an issue with pre-rotation.  Typically at the Pre-bronze going into Bronze level, the quality of the threes is not the same as at the Silver or Gold level and so often don't have a proper check, although it does get people to stay over the jumping hip properly (which is why it's often initially taught that way).  So, fsk8r's experience with this causing pre-rotating is not uncommon.

That's not a loop issue.  That's a three turn and edge control issue.

And the coach should have fixed it.  All the loop did was make it Very noticeable.
Coach should work to fix the underlying technique/mechanics issues causing it.
I had the same issue, but it didn't translate to other jumps and I was able to fix it once I started doing video seriously and could see what I was actually doing.

[blue111moon]

I can only do a loop from an inside three.  One temporary coach I had for a summer tried to get me to do it from back crossovers, insisting that the inside-three method was the beginner way and I'd never get doubles that way.    But since I had - and still have - no desire to do doubles, and the inside-three loop works for me, I haven't changed.  It's interesting for me to read that people consider that to be a more difficult way to do them. 

But then I initially learned loops coming right out of a toe loop.  It took me a very long time to be able to do one by itself.  I have odd learning processes. 

[fsk8r]

I can only do a loop from an inside three.  One temporary coach I had for a summer tried to get me to do it from back crossovers, insisting that the inside-three method was the beginner way and I'd never get doubles that way.    But since I had - and still have - no desire to do doubles, and the inside-three loop works for me, I haven't changed.  It's interesting for me to read that people consider that to be a more difficult way to do them. 

But then I initially learned loops coming right out of a toe loop.  It took me a very long time to be able to do one by itself.  I have odd learning processes.

My coach goes back to the inside three method when teaching doubles.
And she currently won't teach me the back crossover approach because of my current issues with a delayed takeoff, as I'd probably spend longer waiting to jump from a back crossover than from the three turn.

Blue111moon - have your tried doing the loop from a back 3-mohawk? For me it feels quite like the inside three turn approach but I figure it's slightly more interesting in a program.

[Live2Sk8]

What an interesting thread!  The loop jump has been my nemesis.  When I first started learning it, I couldn't do it from back crossovers at all.  Simply couldn't get onto the edge properly for the takeoff.  Finally my coach had me try the FI-3 entrance.  Still took over a year before I could actually get off the ice.  I would do what we called cinnamon rolls, where I would get on the takeoff edge and stay on it in a decreasing circle (think of a cinnamon roll, or a snail shell) until finally the edge decreased to where I had to jump.  I finally got to where I had a loop jump in my program.  A sad one, but I did leave the ice.  Then I moved and got a new coach, who said my loop jump was pre-rotated with that entrance.  I started all over again and haven't tried a FI-3 entry ever since.  I still don't do the jump from back crossovers.  I do FO-3 then a mohawk and step down onto takeoff edge for the jump.  Again, I had to go through this process on my own of just making myself sit on that takeoff edge and press myself into the edge until I jumped.  My jump is much better now but it's still a struggle and I don't always get the full rotation, especially when I am nervous (competition or exhibition).  i admire people with good loop jumps - it is a very pretty jump and seems so effortless when you watch someone with a good jump.