Top skaters with best/worst skating skills

[sampaguita]

Let's talk about the world's top skaters -- those who have won a medal in some major event. Especially for singles, there's a lot of focus on jumps and spins. But who among our best jumpers/spinners have the best/worst skating skills (EDIT: I mean edges, turns, footwork)? And how bad are the worst skating skills?

Men:
Best - Patrick Chan (he's the undisputed king of skating skills, right?)
Worst -

Ladies:
Best - Yuna Kim (at least that's what the commentators said....dunno if this is right), Michelle Kwan (lots of people want to be like her)
Worst - Sasha Cohen??? (that's what I hear)

Pairs:
Best -
Worst -

Dance:
Best -
Worst - <I think no top ice dancer has bad skating skills though>

[irenar5]

Men:
Daisuke Takahashi

Ladies:
Mao Asada

I don't really follow pairs or dance

[sampaguita]

Men:
Daisuke Takahashi

Ladies:
Mao Asada

I don't really follow pairs or dance

irenar: would that be best or worst?

[jjane45]

irenar: would that be best or worst?

Anyone who dares to put Daisuke and Mao into the worst skating skills category will be prosecuted. Patrick Chan and Carolina Kostner obviously rank high as well.

Let's talk about the world's top skaters -- those who have won a medal in some major event.

Do you mean major international medal? What about GP? Nationals? It's hard to say who is the worst, anyone to makes it to senior moves can't be that bad. Relatively in the US, Ryan Bradley was usually accused of scratchy skating, so was Caroline Zhang criticized for lack of speed.

[platyhiker]

For ladies worst, I nominate Surya Bonaly - especially when she first appeared on the international scene.  She would change very abruptly from her transition elements to a very obvious jump set up; she really lacked in the "grace" and "flow" departments.

[irenar5]

irenar: would that be best or worst?

the best!   I did not read attentively, apparently :-)

It is surprising to me about Sasha Cohen- I have always liked her style and grace. 
ITA about Surya Bonaly, though!   

I also never much cared for Plushenko's transitions- lots of jump preparation without much skating in between.

[sampaguita]

I meant skating skills in terms of deep edges, flow, control -- pretty much the "skating skills" in the PCS category.

[Willowway]

ITA on Bonaly - most of her skating was on the flat, and it was notable at the time. Not good.

Wondrous, wondrous stroking and edges - Katia Gordeeva is, for me, a world apart. I could watch her stroke around the rink for hours (if she would), nothing else, just stroking! I don't think anyone in the eligible ranks has basic skills as pure as hers - they don't teach it that way anymore. Of course she is now teaching little ones so let's see what happens there!

Gorgeous, silent edges - Yuka Sato. You cannot hear her blades at all. Magnificent.

I did notice in her show programs last year that Joannie Rochette has incredibly deep edges for a singles skater - lovely to watch that.

I hate the way Jeff Buttle uses his shoulders when he skates but from the knee down he is a work of art - gorgeous edges and foot positions. So elegant, nothing sloppy.

Strong stroking and the ability to cover more real estate with one perfect crossover than anyone - Ilia. Ilia can also sustain any edge, with the rest of his body going off in all sorts of challenging directions, longer than anyone I've ever seen - it's really quite amazing.
Of course the height of the jumps but that's obvious.

Chan's skating skills are gorgeous but his programs are (for obvious reasons) so jam-packed, frenetically full of elements that it distracts from how very wonderful his basic skills are - if he could make things simpler (which you can't do with COP) and slow down a bit, we could really enjoy seeing that. But that's not COP...(don't get me started)

I actually think Daisuke's skills are a touch, only a touch, less controlled than Chan's but I love Dai more as a artist so I'll happily gasp at anything he does.

I noticed up close at several shows (and especially in the rehearsals) what amazingly pure dance skills Peter Tchernychev still has. Everything is aligned so beautifully in a very classic way. If I knew Scott Moir's work up close as well I'm sure I'd say the same thing. But I've had the good fortune of seeing a lot over the years of Ilia, Katia, Yuka, Peter and others in rehearsal many times and it's a privilege to see such accomplished athletes work up close. Also interesting to see them really work on basics, like crossovers, just like everybody else only theirs are prettier - but they work at it still.

While there are some brilliant skaters eligible right now, I'm still a sucker for the old school of Russian skating and the skills they stressed. My age I guess. The post-Soviet Russian school that is in evidence now doesn't thrill me one bit - pretty sloppy mess compared to the old guard.

Speaking of the old guard, if you'd like to see something simple(but really hard), sensual, lovely skills, great speed and gorgeous flow, look at Usova and Zhulin (with hair) in "Blues for Klook" - still wonderful stuff after all these years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Txih0umNOo

[sarahspins]

For ladies worst, I nominate Surya Bonaly - especially when she first appeared on the national scene.  She would change very abruptly from her transition elements to a very obvious jump set up; she really lacked in the "grace" and "flow" departments.

I agree.. I don't know why Sasha would have been nominated as 'worst'.  There are a lot of skaters out there with iffy jump technique who actually have very GOOD basic skating skills and edgework... as well as natural grace on the ice, something a lot of skaters lack.

I'm not a Chan fan and I personally don't think his skating is "all that" - I think for a time he was exceptionally good at maximizing the COP in his programs, which combined with consistency resulted in a long line of success... but this season so far his consistency has faltered and he hasn't been able to stay on top.

[techskater]

Sasha is nominated because she wasn't particularly fast nor did she have deep edges. 

Bonaly...worst by far.

Kim has excellent skating skills as does Kostner.

[Cush]

Although she's been having problems lately, I've always loved looking at Alissa Czisny. I think she's so graceful.

[AgnesNitt]

How Surya Bonaly ever competed succesfully is beyond me.

Watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHKTKu4j6U

[karne]

Sasha and Ilia! Two of my favourite Russians! Mandatory: #sashawuzrobbed

Phew, the two examples in that video were shocking. People say Plushenko is bad, but those two ladies made him look like Patrick Chan.

[sampaguita]

How Surya Bonaly ever competed succesfully is beyond me.

Watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHKTKu4j6U

"This is a good example of a skater without flow." -- lmfao at this! What a way to introduce someone.

[sarahspins]

"This is a good example of a skater without flow." -- lmfao at this! What a way to introduce someone.

I know, I laughed.. the Tonya Harding bit was not so flattering either

[sampaguita]

I know, I laughed.. the Tonya Harding bit was not so flattering either

Either the scriptwriters didn't know the nuances of English, or they just were plain rude.   "This is an example of a skater without good flow" would have been sufficient.

I mean, these skaters are MEDALISTS in ISU competitions. You mean the ISU were giving medals to skaters without good skating skills??? What's wrong with the ISU? 

[AgnesNitt]

Either the scriptwriters didn't know the nuances of English, or they just were plain rude.   "This is an example of a skater without good flow" would have been sufficient.

I mean, these skaters are MEDALISTS in ISU competitions. You mean the ISU were giving medals to skaters without good skating skills??? What's wrong with the ISU? 

Well, watch Scott Hamilton's comments in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTQ5ilIvjNE

[Skittl1321]

I mean, these skaters are MEDALISTS in ISU competitions. You mean the ISU were giving medals to skaters without good skating skills??? What's wrong with the ISU? 

Yes- they are.  Because skating skills are just one component of the many things that make up PCS, and not a part of the technical component (except in it's ability to allow you to do techinical elements.)

There is no one in the world who will say Surya Bonaly had good skating skills.  She won medals at worlds.  Watch her and it is clear her skating skills are awful.  The problem is, she clearly had something else (jumps) that others at the time did not.

There are skaters who win medals with terrible transitions.  With terrible speed.  Etc.  But if it's all bad, you aren't going to win.  However, if it is all superior, you just might, even with multiple falls (see: Patrick Chan.  His components are so superior it took awhile for others to catch up with him, so he had a 2+ fall cushion for awhile.  It doesn't seem to be there anymore because others have gotten better.)

[sampaguita]

Well, if there's anything that went better after elimination of figures, it's that we see better jumps.

My point in my previous post was, the scriptwriter didn't have to put down Bonaly so much. Of course skaters would understand that her skating skills are really bad (toe pushing at Worlds???), but it's one thing to emphasize it on an official video like that.

Or maybe it's just a cultural difference...

[sarahspins]

Watch her and it is clear her skating skills are awful.  The problem is, she clearly had something else (jumps) that others at the time did not.

Agreed, and it's not as if we simply look back on it now and realize how bad her skating was - it was bad then, but she had the jumps and could do more in most programs than a lot of the other ladies did, and that's made much a bulk of the scores back then - less emphasis was placed on good skating and more on how many triples could be done.  At least now with TES and PCS those "kinds" of skaters basically eliminate themselves from competition unless they make improvements... because the poor skating skill will effect both TES in addition to the PCS, and put a skater at so much of a disadvantage that they won't be able to make up for it elsewhere.  This is why you see skaters who may have falls and other "major" mistakes still score well and come out ahead of skaters who skated "clean" programs but without the same quality to their skating.

Either the scriptwriters didn't know the nuances of English, or they just were plain rude.

Well, considering that one of them was banned from competition and the other could never be successful under the COP now, I don't think it's necessarily rude, they are valid examples and a good way to point out why things have changed.

[Skittl1321]

Well, considering that one of them was banned from competition and the other could never be successful under the COP now, I don't think it's necessarily rude, they are valid examples and a good way to point out why things have changed.

I did notice in one of the other videos (sureness?) they used a young skater rather than an elite and phrased it very nicely- "this is a developing skater who has not yet developed sureness of the blade".  I would like to know what an elite skater without sureness looks like though...   In one of the videos they showed a SBS of Virtue/Moir and another couple who I didn't recognize doing a compulsory dance and they talked about how even though they were doing the same steps obviously one was a lot better than the other.  Must be super sad to be that other team...even if the comparision is one of the very best.

[AgnesNitt]

There's one of the ISU videos, I think it's the one on complexity, where the only two skaters are Boitano and Orser. I assume that's because the modern rule system means the programs tend to have the same skills and don't have interesting 'little steps' like mazurkas, walleys and so on. I miss big floaty waltz jumps.

[icedancer]

Agreed, and it's not as if we simply look back on it now and realize how bad her skating was - it was bad then, but she had the jumps and could do more in most programs than a lot of the other ladies did, and that's made much a bulk of the scores back then - less emphasis was placed on good skating and more on how many triples could be done.  At least now with TES and PCS those "kinds" of skaters basically eliminate themselves from competition unless they make improvements... because the poor skating skill will effect both TES in addition to the PCS, and put a skater at so much of a disadvantage that they won't be able to make up for it elsewhere.  This is why you see skaters who may have falls and other "major" mistakes still score well and come out ahead of skaters who skated "clean" programs but without the same quality to their skating.

Well, considering that one of them was banned from competition and the other could never be successful under the COP now, I don't think it's necessarily rude, they are valid examples and a good way to point out why things have changed.

Plus this is basically a training video for judges and maybe coaches etc., as to what is considered "good flow" - so they have to point out standards of what is not good flow. 

As far as Surya Bonaly goes, she was an interesting skater who had a very athletic, raw quality about her skating and yes, she had the jumps - the American commentators were constantly dinging her skating skills but she still reached a high level because of her spins and jumps - in the "old days" of 6.0 the 2nd mark was the "Performance/Execution" makr, or what was called "Artistic" - but the judges could fudge this mark a bit (or a lot sometimes) if they liked a certain skater - I remember that the European judged really liked her because she was so exotic... or so they said.

I saw her much later as a show skater and she was a great deal of fun to watch.

Not sure why Tonya HArding was in that video (and yes she was banned for life but not because of her skating skills) - she was one of those skaters that was pretty amazing to watch but when she got nervous she would just start "pumping" around the ice to get from one place to another.  She was not known for her artistry but, well, she did land that triple axel in competition which even before the days of GOE and all of that really added to her programs.

I would challenge anyone who hasn't done it to attend a world or even national level competition to go to at least one event if you can and watch all of the skaters in all of the groups - it is really obvious who are the best skaters - even without the numbers -

[retired]

Scott Hamilton's comments are  and indeed so true. 

[sampaguita]

Scott Hamilton's comments are  and indeed so true. 

I don't really agree -- he seems to be more concerned about the rinks making money. And as we have seen years later, it didn't kill the sport.