USFS silver freeskate - jump sequence

[jjane45]

7/7/2012 rulebook describes the required jump sequence as follows:

One jump sequence consisting of one-half or single revolution jumps

From About.com

definition: Jump sequences are similar to figure skating jump combinations, but jump sequences include additional steps, turns, or hops that can be included between the jumps.

Examples: An example of a jump sequence is an Axel, tap toe, Axel. Another example is a split jump, flip, loop, mazurka, waltz jump. The tap toe jump or mazurka jump and the split jump are not considered jumps in a sequence (they are considered hops or connecting moves instead), but keep the series of jumps in the sequence moving.

What are common jump sequences on silver freeskate test?  Would waltz - tap toe - waltz be legitimate? Half loop - salchow?

(ETA: coach has not had anyone at silver for a while, we are primarily ISI)

[TreSk8sAZ]

I've seen the following:

Waltz-half loop-sal
Sal-half loop-sal
Flip-stag-toe (this one was iffy because of the extra turn before the toe)
Loop-half loop-flip

There are many iterations of what it could be. You have to find what works for you, as some people can't do a falling leaf, but can do a half loop, and vice versa.

Yes, a waltz-tap toe-waltz probably would be legitimate. But you would need to work with your coach to see what judges in your area would be expecting. A half loop-sal may not be enough for some judges, who would expect a three jump sequence (even though the rulebook, I don't believe, requires three jumps).

[Skittl1321]

What about salchow-falling leaf- toe loop?  That's a fun one.

Do silver level skaters still use waltz jumps very often?  I know they aren't expected to have axels, but I'd assume they also have enough single jumps to not utilize half jumps the way bronze and lower does.

[jjane45]

Huge waltz jump is a beauty to watch though (not me!), especially compared to a half hearted half loop that loses lots of speed (me!)

of course I have no idea what judges expect. I'd strongly prefer a waltz waltz sequence if the rulebook does not rule it out.

[taka]

Waltz-half loop-sal
Sal-half loop-sal
Flip-stag-toe (this one was iffy because of the extra turn before the toe)
Loop-half loop-flip

Does the half loop count as a listed jump or not for your testing?

May be worth double checking as a half loop in a jump sequence or combination under IJS counts as a listed jump thus making Sal-half loop-sal and Loop-half loop-flip jump combinations not jump sequences.

[jjane45]

taka, that's what I was wondering too... Will anything involving 1/2 loop be called as combo or sequence at this level? It's a combo now in elite levels, but silver is judged under 6.0.

I found this 2006 thread from the archive to be helpful, just not sure if everything is still up to date...

ISU definition (at least back then): "A jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions linked by hops, mazurkas and non-listed jumps immediately following each other, while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee). There can be not more than one (1) revolution on the ice between any hop, mazurka, non-listed jump or jump. There can be no crossovers or stroking during the sequence. A jump sequence, consisting of only one listed jump together with other non-listed jumps is not considered a jump-sequence but will count as a single jump

- Guess my question above concerning "half-loop - salchow" will count as salchow with a special entrance then.

- Does "waltz - tap toe - waltz" qualify? (rulebook says half or single, my guess is yes, even though it's less commonly seen)

- Would "lutz - side tap toe - LFO3-turn -flip" qualify? Three turn is not listed in the definition above.

...

If 1/2 loop is still legitimate, I think I'll also consider toe loop - 1/2 loop - salchow... to work on all of my worst jumps in a sequence!  

[TreSk8sAZ]

Does the half loop count as a listed jump or not for your testing?

May be worth double checking as a half loop in a jump sequence or combination under IJS counts as a listed jump thus making Sal-half loop-sal and Loop-half loop-flip jump combinations not jump sequences.

For testing, I don't believe it does. For example, Junior Free requires a non-listed jump and double. It specifically lists a half loop as a non-listed jump. In most test listings (such as Gold) half loop is routinely listed with things like a stag jump, falling leaf, or split jump. Testing requirements here are often different than competition requirements, and don't appear to always follow ISU rules. I could be wrong, though.

[techskater]

YMMV.  I friend of mine did Lutz-half loop-Salchow and there was much debate over whether that satisfied the requirements by the panel

[jjane45]

YMMV.  I friend of mine did Lutz-half loop-Salchow and there was much debate over whether that satisfied the requirements by the panel

Can we somehow obtain clarification from USFS for this half loop issue? Email? Twitter?

The USFS tests page supposedly has contact information for tests committee but I cannot find it.

[TreSk8sAZ]

Can we somehow obtain  clarification from USFS for this half loop issue? Email? Twitter?

I would talk to your coach or coaches in the area. They would know the local judges and their preferences, and would likely know if it is used and/or passed locally or not.

[techskater]

Exactly.   

[jjane45]

I would talk to your coach or coaches in the area. They would know the local judges and their preferences, and would likely know if it is used and/or passed locally or not.

Sorry I beg to differ  This is not a judgement call like "recognizable sit position", it's a response to a recent rule change and should have a clear cut yes or no answer for all testers out there.

Why include the half loop in jump sequence and leave the skater at the panel's mercy? What about clubs who get different judges all the time?

[techskater]

See if you can get a consensus from a couple judges who have seen several Silver FS tests...

[jjane45]

Thank you techskater and TreSk8sAZ  We'll see what can be done talking to the judges and other coaches.

Sorry in advance if I am asking really really ignorant questions. On a technical level, which parties have "jurisdiction" over calling something a jump combination or jump sequence on USFS testing sessions? Judges only? Test chair? Anyone else?

[blue111moon]

The judges make the call. The test chair has no input on the skating.

[Skittl1321]

See if you can get a consensus from a couple judges who have seen several Silver FS tests...

I'm not certain there have even been several Silver tests nearby...
I can only think of one Silver skater in the area, but more the broad area, not the immediate.
I just wish the rules were just clear, skating seems to involve a lot of guessing about what is expected.

[jjane45]

Thank you blue111moon   I'm still trying to understand how it works.

Since judges see jump sequence all the time on USFS free skate tests, I assume there is a consensus already. Just curious if it's a nationwide consensus.

In a hypothetical scenario, skater and team hears conflicting interpretations from local judges but really does not have a jump sequence without the half loop, can they email the test chair in advance and ask for confirmation from the assigned judges? For peace of mind?

[jjane45]

Half loop aside, I've seen jump - tap toe - LFO 3 turn - salchow or flip jump. Is the 3 turn legitimate?

[Skittl1321]

Yes, you can do a 3-turn in a sequence. For example, waltz jump-salchow, you have to 3-turn from the landing.

Eta. Based on the next post, I guess I am wrong. I was always told that was what differentiated a combo from a sequence, the need to turn, rather than go directly into the next jump.

[jjane45]

Oh no, I did not realize I was reading the "tests book", not the "rulebook"

4101.C

A jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions that may be linked by non-listed jumps and/or hops immediately following each other while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee). There can be no turns, steps, crossovers or stroking during the sequence. Turns are three-turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters and rockers. Steps are toe steps, chassés, mohawks, choctaws, curves with change of edge and cross-rolls.

[jjane45]

4580 Adult Silver
ADULT SILVER WELL-BALANCED FREE SKATE

Additional jump sequences which contain jumps of not more than one revolution (i.e. mazurkas, half-loops, etc.) performed as part of connecting footwork preceding single jumps are permitted

Hopefully this applies to testing too?


4101.B.2

A half-loop when used in combinations/sequences is considered as a listed jump with the value of a single loop for juvenile and above when judged using IJS. For all events judged under the 6.0 system and when pre-juvenile events and below are judged using IJS, the half-loop will continue to be considered as a half revolution jump and will not count against the maximum number of jump elements allowed in the well-balanced program for these levels.

"half revolution jump" should satisfy the requirement of "unlisted jump" right?

[Skittl1321]

so if you can't turn  does that mean that waltzjump falling leaf toe loop can't be done? it requires a three turn.
Baffling since it is part of basic skills freestyle, but why learn it if you can't use it?

[jjane45]

so if you can't turn  does that mean that waltzjump falling leaf toe loop can't be done? it requires a three turn.
Baffling since it is part of basic skills freestyle, but why learn it if you can't use it?

I don't know. Not even sure if I cited from the right source?

[TreSk8sAZ]

so if you can't turn  does that mean that waltzjump falling leaf toe loop can't be done? it requires a three turn.
Baffling since it is part of basic skills freestyle, but why learn it if you can't use it?

That's correct. If you add in a three turn before any jump, it is no longer a sequence. We had that problem choreographing my competition freeskate. We were going to put in a split falling leaf - flip, and that would not count as a sequence (because it comes before the jump). But if I had done a Flip - split falling leaf - flip, it wouldn't have counted as a sequence either because there was a turn, and I would have had too many flips outside of a combo.

[Skittl1321]

So. What the heck is a sequence then? How is it different from a combo?