Hi - super newbie here - please don't hate me and my ridiculous questions

[~Twinkies~]

Hello.  My name is Michelle and I'm the mom of a beginning figure skater named Valerie. 

Valerie is 9 years old and took her very first -knob-kneed and fearful- learn-to-skate class about 18 months ago.  She fell in love with ice skating immediately.  Before this, she was not one to embrace physical challenges. She would be more apt to pick up a book or paintbrush than a soccer ball or baseball bat and was not at all the child you would classify as "athletic".  She's fit and trim, but not the most graceful doe in the herd.  She's tall for her age, with super long legs and alternates between looking lovely, long and graceful and looking like a gangly, newborn giraffe (growth spurts and all that fun stuff).  She's become enamored with figure skating and wants to move forward and compete.  Honestly, I'm not sure how this is going to play out, but I'm her mother and it's my job to be supportive.  She is motivated and working hard, so I'm all over that.

Val started out very cautiously and she tends to approach/learn new skills slowly (her twin brother broke his wrist on the first day of the learn-to-skate program and brought some real and palpable fear into the picture). But, she has persisted through Basic 1,2,3 and 4 and wants to keep going.  She's had private coaching sessions for the last 6 months and has recently entered the world of freestyle ice time in our local rink.  That was a little traumatic (for both of us - holy collision waiting to happen!).

It seems like she's entered into the sport of figure skating a bit late, as many of the girls her age/size in our area seem to have more advanced skills.  This doesn't really seem to be on her radar, so I'm running with her enthusiasm and not pointing it out to her.  But, as a late-entry skate-Mom, I feel a little wobbly.  I don't know WTF I'm doing, and don't want to let on!!

See my next post, since my questions ran over the character limit!  Please!  Read on!

[~Twinkies~]

Valerie has a 1 minute program and is skating in her very first basic skills competition next month.  So, brace yourselves, here come the questions.......

1. How far in advance of a competition is a skater usually introduced to their program?  I feel like 4 weeks is a little short (for a first program skater who has limited practice time since she can only be on freestyle ice if her coach is present and available).

2. Do you normally have any input into the music selection?  Her coach simply assigned her music, which I was OK with at first.  But, then wondered if that's the norm.  Will Val or I get to express an opinion of  music choices going forward, or it that usually at the coach's discretion?

3. How much coach's input do you expect or tolerate on the dress choices?  I get that we are new and need guidance.  I understand this is a basic skills event, she's at a low level and that the dress should not be over-glam.  I know there's an element of "matching the music" to take into account.  All these things considered, does your coach have a Yes/No say in dress selection?

Warning - there will be many, many more questions coming your way!!

[sampaguita]

Hi Twinkies! Welcome to the forum, and to the world of figure skating!

1. In my rink, it's standard to have a 1-minute program finished by after 6 sessions which are 30 minutes long. In my first program, my coach finished choreography in 3 sessions. I am an adult skater though, and I did have some input on choreography, so that may have sped up the process a bit.

2. I chose my own music, and I think many adults have inputs on what music they want. I hear that this is not the norm for younger kids though. However, if your child doesn't like the music that the coach chose for her, then you might want to talk to the coach about this. I'm sure they'll be willing to take your child's preference into consideration.

3. You are right that the dress need not be over-glam at this point. More importantly, though, the dress should be decent. So if the coach is insisting on costumes that are not age-appropriate, then you might have to put your foot down. In my personal experience, though, budget was my main issue in the dress -- I wasn't willing to spend $$ on a 1-minute program. If my coach had insisted on requiring that I have a really nice costume, then I would have protested right away, but my coach actually agrees that I didn't need an expensive dress. [Of course, I wish I had a nicer dress, but all things considered, I was glad I didn't spend a lot of money on it.]

As a mother, you are free to interact with your daughter's coach on all issues regarding your daughter's skating. There are many skating moms and coaches in this forum, and I hope they'll give more inputs. Good luck on your daughter's competition!

[lemongranita]

On 2. I think as they get more used to competing most skaters, even quite little ones, normally have some input on the music choice and should chat with their coach about what they like or share things they've heard that they think might work. For my last routine, I handed over a playlist of 12 fairly varied things I liked and my coach picked one. This time around, she suggested something I'd never even heard before.

For very beginners though, it makes sense for a coach to have a collection of things ready-cut to 1 minute (which is quite a faff to do nicely) that are age-appropriate and the right pace for the level and that the coach knows aren't already being used by another skater at the rink/in the area.

Both coach and skater should be able to veto things they totally hate, given how often they'll have to listen to them!

[blue111moon]

It seems to me that all of your questions can be answered with one sentence:  "It depends upon the coach."    Over the past 30-odd years, I've known coaches who control - or expect to control - every detail from choreography to costume to brand of skates to music and hairstyles.  I've also known coaches who let the skater and parent choose everything that makes the skater happy (even if the choices end up wildly inappropriate).  Most coaches are somewhere in between.  Personally, I expect to know both the rules for the competition and level and to understand and work with the skater's individual strengths and weaknesses when preparing for a competition.

As to specifics, I don't think it's odd for the coach to have chosen your daughter's first program music herself.  It's cheaper and easier that way for everyone.  You could talk to the coach to ask why she picked that particular music - the answers might help give you some insight into what to look for the next time.   Four weeks prep for a Basic Skills competition isn't unreasonable either, as long as you daughter has a decent memory.  (Going over the moves in her head off-ice or drawing out the program on a piece of paper while the music plays can help.)  The dress choice shoul lean toward comfort and fit rather than style.   

Please keep in mind that this is Basic Skills, not the Olympics.  The point is for the skaters to have fun and show off their skills.  The medals and results are secondary.  If your daughter enjoys it and wants to do it again, then it's time to talk to the coach and discuss the steps going forward.

[FigureSpins]

Yep, depends on the coach.


As a coach, here are my answers for a 9-year old Basic 3/4 skater:

1. How far in advance of a competition is a skater usually introduced to their program? 

I prefer six to eight weeks in advance.  It's so very different to do elements in a program format that it takes a long time for them to get it together, not to mention hitting music cues and including artistry.  Doing skills in isolation is good, but doing them in a program is much more difficult.  Make sure she does at least two run-throughs with the music during those freestyles - you're paying extra for that privilege and it really helps them get their timing down.

2. Do you normally have any input into the music selection?  Her coach simply assigned her music, which I was OK with at first.  But, then wondered if that's the norm.  Will Val or I get to express an opinion of  music choices going forward, or it that usually at the coach's discretion?

Music is a PITA.  I start asking for music suggestions from the skaters months in advance of the competition season.  It takes weeks and weeks to get them to give me their choices and then it's time-consuming to review and cut the music.

Sometimes, I don't like their choices.  One of my students was insistent on a piece of music that had nothing going for it - there was no lead melody, no change in tempo or even an ending.  Just a 20-second loop of background music played over and over.  I really tried because she asked me to do it, but there was no way she could skate TO that music; there were no cues or crescendos. 

Last year, I put together a playlist of suggested songs and that worked well for the skaters who wanted to compete but drew a blank at what kind of music.  Two of the suggestions were a home run - the skaters performed really well to their choices.  Two of the music choices weren't so good because the skaters couldn't pull off the program - one very fast and dancey, the other slow and sultry.  While they did okay in the standings, choreographing the programs was difficult.

3. How much coach's input do you expect or tolerate on the dress choices?

For Basic Skills, I let the family choose.  Most show me the outfit before they buy it, so I can point out that something's too revealing or the style/color doesn't go with the music.  I prefer to see the skaters wear outfits that can be reused, say for a test session.  Costume-jewelry brooches can turn a plain dress into a sparkly outfit for a competition, then be removed for the test session, which is more low-key. 

I'm very budget-conscious about my skating students.  I don't like seeing money spent just to compete off-ice with whose dress was more expensive, who has $35 skate guards, and how many pairs of Chloe Noel pants they own.  I think buying a gently-used dress makes sense for this level.

[Purple Sparkly]

Another coach perspective:

1.  I agree with FigureSpins that I prefer six to eight weeks, but I think four to six weeks is more common.  Often by the time a skater/family decides to do a competition, there are only 4-6 weeks left before it.  It is not impossible or unreasonable to choreograph a 1 minute basic skills program in one or two 30 minute lesson(s).  It depends a lot on the skater's learning ability, their comfort with the skills, and the coach's experience.

2.  For Basic Skills in my area all music is the same for all skaters at a certain level.  For example, Basic 3 and Basic 4 skaters all use the same music on half ice.  At competition, this allows them to run both events simultaneously.  We get new Basic Skills music every year.  While sometimes I'm not crazy about the music, it saves me a lot of trouble and headaches cutting a bunch of 1 minute programs and I don't have to deal with asking a beginner skater what they want to skate to, and usually these skaters have no idea what they want, anyway. 

I had a skater that competed Basic 3 and she HATED the music so much that she was embarrassed to skate to it because it was "baby music."  Luckily, I was able to fall back on, "I didn't pick it!" even though I thought the music was perfectly acceptable for her age and level.  When we get to a point where we have our own music, sometimes for the first program I will choose the music for them and sometimes I will give them a couple of options.

3.  For Basic Skills skaters, I suggest something simple with long sleeves because they tend to get cold.  I tell them that some sparkles are acceptable, but it does not have to be crazy sparkly.  I tell them that they should easily be able to find something for under $100.

[taka]

Welcome!!

I'm a skating adult but skated as a child... I'm in the UK so our our equivalent of basic skills is SkateUK.

1. How far in advance of a competition is a skater usually introduced to their program? For SkateUK grades it is whenever the competition is announced, so maybe 5-6 weeks in advance. For skaters who have learnt to do a few jumps and an upright spin then months before a competition is normal.

2. Do you normally have any input into the music selection? Depends on the coach really! The music needs to work for everyone though, so a collaborative effort to choose the right music can help.

A lot of our coaches have a music library of things that would work as skating music. It can be easier sometimes if they come up with music (or a small selection for the skater to then choose from) especially if it is a first program and there is not a lot of time to prepare. Cutting music to the right length takes skill and can be time consuming and they may already have music cut to the right length. The coach will also know the music rules too (eg in the UK no vocals in a singles program!).

3. How much coach's input do you expect or tolerate on the dress choices? Same as music - it varies coach to coach... Some have very definite ideas and others are happy as long as the skater isn't trying to skate in something too OTT or revealing or completely wrong for the music (eg a floaty ballet style dress for tango music!)

For SkateUK level skaters our coaches encourage fairly simple dresses, eg a glittery practice dress in a favourite colour for growing kids or something plain and test appropriate for teens and adults who are no longer growing. They tend to have little or no stoning so are reasonably priced. Long sleeves too as our rink is freezing and they want skaters to be comfortable!

Once our skaters are at a level where they are competing at open competitions they switch to competition style dresses with more complicated designs and / or more sparkly stoning. Coaches may have suggestions of colours or styles to look for to fit better with the music (particularly if the dress is being made to order). They will almost definitely want to check the dress chosen is not too revealing or likely to get caught doing certain moves and complies with the rules too.

[davincisop]

I will throw in just a little idea regarding the dress. If you want it to feel "special" for the competition, get a modest dress, and add some rhinestones to the collar and the sleeve cuffs (if it's long sleeved). Then it's not over glammed up but she feels like she's going into a competition. I've seen modest things like that on the younger low level ones.

I always find it strange when I see a low level child in a $600 Brad Griffies dress.

[LT]

My 5 year old (Gamma...I'm not sure what the equivalent is in Basic) just did her first competition a couple of months ago so we are kind of in the same boat.

1. She had 4 or 5 30-minute lessons. About 15 mins of each was choreography and practice. The other 15 mins (give or take) was regular lesson time, learning new skills etc.

2. My daughter got to pick the music, coach had approval. Daughter chose two tracks, coach listened and liked both, so coach let my daughter pick whichever was her favorite. I then mixed and cut it to the right length using audacity (free) on my Mac.

3. Coach and I talked about the dress. We had a similar idea of what it would look like, but my daughter was set on pink  . I scoured the net and finally found one that would fit the bill (our idea, in pink fabric  ). Got it shipped from Canada (fortunately it fit perfectly); total cost $160, and we will be reusing it -- and the music -- for recitals, other comps, etc.

[jjane45]

1. How far in advance of a competition is a skater usually introduced to their program?  I feel like 4 weeks is a little short (for a first program skater who has limited practice time since she can only be on freestyle ice if her coach is present and available).

It's totally possible to get a decent program in short period of time as long as she is focused and uses her ice time wisely. No worries! It's a learning experience for all involved.

[VAsk8r]

All good responses. One thing I have learned about coaches is that none of them want their students to do poorly. Your daughter's coach probably would not be encouraging you to do this if she didn't think, knowing how much your daughter currently skates, that she had time.

But be aware that this is the beginning of what is known as "competition season," which in my area goes up till Regionals in October. The coach may well be thinking your daughter won't just do this competition but also the one coming up in 2 months, and another one in 4 months, etc, and this one is more of a warmup.

We have a lot of kids your daughter's age or older still working through Basic Skills at my rink. A lot of people on this forum, me included, started as adults. Freestyle is definitely intimidating for everyone at first, but she'll get used to it. If her coach hasn't talked to her about what skills to do in what part of the ice and right-of-way rules, that's something to ask about.

Glad to hear she's loving it!

[fortune8]

I'd planned to have my elder daughter (nearly 6 at the time) wear a nice track set to her first comp lol. Lucky for me a kindly rink grandma clued me in just in time. She ended up making DD's dress and matching boot covers for $20 (+ $20 fabric). Three years later and little sister (now 5) wears the same dress in her comps. So far we've averaged 2 yrs per girl for the 2 dresses we've bought. 

[Skittl1321]

We've had a number of under 8 girls compete in leggings and a sparkly shirt. Heck- my adult synchro team went to target to buy matching shirts to wear with yoga pants for one of our costumes.   For basic skill competitions, don't spend more than $50 on a dress unless that's just something you really want to spend your money on.

I think 4 weeks is a bit short to practice a program before competition (at one 30 min lesson a week), but that is about the time frame the lower level LTS kids learn theirs in for the local competition.  There is not much to these programs though. The coach usually writes them down, and parents help them practice them when not in lesson.  Once you pass Basic 7 or so, you probably need a bit more time than that- 6 weeks?  Because it isn't just about learning and remembering the program at that point, but also learning to gracefully string together elements and present them.   

Most of the kids have music assigned to them for the first few programs. As they grow as skaters they get to start picking their music.

[~Twinkies~]

Thank you so much for the replies.  You've helped me become more comfortable with our situation, as the coaches expectations seem to be typical. 

The one area that seems a bit off the mark is the fact that she's being very over-controlling on the dress choice.  I wanted something fairly low-key and Val has a dress that I feel is fine, it's sparkly turquoise velvet with long sleeves (and I scored it on ebay for $40 - bonus!).  The coach keeps saying "When I listen to this music, I'm seeing her in green and something with a lighter feeling."  I've searched and searched and I'm not finding a dress that fits her vision, that I feel is age-appropriate or within my budget, so she's wearing the one she has.  The coach is not happy about that choice, but she'll just have to get over it.

Something interesting about our coach that I learned this week (via mom gossip) is that she's known among the coaches from other rinks for "skating down" her skaters, meaning she'll hold them back a level so they outperform their competition.  Apparently, her girls always bring home the medals and everyone in the local skating community knows it's because she holds them back.  I'm not pleased about this and I know it's true because she's doing it with Valerie.  Valerie is perfectly capable of skating a Basic 4 program, and she has her competing at a Basic 3 level.  Valerie has commented that her program is "so simple" and that she can skate much higher skills.  I can understand doing this for her first competition as she'll be dealing with nerves and performance jitters the first time out, but I won't tolerate that on an ongoing basis.

[Skittl1321]

Twinkies- what you are refering to is called "sandbagging" in the skating community.  It gives skaters very bad reputations.   One thing to know though is that as you get to the official test levels (pre-preliminary, preliminary) the skills required to pass the test do not represent the skills that are done in competition.   Your coach may not be holding your skater down by not allowing them to test when they just barely have the skills to pass, becasue they may be demolished in competition.  But if the skater is consistently winning the lower level and the coach still won't let them test up, that is a time you as a parent need to be vocal, or find a coach who better meets your style.

But IMO- keeping a Basic 4 skater to compete in Basic 3 is just silly.  Basic skills competitions are so arbitrary. I've judged many- the skills they are doing are so basic, and most skaters can do them at around the same level, so it is very difficult to place them.  There is no reason to sandbag at this level.  Although, for a first competition, it could be okay. Nerves do funny things.

[Sk8tmum]

Just reading through this. 

For a basic level comp - I've seen solos started anywhere from 4 months to 4 days before.  Depends on the coach, depends on teh skater. Some skaters can pick up choreo quickly, some take longer;some coaches like to teach elements extensively in isolation and then assemble, others like to teach elements in a solo.  It depends.

Music choice - we do not have any input, nor have we ever, and my one kid skates at the National level.  However, we may suggest a "genre" i.e. that Latin or Jazz might be nice; we might, on occasion, get 2 or 3 to choose between. However, all options are chosen by coach and choreo. As they always have good music, however, we're happy with that.

Coach has complete veto on costumes. Choreo describes what she wants, we work with her and the coach to get it.

Now, within the same rink - other kids pick their own music, their own costumes, etc.  It varies coach to coach. But, I do know that what has a competitive differentiator for our kids is that extra "level" that music and outfit have made:  this is their expertise, and it pays off.  Music is a big part of the impression on the ice.

Sandbagging ... well, that's a hard one.  I can list the coaches who sandbag in our area very easily. I can also list the parents who gossip and backbite and spread rumours about sandbagging just as easily !  It's not always "sandbagging" when kids are successful.  A coach may hold back a skater who isn't ready in terms of confidence to take a risk at a higher level - particularly for a first comp - as they want the skater to continue to be enthusiastic and eager to compete.  I only call "sandbag" when, as Skittl says, if a kid is consistently winning everything over a period of time ... not where they win, then test up to a new level where they again win, and onwards.  Some coaches want a kid to always be "hungry" and at the back of the pack ... others want them to be successful and then move on to new success ... different philosophies.

[Sk8tmum]

The one area that seems a bit off the mark is the fact that she's being very over-controlling on the dress choice.  I wanted something fairly low-key and Val has a dress that I feel is fine, it's sparkly turquoise velvet with long sleeves (and I scored it on ebay for $40 - bonus!).  The coach keeps saying "When I listen to this music, I'm seeing her in green and something with a lighter feeling."  I've searched and searched and I'm not finding a dress that fits her vision, that I feel is age-appropriate or within my budget, so she's wearing the one she has.  The coach is not happy about that choice, but she'll just have to get over it.

This isn't unusual ... many coaches are like this ... this is part of what makes or breaks a parent/coaching relationship. If the coach being this controlling is an issue for you, then, you need to talk to her about this. Explain your budget, your time, etc. If she doesn't respect your financial and logistical limitations, then, you need to know that now to keep in mind going forward.  Are you ready, for example, to push back if she suggests skates you can't afford or ice time that you can't manage? Will she work with you?  If not, you need to decide if this is the right coach for you. Ours are VERY controlling, but, they are also very respectful of what we can spend and do and work with us.

You don't want conflict within the relationship, because coach/skater really does become a relationship and you want it to be a solid one.  Our coaches, I would say, 10 years in for each of them - have molded a large part of my kids' lives and have been very strong influences and very important parts of their lives.  They  get invited to graduations, etc, before some relatives are; they are part of celebrations on scholarships, performance in orchestras - they're a part of the family! Their morals and values have contributed in no small part to the people my kids are, as well as the skaters they are, and I'm grateful to them every day.

BTW: coaches with visions often have had them in the past.  You could ask if one of her other skaters had a similar dress that you could borrow. 

[sarahspins]

This isn't unusual ... many coaches are like this ... this is part of what makes or breaks a parent/coaching relationship. If the coach being this controlling is an issue for you, then, you need to talk to her about this. Explain your budget, your time, etc. If she doesn't respect your financial and logistical limitations, then, you need to know that now to keep in mind going forward.  Are you ready, for example, to push back if she suggests skates you can't afford or ice time that you can't manage? Will she work with you?  If not, you need to decide if this is the right coach for you. Ours are VERY controlling, but, they are also very respectful of what we can spend and do and work with us.

You don't want conflict within the relationship, because coach/skater really does become a relationship and you want it to be a solid one.

I agree, there is a certain amount of give and take required to maintain a healthy coaching relationship.  Regarding the dress, it may be that your coach is simply disappointed that you didn't consult her before making a choice, it's not that what you have isn't really going to be just fine.  If this is just a basic skills comp, the dresses you see skaters in will run the gamut, from right off the rack in the pro shop all the way up to some very very expensive custom dresses - in the end, they ALL get the job done.  To be honest it's more important that your skater is comfortable at her level (meaning - not cold!) than that her dress exactly matches her coaches vision.  Programs with very clear musical themes are another issue, but it doesn't seem from your posts that is the case with your skater.

I am with skittl, in basic skills there really isn't any "need" to sandbag, but it may be that the coach just doesn't feel that her basic 4 skills are strong enough to compete at that level - often under pressure skills disappear.  Most of the "placements" in these basic skills competitions just come from who has the fewest missing elements... it usually doesn't come down to who did what better - it would be nice if that was the case.  I judged one a couple of months ago and I don't think there was a single competitor that didn't miss at least one required element, so winning a group came down to who made the fewest mistakes.  It's very common for kids to compete a level or two below their current "class" level - because their competition level is based on their last completed test level by the entry date - some kids may have surpassed that by the actual competition, but it doesn't mean they are sandbagging, it's just how the rules worked out.

[~Twinkies~]

Thank you, everyone, for your perspective.  Being so new to the sport I need all the advice I can get and sharing your feelings and experiences really helps me to put thing into context.

[sampaguita]

It may just be an issue with standards. Although your daughter can handle Basic 4 skills, they might not be of that level yet that the coach is happy with. For example, I can do inside 3-turns, but I'm not comfortable enough putting them in a program because they're not at the level that I would like them to be. They might look better than that of other skaters who are competing at my level, and other coaches may pass me for it, but my standards are my standards, and that's what's important to me.

As this is her first competition, though, I think that it's okay for her to be competing below her level. She needs something that she's comfortable with and that she can do with ease. Eventually, though, if your daughter finds that she's not progressing in the competition levels as fast as she wants to be, you might want to talk to the coach about why she can't skate up.

[karne]

I do have one piece of advice - you've already said that the coach wasn't happy with the dress. Has the subject of makeup been touched on yet? I think it would be a good idea to show the coach what you have in mind for makeup before the competition - like, the week before.

I was thinking of this because there's an 8 year old at my rink who, when she showed up to her first competition, looked like a painted doll and honestly looked...uhm...well let's just say the sort of makeup you'd expect to find at the red-light district. The coach blew his top at the mother (who, very scarily, honestly didn't see anything wrong with the makeup) at the next lesson and now makes the skater turn up in competition makeup at least three times in the week before a competition.

[~Twinkies~]

That's very good advice, karne.  Our coach did ask every skater to be in their competition dress, hair and make-up for a practice session a week before competition.  She called it "dress rehearsal."  It was a good thing she did, because we also had a girl who's mother was very heavy handed with the make-up and had a HUGE hairpiece made to go with the dress that was really over the top (the whole look had a "Vegas showgirl" feeling to it).  Neither mother nor daughter were too pleased with the coach's instructions on toning down the look, until the day of competition when they realized she would have really stood out - and not in a good way.

My daughter took home the silver medal (in a field of 3 LOL) in her first basic skills competition.  She skated a beautiful, clean program and the only reason she didn't take home the gold is that she ended about 2 seconds before her music.  We've pushed her up a level for the next competition and she's working on her new program, complete with a back-up plan in case she skates ahead of her music again! 

Thank you to everyone for sharing your advice.  I'll certainly be looking for more as she progresses.