Why are crossovers so hard???

[sampaguita]

Doesn't matter if it's forward or backward. I've been working on both since I started skating 2 years ago, and although they have improved, I still hate how they look. Just practiced today, and despite all the tips that you guys gave me, my crossovers still suck.

Crossovers are supposedly one of the easiest moves in the field. Why am I having such a hard time with them?

[SynchKat]

Everything in skating is hard and just when you get it you will tweak them and be back to square one.  I have been at this sport for 35 years, have competed at a senior national level, coached and I still learn things and get confused during certain exercises in group lessons. 

Believe me when I say one day they will just click and you will get them and wonder what took so long.  Often just having someone different than your regular coach giving you a tip that just makes sense in your mind.  Lots of people find three turns hard and it seems to be what I am always asked for help with.  I will work with someone and usually try a few ways to explain them because often what works and makes total sense to one person is useless advice to another person.  I guess that shows why team teaching is often done at higher levels. 

[jjane45]

Crossovers are supposedly one of the easiest moves in the field.

I'm afraid I can't agree with this. We learn them first, yes, but we also have to improve them during the whole skating career. They are that important and that difficult.

[Clarice]

Doesn't matter if it's forward or backward. I've been working on both since I started skating 2 years ago, and although they have improved, I still hate how they look. Just practiced today, and despite all the tips that you guys gave me, my crossovers still suck.

Crossovers are supposedly one of the easiest moves in the field. Why am I having such a hard time with them?

I would say you're not having such a hard time with them.  Based on what I've seen in your videos, I think you're doing them just fine for a skater at your level.  As you improve over all, your crossovers will also improve.  My suggestion would be to stop obsessing over making them perfect, work on other skills for a while, and then come back to them. (And by "a while", I mean a few months.  During this time, just do crossovers as part of your warmup, then drill whatever new skills you're working on.)

[techskater]

Crossovers, three turns, Mohawks, and simple basic stroking are "lifetime learning" skills in figure skating.  Basically you learn these skills early and you want to get the mechanics right in the early days so your foundation is strong but you will forever be refining and improving them.  If you were expected to do these skills "perfectly" (I use this word lightly because in skating, there is no such thing as perfectly) from the get go, the passing averages from pre-preliminary to senior would be the same instead of pass/retry, 2.5, 2.7, 3.0, 3.2, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 and the passing performance level expectation would be the same.  At an early learning stage, you have to face the facts that you aren't going to skate like Patrick Chan or Carolina Kostner (these two, IMO, are the best current eligible rank skaters in terms of pure skating skills).  There's an ease and flow that comes with hours clocked working on the ice that can't be short cut.  I was reminded of this yesterday by one of our Prebronze skaters when she asked how long I'd been skating and admired the ease with which I skate (in comparison).  My advice?  Stop obsessing about it and just let it happen naturally, it's not like your crossovers are mechanically wrong or that they're below expectation for your level.  One of the things I've found is that obsessing about something in skating NEVER helps improve it, but when you back off on thinking, focus on doing what your coach says, that is when you start to take steps forward. 

[sampaguita]

Thanks everyone. It is reassuring that I'm not the only one who finds crossovers difficult. I know I can't be Patrick Chan, but at least I hope to do back crossovers like some of the best skaters in my rink. I think my obsession comes from the fact that crossovers were the first thing I noticed in figure skating, and the first goal I set my eyes on. I told myself the very first time that I'm going to learn how to do it. I must have overdone goal setting.

As you improve over all, your crossovers will also improve.  My suggestion would be to stop obsessing over making them perfect, work on other skills for a while, and then come back to them. (And by "a while", I mean a few months.  During this time, just do crossovers as part of your warmup, then drill whatever new skills you're working on.)

I thought the same way too before -- just let it be, let time pass by and I'll eventually "get it". Unfortunately, my brain doesn't seem to work that way. It just keeps making my body repeat the same motion over and over again until there's some new input (I was actually amazed at how my backward crossovers looked exactly the same take, after take, after take). I feel like I'm kind of a computer sometimes -- the program just keeps on running the same way unless you change the code.

[techskater]

That's good, though, consistency is a GOOD thing.  Get input from your coach on something to work on.

[Clarice]

I thought the same way too before -- just let it be, let time pass by and I'll eventually "get it". Unfortunately, my brain doesn't seem to work that way. It just keeps making my body repeat the same motion over and over again until there's some new input (I was actually amazed at how my backward crossovers looked exactly the same take, after take, after take). I feel like I'm kind of a computer sometimes -- the program just keeps on running the same way unless you change the code.

Yes, I understand what you're saying.  The way I've "changed the code" for myself was through learning new things.  The work I've done on body positioning for the preliminary figures test, and all the edge work I've done for ice dance has translated into overall better skating skills, and my crossovers (technically progressives for me) have improved as well.  It seems like whenever I've hit a plateau with some skating skill and have left it for awhile to concentrate on something else, when I've come back to it again the improvement has come more easily, I assume because I've improved as a skater.  It's as if I wasn't ready yet to take the skill to the next level.  It seems like these things kind of ratchet themselves up - working on Skill A improves Skill B, and the improvement in Skill B in turn spurs further improvement in Skill A.

[VAsk8r]

One of the things I've found is that obsessing about something in skating NEVER helps improve it, but when you back off on thinking, focus on doing what your coach says, that is when you start to take steps forward.

Nailed it. Nothing more to say.

ETA: I have to confess to once being one of those skaters who did not think much about the basics. Once I passed my pre-bronze, I didn't work on crossovers anymore and didn't think about the need to. The first time I tried to take my bronze test, I got nailed big time on crossovers and basic stroking. I spent a lot of time working on them in the following months. When my coach first began helping me with crossovers, i thought, oh my god, this is so hard, I can't believe I'm having so much trouble with forward crossovers. But everyone's complimented me on how much better my skating looks.

[sarahspins]

Crossovers are supposedly one of the easiest moves in the field. Why am I having such a hard time with them?

I don't know why you would say that - like jjane said, I think they are relatively easy to learn in lower levels, but once you start working on higher level crossovers, they are deceptively simple and surprisingly difficult to do with all of the required elements - speed, power, extension, flow, posture - everything has to work together, and it takes a really really long time to develop that.  Consider the crossovers on our pre-preliminary test (just around the ends of rink with stroking down the long sides - you can pass this test literally just stepping onto those edges, no push or power is really expected) compared to what is expected just one level higher in preliminary (skated forwards each direction and backwards in a figure 8 pattern) - there is considerably more control and skill required (which is one reason I don't think the figure 8 pattern belongs on the adult pre-bronze test myself - it is significantly more difficult than anything else on that test).  Move up again to power stroking (alternating crossovers), then power circles (which isn't so much a circle as a spiraling pattern of crossovers starting from a standstill - it's meant to demonstrate that you can generate power).. and they just get exponentially harder to do at a passing standard as far as USFSA testing is concerned - what's passable at pre-pre won't pass in prelim, and what's passing at prelim won't work for pre-juv... there is a marked improvement expected at every level, and while relatively simple moves, they are very difficult to do at passing standard.

I think part of why you think you are having a hard time with them has to do with your own expectations and standards, and your personal frustration at not feeling like you are "there" yet based on comparing yourself to other skaters.  You might not think  so, but quite honestly your crossovers (forwards and back) are just fine and probably above what is typical for your level (though that is a subjective observation, I do admit)... they are not expected to be on par with elite level skaters, or even skaters at your rink who have all of their single jumps.  I don't say that to discourage you at all, just to be realistic in your expectations of your skating - you are definitely improving every time you skate, and with practice your crossovers will get better, and some day, maybe not soon, but eventually, you'll find yourself skating and not even thinking about your crossovers and you'll realize that you're skating like you always wanted to.  It just won't happen overnight.

[techskater]

It always continues.  As I said, some of it is just logging the hours.

[jjane45]

There is a marked improvement expected at every level, and while relatively simple moves, they are very difficult to do at passing standard.

I think part of why you think you are having a hard time with them has to do with your own expectations and standards, and your personal frustration at not feeling like you are "there" yet based on comparing yourself to other skaters. 

Power circles... eek.

Group coach likes to say while we (adult FS class) may not get Michelle Kwan's triple lutz, we can work toward her back crossovers. BUT, how many elite skaters today have Michelle Kwan's back crossovers?

[Kim to the Max]

I am working on senior moves, have done crossovers on many moves tests both as elements and connecting steps and coach 2 the other day said that the cross over in the senior spiral pattern was the only distracting, not up to par place. It doesn't stop. You must continue to just do them as part of normal skating and they will naturally improve. You need to stop obsessing about the smallest, most minute detail and enjoy skating the the freedom and grace, and just joy it brings. Obsessing is a sure way to become frustrated and in the longer term lose the joy. Things come in time and you cannot go from beginner to elite in a few hours, weeks, or months.

[sampaguita]

Thank you for your replies, everyone. I never thought crossovers were as sarahspins said -- I know that the alpha- and beta-level crossovers don't have to look as good, but I thought you kind of get the basic form at some early level (maybe prelim?). That's why I thought they were some of the "easiest" moves in the field...turns out I'm wrong! :p

I think part of why you think you are having a hard time with them has to do with your own expectations and standards, and your personal frustration at not feeling like you are "there" yet based on comparing yourself to other skaters...

I don't say that to discourage you at all, just to be realistic in your expectations of your skating - you are definitely improving every time you skate, and with practice your crossovers will get better, and some day, maybe not soon, but eventually, you'll find yourself skating and not even thinking about your crossovers and you'll realize that you're skating like you always wanted to.  It just won't happen overnight.

*sigh* yes, I am very guilty of this. Must be one of the problems of falling in love at first sight with Olympic skating. I see the best skaters in our rink, and I know they are very, very far from Worlds level. Seeing myself very, very far from their level -- it is very disappointing. I know that I'll never have triples, given my age and my skating frequency, but somehow, someway, I still hope that there will come a day when I will not be ashamed of my skating skills.

I'm thinking of getting a new coach for skating skills when I get the time. Maybe that's what I need to "change the code".

[davincisop]

Crossovers are hard because your trusting your body weight on an edge and in a position that you aren't used to. The more you practice it the better and easier it will get. I have no problem doing left crossovers, but two years ago if you'd had me do right crossovers I could not get my weight over that edge. I still to an extent have a mental block over that side, but I can do them without a problem. I think right/left handedness plays a part in them as well because I've never had a problem going counter clockwise with anything, clockwise is another story.

[techskater]

Seeing myself very, very far from their level -- it is very disappointing. I know that I'll never have triples, given my age and my skating frequency, but somehow, someway, I still hope that there will come a day when I will not be ashamed of my skating skills.

This is where you need to change your thinking.  You should never be ashamed of your skating skills because it is what i is and you can only improve...Change your mindset

[Query]

What I notice with the kids in the group lessons is that when coaches let their students get away without strong outside edges, they can't learn crossovers right for the next few levels - because it helps a lot for the back foot to be on a strong outside edge. They are often still afraid to shift their weight to a foot that is leaning outside.

But I don't know if you have that issue.

An ice dance coach I had spent a lot of time teaching us to do crossovers. The emphasis was on having that back foot stay on the outside edge throughout, the forward foot stay on the inside edge throughout, pushes from boot legs, facing into the center of the arc, and fully straight leg extensions on the pushes. He had us spend most of the stroke gliding in crossed position.

[AgnesNitt]

I had a coach who made me do them with my arms at my side. You really, really have to have good everything to do that.

Before the knees went kablooey, I could do forward crossovers facing out of the circle with no arms.

Did anyone suggest practicing forward crossovers facing out of the circle? That really helped me.

[techskater]

That's a good one, Agnes!  I also like hands clasped behind the back to pull the shoulders down too

[Mergen Tatara]

I'm trying to move up from basic crossovers to advanced crossovers.  Can someone please break down the steps for me?

Assume that I'm doing anticlockwise backward advanced crossovers.

My understanding is that I'll be using the left inside edge and right outside edge.  I have to push (C-cut?) with right outside edge, while simultaneously slide the left inside edge, in front and across the right foot.  The movement is a bit awkward for me when I try it on the ice. 

I can't C-cut with the right outside edge to generate push.  Or am I not supposed to C-cut at all?  Just push against the ice with the right outside edge? 

I also struggle to slide the left inside edge forward at an awkward inward angle to glide it across the right foot.  Again, is this supposed to be a gliding movement or just push with the inside edge across the ice?

What am I doing wrong?

A step by step breakdown would be most helpful.  Thanks.

[sampaguita]

Hi Mergen! For CCW crossovers, you will be on a right outside edge and a left inside edge. The C-cut should be done with the left inside edge (or both the left inside edge and the right outside edge), and THEN you slide the left inside edge in front and across.

When I first learned this type of crossovers, what helped me was trying to create the number "8". I started with a swizzle (the basic one) and then tried to do the crossover (this produces the . After I was comfortable with swizzles with the number "8", I started doing half-swizzles (where one foot is on the outside edge and the other is on an inside edge) instead of swizzles.

Two years later, I am still not happy with my back crossovers. After the number "8", the next major thing I learned about crossovers was to keep your weight not near the toepick, but almost near the heel. Right now, I am working to improve the underpush, among other things.

[Mergen Tatara]

Thanks sampaguita, for your guidance.  I think the magic word is "backward swizzle", as a starting block.

Yesterday, I passed by a rink and had a top down view.  There was this girl doing advanced backward crossovers around the circle, and I watched her feet closely.  I noticed the "sliding" crossover action by the left inside edge was a "top down" motion, going with the flow of the C-cut    Stupid me  , all along I thought it was "bottom up" motion, trying to slide the left foot forward (like a reverse C-cut).  I was doing it wrong!

One thing I noticed, she was only pumping on 1 foot - the left inside edge.  The right foot stayed on the ice throughout on the outside edge.  Maybe that's the beginner stance, which I should try out and get comfortable first, before attempting to C-cut on the right outside edge.

Is it really easy to C-cut on the outside edge?  I thought because of the nature of our feet, it's more natural to cut with the inside edge.  Doing it on the outside edge feels awkward, albeit I'm a beginner learner.   

[sampaguita]

Mergen: Before doing the advanced crossovers, I suggest you first do backward half-swizzles on a circle. Here, your inside foot is on an inside edge, and the outside foot is on an inside edge. If you want to see feel how it feels like, just try to glide backward on two feet in a circle. That's where you want your edges to be.

Once you have your half-swizzles ready, try to make the number "8". Of course, this isn't the correct technique yet -- the really advanced crossovers are actually crossunders. For a CCW crossover, you may think that the left foot is the one doing the cross, but actually, your right foot is crossing behind your left. Still, trying to do the number "8" will make you comfortable with this crossed position.

One thing I noticed, she was only pumping on 1 foot - the left inside edge.  The right foot stayed on the ice throughout on the outside edge.  Maybe that's the beginner stance, which I should try out and get comfortable first, before attempting to C-cut on the right outside edge.

Is it really easy to C-cut on the outside edge?  I thought because of the nature of our feet, it's more natural to cut with the inside edge.  Doing it on the outside edge feels awkward, albeit I'm a beginner learner.   

Well, for that c-cut, it is actually your inside edge (on the outside foot) that does the push. The foot on the outside edge just glides (if you put that foot on an inside edge, what you get is a swizzle, and you can't go around in a circle). It is possible to just do a 1-foot push on the inside edge (the other foot is NOT on the ice) for advanced crossovers -- but that's difficult.