Possible jump layouts for Bronze program?

[Skittl1321]

So I'm thinking about getting back on the ice.  Since ice dance is out (no longer have a coach), I was thinking of maybe preparing a program for a summer competition.  My test program no longer meets the requirements for bronze (too many spins) so I have to rechoreograph anyway.

Can anyone suggest some good jump layouts that maximize what the bronze level allow, while also considering that I suck at jumping.

-Four jump elements
-Jumps may be repeated only once, and only in combos.
-At least one, no more than two jump combos or sequences (one can be three jump, the other two)


I can do the following jumps:  waltz, toe, salchow.  I can do toe taps and falling leafs if necessary. I can also do a half-flip.  I am NOT doing a loop.

I am thinking
-Single salchow
-Single toe loop
-Waltz-falling leaf-toe loop
-Waltz-salchow

Is there a stronger arrangement you can think of?

[nicklaszlo]

It says "only single jumps are allowed".  I'm pretty sure the half rotation jumps are not disallowed, but do they count towards the limit?

Maybe you should consider choosing jumps based on what fits the music best.

Doing S+T would presumably increase the difficulty, but it might make it even harder to fill up your four spots.

[Skittl1321]

Nick- I am pretty certain half jumps are allowed, and count as though they were single jumps.

I have a good salchow-toe (better than my waltz toe, which is why I prefer waltz-falling leaf-toe), but since I won't do a loop (possibly can't do a loop- that was a three year battle before I took my test), it would make it very difficult to have enough other jump options.

Salchow-toe
waltz-falling leaf-toe
single salchow
single waltz 

Is that a 'better' arrangement than what I had previously?  I really don't know how 6.0 is scored to know what is 'harder'.  (I also know if I compete against any really good bronze skaters it is moot- as they'll have flips and lutzes, but often the bronze competitions around here are just pre-bronze skating up, with the bronze skaters skating very close to test.  I hope to make up for the lack of loop with my spins.)


As for what fits the music- I'd place them based on what fits the music, but to me, there is no musicality in choosing to do a toe loop vs. choosing to do a waltz jump.  Maybe I'm not a high enough level skater to see it, but even when I watch elite programs, the jump they do doesn't seem to make a difference with the music- rather where they do it and what entry they use.


Another question- can waltz-falling leaf-toe still be done as a sequence now that sequences generally say no turns?  It requires a turn, but it is also a required sequence in USFSA's freestyle LTS- so why would they teach it if it can't be used?

[CaraSkates]

I don't think waltz/falling leaf/toe counts as a sequence anymore.

What about dressing up some of the entrances into jumps? In my artistic, I did falling leaf/mazurka/flip. Only the flip counted but it was fun to watch and fit the music well (my artistic is very bouncy/fun music). You could do something like falling leaf/mazkurka/toe loop. I think having sal/toe is good because it is the hardest combination and therefore worth more.

[Skittl1321]

I can't do a mazurka  

I guess I could always just do waltz-toe, but that's a bummer because I'm more apt to cheat that one. 

I really wonder why USFS still requires the falling leaf sequence in the freestyle LTS levels if it basically isn't a thing anymore.

[CaraSkates]

You skate CW right? I am trying to flip this around in my head...what about falling leaf/LFI3/toe tap/waltz? Could really do any of the jumps out of the falling leaf/toe tap.

[Skittl1321]

You skate CW right? I am trying to flip this around in my head...what about falling leaf/LFI3/toe tap/waltz? Could really do any of the jumps out of the falling leaf/toe tap.

I'll give that a try on Saturday.  I've never done a falling leaf except after a jump, so I'll have to play.  Thanks for the suggestion.

[nicklaszlo]

Toe walley?

[Skittl1321]

Does that count? Isn't it an unlisted jump? 

Either way, I haven't even tried one in like 4 years, so I doubt it is among my available jumps...  I am NOT a good jumper- the ones I listed in the first post are pretty much what I have, I just need to arrange them.

[Icicle]

How about waltz-half loop-salchow? Or waltz-toe step-salchow?

By the way, your loop looked fine in your test program. Perhaps, you could resurrect it?

[sk8lady]

It looks as though you are required to do the Bronze well-balanced program requirements. The "remarks" for this in the competition rules book says that "all elements must meet the general criteria and basic requirements in order to be counted."

If they follow the rules, you need four single jumps--which are by definition NOT half jumps--so you need to choose four jumps from the toe loop, salchow, loop, flip, half loop, lutz, or axel. If they don't care about that, they would likely not care about whether anything else fits the appropriate definitions either, so you probably don't need to worry about doing the right combo or sequence, either--just do what works for you!

I'm doing a comp at bronze level and to meet the well-balanced program requirements, my coach put in: toe loop; salchow; salchow-toe loop; loop; flip; sit spin; backspin; camel; and straight line footwork. I feel your pain over the loop, which I think is the worst invention since panty hose, but my coach assures me that it has to be in my program to be even remotely competitive!!

[Doubletoe]

I can do the following jumps:  waltz, toe, salchow.  I can do toe taps and falling leafs if necessary. I can also do a half-flip.  I am NOT doing a loop.

I am thinking
-Single salchow
-Single toe loop
-Waltz-falling leaf-toe loop
-Waltz-salchow

I think this selection of jump elements is a very good choice if you don't have a loop, flip or lutz.  There's just no way the official ISU rules can be applied at Adult Bronze level, which is why they don't judge under IJS and which is why you really don't need to worry about them. 

The fact is, under IJS rules, your proposed jumps would count as a single salchow, a single toeloop, then another single toeloop and another single salchow (meaning you're repeating both jumps without doing them in combination).  If you wanted to do only legitimate ISU jumps and sequences, you would have to do this:

* salchow - side toe tap - waltz - toeloop (a 2-jump sequence)
* salchow
* toeloop
* You could also do any combination of waltz jump, falling leaf, half flip and side toe tap as a "sequence" but it would only count as connecting moves, not as a 4th jump element, since none of these are listed jumps.

As sk8lady pointed out, for Adult Bronze, they aren't going to apply certain ISU jump rules (like no 3-turns within a jump sequence) when they are clearly not applying others (waltz jumps don't count as jumps),  so I would just stick with your original plan and do them well!

[nicklaszlo]

Maybe I'm not a high enough level skater to see it, but even when I watch elite programs, the jump they do doesn't seem to make a difference with the music- rather where they do it and what entry they use.

I think that's because elite skaters prioritize base value over expressing the music, not because the music can't tell you what jump would look best.

[fsk8r]

I think this selection of jump elements is a very good choice if you don't have a loop, flip or lutz.  There's just no way the official ISU rules can be applied at Adult Bronze level, which is why they don't judge under IJS and which is why you really don't need to worry about them. 

Just so you know, they judge Pre-Bronze and Bronze under IJS in Europe. Program requirements are pretty much the same as your Well Balanced requirements.

My coach emphasises that things done well count more than things done badly. So if you're confident with your salchow, toe-loop and waltz I wouldn't worry too much about the missing loops and flips (if you can do one so much the better).
What are you thinking of doing spins wise? My coach is currently putting the emphasis on having harder spins because most people end up with the same jumps (have injury limitations, etc.) so having variations on your spins can make you look different and stand out. It's yet to be seen whether this theory works for me, but I just thought I'd put the suggestion out there. 

[Skittl1321]

What are you thinking of doing spins wise?

Right now I am thinking camel-upright-change backspin and then either a sit spin with a change of position or just a single backspin.  I'd like to do the sit spin with a change of position, but I don't really sit in my sit spins (though when I change position I tend to get lower, if I don't fall over- it needs work) so I need to tape it a few times and see what it looks like.  I wish we still got 3 spins.

[Skittl1321]

-never mind-

[Skittl1321]

By the way, your loop looked fine in your test program. Perhaps, you could resurrect it?

No it didn't, but thanks for humoring me.   And no- one of the conditions of taking that test was that I would never be doing a loop again.  When I had my coach I was working to get a flip, but it didn't happen (only worked for 6 months on it- loop took over 4 years, so I didn't expect it too) and I don't have a coach anymore, so I'm not going to teach myself new jumps.

[Skittl1321]

I'm doing a comp at bronze level and to meet the well-balanced program requirements, my coach put in: toe loop; salchow; salchow-toe loop; loop; flip; sit spin; backspin; camel; and straight line footwork. I feel your pain over the loop, which I think is the worst invention since panty hose, but my coach assures me that it has to be in my program to be even remotely competitive!!

You need to make sure your coach is working from a current rulebook.  You have too many spins and too many jumps listed.  2 spins (you have 3) and 4 jump passes (you have 5). IIRC, these were the previous allowances.

I'm not too worried about being competitive.  Many of the competitions around here bronze programs are just PB skaters skating up (because PB is often no-test skaters).  I've never won one, but as a PB skater I often got 1st place ordinals in Bronze.  I'm never going to be competitive nationally, I just took the test so I'd be ELIGIBLE to go to nationals, where I'll gladly take last place.  But still, I want to do the best program I can do.   

[Skittl1321]

Okay, supposing I do my 'loop' (which is more of a 'bless her heart, she's trying to do a loop')

Salchow-toe loop
Loop
Salchow
Toe-loop

Would it be better to do a waltz-toe loop or waltz-salchow, just so- if the judges do look at that as a combo, I have two combos, and if they don't consider waltz jumps to be jumps I have a fun connecting move?  Is one of those considered 'harder' than the other?  I think I'm leaning to waltz-salchow.

[davincisop]

In my bronze I know they wanted to see a loop, even though in the requirements it does not say a loop.

But I can't speak for the general requirements of it. I tested just before they changed it, and because I did not have a loop in it (three separate jumps, which apparently means 3 completely different jumps) I did not pass, even though I landed 3 for the judge.

[Skittl1321]

In my bronze I know they wanted to see a loop, even though in the requirements it does not say a loop.

But I can't speak for the general requirements of it. I tested just before they changed it, and because I did not have a loop in it (three separate jumps, which apparently means 3 completely different jumps) I did not pass, even though I landed 3 for the judge.

This is for competition, not for test.  I have already passed the test, and did a loop then.  (You don't need to do a loop- but you need to do either a loop, a flip, or a lutz.  Most people go for loop because it is easiest.)  Sorry you didn't pass, but yes, the three jumps need to be distinct jumps. I would be really upset with my coach if they didn't know that.

[sk8lady]

You need to make sure your coach is working from a current rulebook.  You have too many spins and too many jumps listed.  2 spins (you have 3) and 4 jump passes (you have 5). IIRC, these were the previous allowances.

I messaged you the long boring explanation for my elements--the short version is that for comp purposes at Bronze level, the salchow is replaced by the sal-toe, but the sal will make a glorious return after next year's AN when I add more music to turn the program into a Silver Free for test--that gives me four jumps, although I'm not sure they would dock me for doing MORE than I needed in a competition. Same for the spins--I will need that many for Silver Free, the camel will be a camel-sit, and since the sit is my best spin it seems unlikely they would dock me more points for unbalanced choreography than they would add for a really good sit spin! My coach is pretty sharp and I trust her to put my choreo together right.

[Skittl1321]

although I'm not sure they would dock me for doing MORE than I needed in a competition.

That's what they do dock you for.  The requirements in the rulebooks are maximums- you are always allowed to do less.

According to this: http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultSinglesWBPChart.pdf It is a two-tenths deduction for any element exceeding the max allowed.  I'm not clear whether or not they still 'count' the element that wasn't allowed, so the idea that it is better to take the deduction for a good element, it is my understanding that the third spin just won't be considered, and you'd be deducted.  Maybe a judge will respond here.

Why not just skate up to silver locally?

[sk8lady]

I am not inclined to skate up to Silver as I am not really at the Silver level yet, or I would be taking the test.
As I said, I am not going to worry. You will note that the deduction is a "should" rather than a "must" and therefore is not mandatory, in my professional opinion. And quite frankly, I trust my coach more than I trust you--and that's all I'm going to say about it!

[Skittl1321]

You should trust your coach more than a stranger on the internet.  I guess my final comment on the matter is that I find it really disrespectful of your competitors to intentionally do more than what is allowed in the level in the hopes the judges don't remember to take the deduction and reward you for the elements.

I have really nice spins- I'd do really well to have 3 of them in my program, because I spin better than most of the other bronze skaters in the area.  It would make me look like a much better skater to have more spins than jumps in my program.  But the rules say I can only do 2.  So I only do 2.