Figure skating of today...thoughts?

irenar5 · February 16, 2013, 02:37:48 PM

It has been discussed before how the dropping of figures as a discipline led to detriment in the sport. I personally enjoy watching figure skating of today much more than of years/decades ago.

Crossovers are so much more powerful and have better extension, arm/body movements are much more balletic and elegant. Transitions are so much more intricate and inventive.

Air position is more esthetically pleasing and it also appears that the skaters skate more into the ice as opposed to floating on top of it.

All in all, as a spectator, I feel that the sport is more interesting to watch now. I do miss the drama of the 6.0 system, though :-)

What are your thoughts on the state of figure skating of today vs past years?

treesprite · February 16, 2013, 05:29:37 PM

There weren't year-round rinks everywhere back then, so there was a lot less competition, meaning that skaters did not have to be perfect to come out in first place.

JSM · February 16, 2013, 06:19:25 PM

There have been a lot of changes in this sport over the past decade or so, some are definitely related to figures, though some of it is simply natural evolution that happens over time.

Losing figures has definitely altered training, and I have to wonder if this has lead to more injuries (and shorter careers) for skaters. Not only has technique changed, skaters spend more time training harder jumps and combinations, which is pretty hard on the body.

ONskater74 · February 16, 2013, 09:29:21 PM

I'm not a big fan of televised sports, don't even own a TV actually, but I watched a few programs from the 2013 Canadians on youtube. If you take what is new and edgy today with what is new and edgy 50 years ago, say Donald Jackson's World's winning program, There are similarities, but the differences are striking. Don Jacksons footwork was lightning fast, he threw in umpteen jumps, some killer spins, and never put a foot wrong. The 2013 program is based on standing in one spot gyrating and gesticulating aimlessly to the music, then skating aggressively...like breakdancing, then attempting a quad and almost falling, then attempting another and almost falling, neither was clean...
There is more to artistry than jumping and gyrating...
I enjoy a slow skater...one who floats over the ice...graceful elegant, artistic. Like any art different folks appreciate different genres and mediums, I guess. For me, watching a master execute a clean figure with precision and flow is Art...like sacred geometry.

DrillingSkills · February 16, 2013, 09:35:03 PM

Quote from: JSM on February 16, 2013, 06:19:25 PM
Losing figures has definitely altered training, and I have to wonder if this has lead to more injuries (and shorter careers) for skaters. Not only has technique changed, skaters spend more time training harder jumps and combinations, which is pretty hard on the body.

Something I've heard quite a bit is that losing figures has meant less edge control and, in practice, that's affected how much time it takes people to get their (single) Axel, since they're not in complete control of that forward edge. I'd guess it may also have affected how many skaters have tendencies to flutz or lip.

ONskater74 · February 16, 2013, 10:02:32 PM

"The point he gets from doing the quads allow him to make mistakes" - commentator a few seconds in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZciKUG4zgo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alrsemq_mzQ

As I say many similarities, but do you not think a totally clean triple or double is more artistically pleasing that a stumbled quad? The two clean triples make more impact than a fizzling four? I dunno. I'd rather a clean program.

PrettySk8Dress · February 16, 2013, 10:05:21 PM

Quote from: irenar5 on February 16, 2013, 02:37:48 PM

All in all, as a spectator,

I do miss the drama of the 6.0 system, though :

I agree, a lot of the drama and intrigue of the scoring of the various disciplines is gone under the IJS system. I noticed that during the showing of the 2013 USFS Nationals on TV. It used to be that when the scores were shown after a skaters performance, that the drama and build-up as the individual judges scores were shown or reveled was just awesome. You could feel the tension and audience reaction to each score as it was shown, something like this---

. . . . 5.7 . . . . ( some applause, sports announcer explaining as to maybe why that score was given . . . . ) . . . . 5.4 . . . . ( hushed tone, some booing from the audience, " Is that judge crazy ? " ) . . . . 5.9 . . . . ( wild cheers and pandemonium breaking loose for several moments ) . . . . ( audience gasping as to what the next score will be . . . . ) . . . . 5.8 . . . . ( someone screams . . . .). . . . ( what next ? , what next ?, I can't stand it . . . . ) . . . .

. . . .

But all of that wonderful angst and drama is over ! There is a blank box on the screen, then an unknown number is shown. That's all ! ( " WTF ? How did that happen ? You mean that the skater won by someone posting a three or four digit number ? That's all ? WTF ? " ). I was really disappointed by the lack of any understanding or commentary offered about the IJS scoring by the sports announcers, or by anybody else, at the Nationals. All that excitement, pain and pleasure, all down the drain, thanks to IJS, IMO.

ONskater74 · February 16, 2013, 10:23:44 PM

It really begs the question: What material difference does it make under either scoring system whether a skater is unartistic and racks up points during Compulsory Figures, or whether they rack up points by just throwing in as many triples and quads as they can good or otherwise? Is it just competitive showjumping? The fact that a skater can do almost nothing of artistic merit and yet have staggeringly high technical marks based on jumping alone...he fails to land several jumps cleanly... what have we really gained in net value to the sport?

irenar5 · February 17, 2013, 12:15:20 AM

While I did not like Reynolds' skate, I did not care much for Don Jackson's, either. I would take any beautiful double or triple over a stumbled quad, but to me Jackson's jumps do not look beautiful. There is pretty much running crossovers with straight stick arms into jumps. To me personally it is not artistry.

I would think many people would agree that Reynolds' win was a big surprise. Besides, I was not really talking about judging, but rather esthetically pleasing qualities of skating.

John Curry's figures are an incredible spectacle to watch. Amazing blade and body control- I do not dispute this. However, from a purely "pleasing on the eyes" point, I much prefer current figure skating.

Check out Peggy Fleming's skate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdPKgg8SGys

Even novice ladies, in my opinion, have much more elegance today.

sampaguita · February 17, 2013, 07:33:20 AM

ONskater74: 2013 Canadian Nationals is not representative of the entire world of figure skating. The 2010 Olympics would be a better sample. In my opinion, Kim Yu Na and Mao Asada are absolutely marvelous skaters. Beautiful jumps, beautiful artistry, beautiful skating.

I loved skaters of the past though -- I'm sure Peggy Fleming would be doing beautiful triples if she were born decades later. The sport has evolved, I think for the better. The "lack of skating skills" that people notice came from the elimination of figures from training, not elimination of figures from competition (IMO, the latter should not necessarily lead to the former). In fact, it was mentioned in another thread that many top skaters today with the best skating skills (ex. Patrick Chan, Kim Yuna) have actually done figures, although probably not to the same extent as skaters did in the past.

ONskater74 · February 17, 2013, 08:41:34 AM

Hey, different strokes for different folks

Doubletoe · February 20, 2013, 05:41:10 PM

I agree with you, irenar5. So many people idealize the skating of the past, but whenever I look at it, all I see is that there were a lot of crossovers, a lot of counter-clockwise skating, and a lot of repeated jumps. I also see that the footwork is fast but extremely easy. While I do believe figures taught great edge quality and could benefit today's skaters as well, I think 6.0 was a system that failed to push skaters in the areas of choreography, footwork and transitions.

ONskater74 · February 20, 2013, 06:54:21 PM

It would be interesting to see some hard numbers from TV networks comparing overall figure skating viewership over the years. Is it declining, increasing, staying stable? I reviewed a book elsewhere that was written in 1995/96 and it was the writer's view then that figure skating was "The Hottest Thing" ever and it would eventually dominate sports network programming.

I really have no comment on the artistic merit of Don Jackson's skating, All I'm saying is he knew his limits, while still pushing them, and he skated clean and won. I was appalled at the commentators remarks about Kevin Reynolds mistakes, that they were compensated for by landing some clean quadruple jumps. It is no different than 40 years ago saying a skater can freeskate poorly and bore the audience to tears but still win because they had such a huge lead in compulsory figures. Both scoring systems seem to me to be flawed in that they can manipulated by skaters who excel in figures back then, or jumping today. While spectacular on-ice accidents and hell-bent-for-leather jumping may be exciting for some, even the majority of, TV spectators, is it really taking skating in the right direction when winning any competition becomes the exclusive right reserved for the elite few who can jump? Where does this leave the vast majority of skaters who might otherwise be expressive and artistic skaters, but who are thwarted when doing triples and quads becomes the benchmark of what constitutes a "good skater". Has the pendulum swung out of control in the opposite direction from where it was 50-60 years ago? How many years are these young-twenties skaters going to be able to land these quads before they damage something? How many aspiring skaters will injure themselves attempting to master more and more difficult jumps earlier and earlier?
I take the long view. A skater should be able to enjoy the sport their whole life long. To reduce technical merit down to just landing difficult jumps? It leaves me cold. I'm not opposed to change, I'm not interested in turning back the clock. There is more to skating than landing jumps. The work of choreographers is so much more advanced, the skaters have so many more advantages today in developing a graceful artistic style of their own, and this is good.
I'm just cautious, that's all. Let us see in 40 more years where figure skating is, and compare notes again.

SynchKat · February 20, 2013, 08:19:44 PM

Don Jackson still skates nowadays and is pretty special to watch....just saying!

I know that's not what this topic is about but I think his love of the sport is incredible. And comparing skaters of today and yesterday is like comparing apples and oranges. I do think edge control was a lot better with figures but then again most coaches grew up with figures and can instill those qualities they learned from figures in their students if they try.

Sunnyside_Skater · February 21, 2013, 12:07:23 AM

I love this conversation!

I remember watching the 1988 Olympics - the "Battle of the Brians", Katarina Witt, Gordeeva & Grinkov....I was captivated by both the artistry and the technical aspects. To me, that was the height of figure skating at its best. There was such a beauty and artistry in their programs. I don't enjoy watching figure skating on TV as much today because it seems like it's just jump, jump, jump....

ls99 · February 21, 2013, 09:07:51 PM

I rarely watch competitive skating on TV. The few times I did, got bored and annoyed in short order, and turned the tube off.

Seems all they do is setting up for jumps by skating furiously. The music is playing, yet there is only an occasional coincidence of movement in sync with the music. Might as well turn off the music and let the commentators prattle on.

Do like exhibitions and dedicated artistic skating. At times the choreography is really good. When the choreography actually has good expression of the music, and the skater artfully presents it, it is truly enjoyable. Wonders never cease.

I do spend a fairly good amount of time scouring youtube for good skating. Recently I stumbled on some long ago performances of Moiseeva and Minenkov. I'd like to be able to skate, say 20% as well as Minenkov. Next to John Curry, he is one I like to emulate. Tough at my age that is a bit optimistic, nonetheless I do give it my best even with the limited skills. Maintaining good posture just gliding along, gets me lots of unsolicited good comments and compliments from skating moms. Then I hear them tell their little ones, that is how it should look like.

sampaguita · March 17, 2013, 04:49:45 AM

THIS is a breath of fresh air for those who feel that skating is all about the jumps. I actually like it at least as much as Vancouver. Congrats Yuna!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDRtKl_2ajw

techskater · March 17, 2013, 09:04:13 AM

Sampa, some fans dumped on that performance last night as "workman-like", "boring" and "meh" (not me, personally), so it really is in the eye of the beholder

ONskater74 · March 17, 2013, 11:52:53 AM

Okay... not about the jumps? Skate to one end jump, skate to the other end jump, skate back to the other end jump..., then 4 minutes spent replaying each jump in slow motion?

sarahspins · March 17, 2013, 03:15:59 PM

Quote from: ONskater74 on March 17, 2013, 11:52:53 AM
Okay... not about the jumps? Skate to one end jump, skate to the other end jump, skate back to the other end jump..., then 4 minutes spent replaying each jump in slow motion?

It's not just about the jumps, but what's going on in between.. Yuna makes it all look way too easy.

irenar5 · March 17, 2013, 06:18:17 PM

QuoteOkay... not about the jumps? Skate to one end jump, skate to the other end jump, skate back to the other end jump..., then 4 minutes spent replaying each jump in slow motion?

Without jumps freestyle skating would be ice dance- and we already have that discipline. Anyone who has ever tried jumps, knows what a feat of athleticism they are! Figure skating is a sport first and foremost, so we need to have a distinct measure of athletic ability.

Besides, jumps add so much drama to the competition!

sampaguita · March 18, 2013, 10:22:49 AM

It's what goes BETWEEN the jumps that's special for me. The slight nuances in movement, the steps. Of course the jumps are wonderful, but this is NOTHING like men's skating. I watched Kevin Reynolds and all I can see are his quads. Well, Patrick Chan is an exception -- I prefer everything else other than his jumps. :p

Skittl1321 · March 18, 2013, 10:30:00 AM

Quote from: ONskater74 on February 20, 2013, 06:54:21 PM
It would be interesting to see some hard numbers from TV networks comparing overall figure skating viewership over the years. Is it declining, increasing, staying stable? I reviewed a book elsewhere that was written in 1995/96 and it was the writer's view then that figure skating was "The Hottest Thing" ever and it would eventually dominate sports network programming.

It is very difficult to compare TV numbers from now to the past. First- even as recent as the 80s, and possibly 90s, having more than a couple of handfuls of networks was rare, a decade earlier you just had a very few choices, so for the most part, people watched what was on. Yes- they watched less TV, but during 'family TV hour', whatever was on, got watched. Now there are 100+ choices of things to watch, so viewership of just about everything is down.

Then you have the issue of how media is delivered today- many people don't watch traditional TV at all, but get their media from the Internet. They may get it from a TV stream (like how I watched World's - from Latvia) or they may get it from Youtube. Those numbers dont' get counted in any ratings.

I do think Figure Skating in the US is down in viewership, but I think a lot of that has to do with how it is marketed. NBC has the contracts- and their "sports network" is rare in most cable packages. If ABC had it, I'm almost certain it would be on ESPN, or ESPN2, or ESPN the Ocho- I'm thinking it is still probably more popular that pool or bowling...

Doubletoe · March 18, 2013, 01:51:34 PM

I agree with Skittl. Figure skating viewership was at its peak in the 90's because we had a reigning Olympic gold medalist lady (Kristi Yamaguchi) and the huge Kerrigan-Harding scandal, as well as an exciting new champion, Michelle Kwan. Before that, figure skating did not have a huge audience, but people tend to forget that. Still, there was a decent sized audience just because it got televised and there weren't as many viewing options back then. People either had only network TV, basic cable, or basic cable plus some premium movie channels. Now people have over 100 TV channels, not to mention everything available for viewing view online streaming. The pie is getting sliced into a lot more pieces and it has nothing to do with anything going on in the sport; it has to do with the media market. Although I will say NBC shot itself in the foot by not broadcasting live.

icedancer · March 18, 2013, 02:00:41 PM

Quote from: Doubletoe on March 18, 2013, 01:51:34 PM
I agree with Skittl. Figure skating viewership was at its peak in the 90's because we had a reigning Olympic gold medalist lady (Kristi Yamaguchi) and the huge Kerrigan-Harding scandal, as well as an exciting new champion, Michelle Kwan. Before that, figure skating did not have a huge audience, but people tend to forget that. Still, there was a decent sized audience just because it got televised and there weren't as many viewing options back then. People either had only network TV, basic cable, or basic cable plus some premium movie channels. Now people have over 100 TV channels, not to mention everything available for viewing view online streaming. The pie is getting sliced into a lot more pieces and it has nothing to do with anything going on in the sport; it has to do with the media market. Although I will say NBC shot itself in the foot by not broadcasting live.

Oh yeah - I will double that about NBC!!!

The times now remind me of the 60s when there was only a little bit of televised skating - it would be at the end of the Saturday afternoon "Wide World of Sports" - they would show the top three of mens and ladies and maybe Pairs if there was anything interesting (like the Kaufmans) - otherwise there was no skating on TV. Period.

People are tired of skating I think (of course we aren't but we are skaters)! Some of my friends are really surprised that I am still into skating and they still want to talk about Paul Wylie, or maybe Tonya Harding - that was their heyday - and while it was great then I think the market got oversaturated with skating shows at that point.

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Figure skating of today...thoughts?