The Judge's Perspective

[AgnesNitt]

I believe Xanboni may be from the same area as this judge. Here's some comments regarding 'pushing' kids through levels towards the latter section of this post. MAybe it's an issue peculiar to the area where there's an overabundance of coaches.
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/2011/03/another-post-about-skipping-levels.html

I've never seen this in my area or even heard a comment about it from any parent in the club or any coach I know.

[blue111moon]

I don't know the blogging judge or the area but I can think of a couple lovcal coaches who fit that description, harsh as it may be.  Besides, coaches malign judges right and left at every competition and test session and tar the whole panel with the same brush.  The only sad thing about that blog that I see is that the coaches who fit the description won't see themselves in the rant. 

[VAsk8r]

I know my coach doesn't have much experience with adults, because in my area, it's difficult to find coaches who do. When we began working on my last test, she told me straight up, "I have never taken this test or prepared a skater for this test before." She thought I might be ready. She told me she thought I had a 50/50 chance. We put it out there, and I failed, badly, for three reasons:
1. A truly bad test day -- skating below my average ability
2. Generally didn't meet the standards of the test
3. Had been taught one thing wrong -- another adult skater from my rink who has a different coach was also doing it wrong

Do I think my coach is a money-grabbing thief? Absolutely not. Did I blame her? No. Did I blame the judges? No. It was a learning experience for both of us that made me a better skater. I hope the judges know that and didn't go away with a sour taste in their mouths.

[blue111moon]

I don't think the judges will hold anything against you or your coach as long as you fix the reasons for the failure the next time you take the test.    Generally it takes a pattern of errors before judges notice coaches in a negative manner - consistently putting skaters out who aren't even close to being ready, failing to fix errors or address issues that caused skaters to fail, having several skaters demonstrate the same errors, etc.

[davincisop]

I've noticed with judges, too, that if you skate an element poorly but they think you can do it better (like if you were nervous and were shaky on a move as a result) they will let you do a do over on the particular element. I know a few that have passed as a result because the judge could tell they were nervous and gave them the benefit of the doubt.

In my case I had to reskate an element that was left out due to a misunderstanding and nailed it, however, it did not get counted. I was also REALLY sick that day so it wasn't my best test overall. But I did like how the judge gave me a chance to at least show I could do the element.

[nicklaszlo]

3. Had been taught one thing wrong -- another adult skater from my rink who has a different coach was also doing it wrong

What was it?  Let us learn from your experience.  I am just starting to work on a test my coach has not coached before.

[icedancer]

What was it?  Let us learn from your experience.  I am just starting to work on a test my coach has not coached before.

I'm curious too.  As a judge I have seen adults doing the wrong moves at times - especially when the deadline for the "old move" was September 1 and the "new Move" starts at that time -- we see these mistakes in the October and November test sessions --
It's important for the adults to stay on top of the test requirements !!

[techskater]

I don't think the judge was singling out that experience of the coach not teaching one move correctly to a skater because they'd never had a skater on that test before.  I am suspecting he/she is seeing a pattern of "throw crap at the wall" tests

[sarahspins]

I know my coach doesn't have much experience with adults, because in my area, it's difficult to find coaches who do. When we began working on my last test, she told me straight up, "I have never taken this test or prepared a skater for this test before." She thought I might be ready. She told me she thought I had a 50/50 chance. We put it out there, and I failed, badly, for three reasons:

Okay, part of this that doesn't make sense to me, since they removed the forward 3's pattern from pre-bronze, it's not like *any* of the patterns are different than standard track tests.  Yes the foci may be different for some, but the moves are fundamentally still taught and performed the same.

I'm also curious as to which move you were doing "wrong" that was also being done incorrectly by another skater with another coach.  At my rink the major differences have to do with the optional start and patterns, but once you are skating the moves most skaters look very similar.

[davincisop]

I was missing a loop jump in my bronze free test. They don't specifically mention any of them but they expect a loop, flip or lutz.

[icedancer]

I was missing a loop jump in my bronze free test. They don't specifically mention any of them but they expect a loop, flip or lutz.

When did you take that?  The current rulebook says:

1. At least three different single jumps of which one must be a Salchow and one must be a toe loop (each performed as a solo jump, not in combination or sequent)/

2.  One jump combination consisting of a waltz jump and a toe loop (no turn or change of foot between jumps)

Adult silver wants a flip and a loop.  Lutz required in Adult Gold.

Have these changed?

[nicklaszlo]

Have these changed?

No.  Davincisop was missing the third jump, which is often a loop.  I would add that in theory it could be an axel.

[icedancer]

No.  Davincisop was missing the third jump, which is often a loop.  I would add that in theory it could be an axel.

Or a lutz or flip.

[karne]

I believe Xanboni may be from the same area as this judge. Here's some comments regarding 'pushing' kids through levels towards the latter section of this post. MAybe it's an issue peculiar to the area where there's an overabundance of coaches.
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/2011/03/another-post-about-skipping-levels.html

I've never seen this in my area or even heard a comment about it from any parent in the club or any coach I know.

This actually ties in with something I've been thinking about. A few weeks ago, I wanted to take my Aussie Skate Free Skate 4 test. So did another girl, 8 years old, with a different coach. At our rink, Aussie Skate tests are done once a month before actual judges.

My coach didn't like the idea, because she said I wasn't backwards enough on my landings and she didn't want any soft-hearted judges putting me up before I was ready. I accepted that immediately (primarily because I knew it was true) and carried on. The 8 year old insisted she wanted to test. Her coach let her. The judges, somehow, passed her.

Watching the 8 year old practice on Tuesday, and she was no more backwards on her jumps than I was; her camel spin was actually worse than mine and I don't even know how someone's camel spin can be worse than mine. This kid gets really amped about having to win everything. But tomorrow night she's going to lose, and I know it's not going to go down well - all because she was passed into a level she shouldn't have been.

[sarahspins]

This kid gets really amped about having to win everything. But tomorrow night she's going to lose, and I know it's not going to go down well - all because she was passed into a level she shouldn't have been.

This is a good reminder that it's not always bad to get a reskate - if she isn't ready to pass, she definitely shouldn't.  If she shouldn't have passed freeskate 3, it wouldn't be a bad idea for her to spend more time on those elements to help prepare her for the next level, even though she has somehow passed. 

I still work on moves I have passed, I don't expect to eliminate those just because they're not "required" any more.  Strong skating skills start from the basics on up and build on each other.  I even remind the adult class I am teaching right now that skills begin from the beginning and it takes a lot of practice and repetition to perfect them... you don't ever stop practicing and each skill builds on the next one.

[blue111moon]

And one point to remember is that, unfortunately, there are coaches out there who ARE in it just because of the money.  I've lost count of the number of skaters and parents who push to test up as high as they can before they get out of high school because they can teach part-time in college.  Coaching pays a whole lot more than flipping burgers or most office work.  They don't have any particular desire to teach;  they show up, teach what they already know for four years and after graduation they drift away to get on with their real lives.

Only some of them don't move on.  They stay in coaching because the money's good and the hours are flexible and there are a lot of rinks with group programs and lots of beginners with parents who can be convinced that Little Suzy "has lots of natural talent and could go far" with enough private lessons from Just The Right Coach.  Parents don't tend to check a coach's credentials;  In twenty years of teaching group lessons, I've had ONE parent question my background (the skating director, club and rink have my resume on file).  Parents also tend to believe what the coach tells them.  After a while and a few thousand dollars spent on failed tests and more lessons on top of lessons, some parents may figure out that their skater either doesn't have all the talent in the world or that the coach might just be blowing smoke and try someone else. 

And judges, who see hundreds of skaters every year, get to know which coaches know their stuff and which coaches are just marking time, keeping skaters and parents happy and raking in the dough.  Some judges might try to help the skaters and parents by suggesting that they might want to get another opinion on a move or attend a camp but that gets tricky and a lot of judges won't bother.  And some judges do develope dislikes for certain coaches' teaching styles; they're human.  But I've heard far more negative comments from coaches about judges than I have from judges about coaches.

Maybe that's why this Judges' blog is sounding so outrageous to so many people. 

[Sk8tmum]

And one point to remember is that, unfortunately, there are coaches out there who ARE in it just because of the money.  I've lost count of the number of skaters and parents who push to test up as high as they can before they get out of high school because they can teach part-time in college.  Coaching pays a whole lot more than flipping burgers or most office work.  They don't have any particular desire to teach;  they show up, teach what they already know for four years and after graduation they drift away to get on with their real lives.

Only some of them don't move on.  They stay in coaching because the money's good and the hours are flexible and there are a lot of rinks with group programs and lots of beginners with parents who can be convinced that Little Suzy "has lots of natural talent and could go far" with enough private lessons from Just The Right Coach.  Parents don't tend to check a coach's credentials;  In twenty years of teaching group lessons, I've had ONE parent question my background (the skating director, club and rink have my resume on file).  Parents also tend to believe what the coach tells them.  After a while and a few thousand dollars spent on failed tests and more lessons on top of lessons, some parents may figure out that their skater either doesn't have all the talent in the world or that the coach might just be blowing smoke and try someone else. 

And judges, who see hundreds of skaters every year, get to know which coaches know their stuff and which coaches are just marking time, keeping skaters and parents happy and raking in the dough.  Some judges might try to help the skaters and parents by suggesting that they might want to get another opinion on a move or attend a camp but that gets tricky and a lot of judges won't bother.  And some judges do develope dislikes for certain coaches' teaching styles; they're human.  But I've heard far more negative comments from coaches about judges than I have from judges about coaches.

Maybe that's why this Judges' blog is sounding so outrageous to so many people.

Absolutely agree 100%.  I would add in also that some coaches need a backbone:  they will put in tests because mom or dad or skater demand it, and they simply don't have the backbone to say "no".  Maybe personality, maybe fear of losing a student, maybe wanting skater or parent to "learn a lesson" ... it's hard to know. 

Judges can't comment on coaches due to code of ethics.  Coaches seem to be able to kvetch about judges.  It's not a two-way street.

[fsk8r]

Judges can't comment on coaches due to code of ethics.  Coaches seem to be able to kvetch about judges.  It's not a two-way street.

I think it's because for the skaters and the parents, judges are a separate entity. They come along to competitions and tests and pass judgement and go away again. They're not really people in the same way that "the Government" isn't really people. Skaters see coaches and other skaters every day. The relationship difference means judges are an easier target for rants.

[sarahspins]

I would add in also that some coaches need a backbone: they will put in tests because mom or dad or skater demand it, and they simply don't have the backbone to say "no".  Maybe personality, maybe fear of losing a student, maybe wanting skater or parent to "learn a lesson" ... it's hard to know.

I agree, and I actually respect my coach more for telling me "no" when I wanted to test two months earlier than I did this last time.  She was the one that had been pushing me to get my moves ready, and I thought they were, but when it came down to time to sign that form and turn it in she said she really felt like I should wait - that my moves were ready, but my confidence just wasn't there yet.  I hated hearing it even though I knew she was right, and I'm glad she made that call for me because I was much better prepared when I finally tested.

[jjane45]

I still work on moves I have passed, I don't expect to eliminate those just because they're not "required" any more.  Strong skating skills start from the basics on up and build on each other.

It kind of depends. 

I work on stroking, basic elements like turns, crossovers, swing rolls all the time, but passed MITF patterns are buried in the bottom of my priority list as long as I have other patterns to test. Ice time is just that limited. For dances I still run thru the "passed" dances semi-regularly, but in no way comparable to the "current" dances.

[icedancer]

But I've heard far more negative comments from coaches about judges than I have from judges about coaches.

Maybe that's why this Judges' blog is sounding so outrageous to so many people.

But are these coach's comments on public blogs? I think this is why this is even a topic of conversation!

Everyone gossips. That is a given in the human condition I think.  Everyone likes to dish dirt and hear the latest news.  Skating is a small world.

There is a difference between a public forum like a blog (or this message board) and just general griping about judges, coaches, parents, skaters, clubs, etc. -

Are there no "code of ethics" in USFS or PSA regarding coaching ethics?  I think there are...

[sarahspins]

I work on stroking, basic elements like turns, crossovers, swing rolls all the time, but passed MITF patterns are buried in the bottom of my priority list as long as I have other patterns to test.

I should have clarified that I don't work on them all, just a few key ones   Some are part of my typical warm up (power stroking, cross strokes, power pulls) and others like power 3's and 3's in the field, plus those spirals on silver I do just to maintain them... because if I didn't keep doing them I really do fear I would "lose" them!

[VAsk8r]

Okay, part of this that doesn't make sense to me, since they removed the forward 3's pattern from pre-bronze, it's not like *any* of the patterns are different than standard track tests.  Yes the foci may be different for some, but the moves are fundamentally still taught and performed the same.

Honestly, at the time, my coach might not have taught any/many preliminary or pre-juv skaters, either. Almost every skater at my rink was pre-pre or no test, and the higher-level ones mostly went out of town for lessons.

The two things I'd learned incorrectly were:
1. On the circle 8, I was doing a right outside edge, left outside edge, right inside edge, left inside edge, instead of the left inside after left outside. Now that I'm looking at the test book, it does say "thereby repeating the previously skated circle." I don't know if my coach misunderstood that, didn't read carefully, or what, but that was the move the other skater with the other coach also had wrong.
2. On the five step mohawk, I was doing a slip with one leg behind the other. Turns out the free leg isn't supposed to cross behind, it just comes beside the inside edge leg. That was a weird one for me to re-adjust.

[jjane45]

I should have clarified that I don't work on them all, just a few key ones   Some are part of my typical warm up (power stroking, cross strokes, power pulls) and others like power 3's and 3's in the field, plus those spirals on silver I do just to maintain them... because if I didn't keep doing them I really do fear I would "lose" them!

The truth is, after I passed the bronze MITF, I did not revisit any of the patterns at all. When the moves "time slot" comes up, all I did was silver MITF patterns. I did practice preliminary dances several times, but in no way comparable to the time I spend on "next up" dances.

[icedancer]

The two things I'd learned incorrectly were:
1. On the circle 8, I was doing a right outside edge, left outside edge, right inside edge, left inside edge, instead of the left inside after left outside. Now that I'm looking at the test book, it does say "thereby repeating the previously skated circle." I don't know if my coach misunderstood that, didn't read carefully, or what, but that was the move the other skater with the other coach also had wrong.


The way you were doing it was correct.  It is outside-outside then inside-inside.  It doesn't matter which foot you start with but you do the third circle on top of the 2nd circle regardless.

This was a really hard concept for anyone who had done real figures to follow.