Pronation and Superfeet

[Orianna2000]

When I ordered my custom Harlick skates, I also ordered a pair of custom black Superfeet. I have flat feet with some pronation, and the skate fitter assured me that the Superfeet would correct the problem. They were vacuum molded to my feet, so they fit exactly. The trouble is, the skate shop forgot to tell Harlick the skates were to be worn with inserts, so they didn't make the boots deep enough at the toes. If I wear the skates without the inserts, they're okay, but the inserts raise my feet up so my big toe strikes the end of the boot in a way that's quite painful.

Harlick is willing to make whatever adjustments are necessary to fix the skates, but I'm wondering--should I have them sand down the inside of the boot or stretch the toe box to make room for the Superfeet inserts? Are the inserts really going to help my pronation? Or am I better off without them? When I tried the skates on, just standing with the guards on, my feet turned inward just the same with the Superfeet as without. But I know standing isn't the same as skating. Does anyone know if these inserts will actually make a difference? Will the skates be more comfortable to wear with the inserts, as opposed to just the thin leather insoles Harlick provides?

[sarahspins]

I would have Harlick fix the boots so that you can use your Superfeet (because that will also enable you to use a custom orthotic if the superfeet don't work out for you, OR you can use a normal athletic/cushioned insole like the poron insules from Harlick or anything else you can buy off the shelf).  I have a feeling you wouldn't like just the sock liners - essentially they wouldn't change at all how the boot feels compared to right now, the only difference would be that the insole would be smooth.

I don't personally think that superfeet alone are enough to "fix" most pronating.. it certainly wouldn't do anything for mine.  I have heel wedges and extra arch supports in my boots to fix my pronation.  I think you were upsold on the superfeet rather than being properly fit with boot modifications from Harlick (which is honestly what should have been done and I don't know why the shop didn't do it).  The wedge correction does cost extra from Harlick, but it is likely cheaper than your superfeet were.  I don't know if it could still be done but I'd talk to Harlick and see what they say.

[Orianna2000]

I asked about getting the orthotics that Harlick offers, but the skate shop said no, Superfeet would do just as well. Now it's too late, because they have to take an impression of your foot and I have no way of getting that done. Perhaps the skate shop didn't have the impression kits, or didn't want to take the time to do that, I don't know.

I also asked about the Poron insoles, but the guy said it adds too much padding between your foot and the boot. You can't "feel the ice" properly, so he strongly recommended against them. At my level, I'm not sure that it would make much difference, but I trusted his judgement.

I'm not sure if the wedges require a foot impression or not. Or if they need adjustments made to the boot to allow them to fit. I'll have to ask the Harlick representative about that.

[Query]

EDITTED

Did you remove the Harlick insoles before inserting the Superfeet? That would make more room.

If that doesn't work, ITA that the best thing is to have Harlick do the job.

But if for any reason they won't, you can stretch the toe box upwards a bit with a ball and ring pliers (bunion stretcher), like this. (That address was an edit - you need one that lets you lock the pressure in place). Because the ball and ring only stretches a small spot, you may need to stretch several spots side-by-side. There are some other tools custom designed for stretching toe boxes - I've just never tried them. You need strong ones - boots are stiffer than thin leather shoes. A good downhill ski shop will have good solid bench tools, as do some skate shops - which work a lot faster than the cheap ball and ring hand tool I just suggested.

But stretching the toe box will make the toe box more flexible - which means the toe box can eventually break down, bend, and pinch your toes. That is particularly likely if you jump. So, letting Harlick do whatever they will do is better!

I agree that vacuum molding Superfeet won't necessarily do the whole job - because it won't completely correct side-to-side slant (wedging), or front-to-back slant (posting). Correct the slant with tape.  

You might try putting few strips of tape under the side of the Superfeet that doesn't press against the top of the boot - that may relieve some of the pressure, by tilting the Superfeet away from the pressure point. Also, try putting a little tape under the heel end - may do a little of the same thing. On the other hand, those may be the exact opposite of what you want the Superfeet to do.  

Companies like Harlick often have to correct for what 3rd party boot fitters do or fail to do - sometimes they make you a whole new pair of boots. That's part of why they charge so much in the first place.

Good luck!

P.S. Another method would work. Throw away the Superfeet. They are too thick and aren't doing the job right. Buy a thin pair of insoles and cut to match the traced outline of the current ones - or cut thin ones out of paper or thin cardboard. Then add tape under your new insoles in places that you need support. Only takes a few minutes. Once you figure out how, you'll probably never buy expensive custom orthotics or mold-able insoles like Superfeet again.

[Sk8tmum]

I also asked about the Poron insoles, but the guy said it adds too much padding between your foot and the boot. You can't "feel the ice" properly, so he strongly recommended against them. At my level, I'm not sure that it would make much difference, but I trusted his judgement.

Are those the ones that Harlick's supplies? If so, then, I can absolutely assure you that you certainly can "feel the ice" properly through them.  Even through a thick pair of sweatsocks. 

Harlick's own internal "fitting" is supposed to be one of the best for pronation; they have a focus on it. There is no way that SuperFeet can correct pronation - if it could then they would be used instead of orthotics for people with foot problems!  Same way that all of those running shoes that "correct pronation" don't work sufficiently for people who truly pronate.

AT this point, I would lodge a formal complaint against USA Skates. I would detail all of the issues you've had with them: misleading information, long delivery times, etc.  This whole thing smells really bad.

[Orianna2000]

Did you remove the Harlick insoles before inserting the Superfeet? That would make more room.

I never got the Harlick insoles. USASkates chose to keep them. The skates arrived with the Superfeet already in place and the Harlick insoles were missing.

A good downhill ski shop will have good solid bench tools, as do some skate shops - which work a lot faster than the cheap ball and ring hand tool I just suggested.

Unfortunately, I live in Tennessee. We have no ski shops. And there isn't a decent skate shop within a three hour drive. 

Are those the ones that Harlick's supplies? If so, then, I can absolutely assure you that you certainly can "feel the ice" properly through them.  Even through a thick pair of sweatsocks. 

Figures. I'm getting really annoyed with USASkates, now. Seems like they outright lied to me on several occasions.

Harlick's own internal "fitting" is supposed to be one of the best for pronation; they have a focus on it.

Can it be added after the fact? Or do the boots have to be built that way from the beginning? I'm wondering if I could send them to Harlick and ask for them to add the pronation fix. But if they need a foot impression, that would be difficult, since there are no freakin' skate shops around here!

I'm really considering just sticking with the Superfeet inserts and doing foot exercises to correct the pronation. My husband watched me skate the other day and he says it looks fairly mild. If I strengthened my ankles and feet, I might be okay without correction. Seriously, this is turning out to be more trouble than it's worth. 

AT this point, I would lodge a formal complaint against USA Skates. I would detail all of the issues you've had with them: misleading information, long delivery times, etc.  This whole thing smells really bad.

Lodge a formal complaint with whom? Harlick? The Better Business Bureau? USASkates themselves? I typically go out of my way to avoid conflict and pointing fingers, so I wouldn't have a clue how to lodge a complaint. What would it achieve? Would they have to refund my skates? They wouldn't even consider the idea of refunding my $90 expedited production fee--they gave me a clever explanation as for why it was okay that my skates took forever, and never mind that my receipt explicitly said 5-6 weeks. (Apparently the receipt was mistaken.)

[Sk8tmum]

Okay, USASkates is a business. Any time I receive poor service from a business, I complain. Generally politely,but effectively. I document everything that has gone wrong; I document everything that I did to resolve it; and I document what they have done in response. I then call and ask for the manager in charge of customer relations.  I go through the issues, and ask for compensation.  If the manager "doesn't have the authority" I go further up the chain until I get somebody who can resolve it.  I don't give up until I get satisfaction. Don't be put off with "we'll call you back" or "we just can't do that sort of thing". They can, and they will. You just have to be persistent.

They took your money, and they are supposed to provide you with a service.  They didn't.  They, based on what you said, have made false and misleading statements, and didn't deliver.  My gut instinct is that a sales guy took advantage of a customer without a lot of background in ordering skates and/or was in over his/her head in fitting skates of your type.  A company in general wants to know if that sort of thing is going on. Even if you don't want to do it for you ... think of the next person who walks and gets this sort of nonsense happen. Do it for them!

If you don't want to confront over the phone, then, call and ask for the name of the VP in charge of customer relations (or a similar title).  Then, write a nice letter with all of the documentation (copies, of course). Send it registered mail ... and if you don't hear back in 2 weeks, call directly.

Even if you don't get a refund, you can generally negotiate something like store credit for stuff.

If you really don't like doing this sort of thing, get a friend/relative to do it for you.  My husband is awful at this type of thing. I'm very good at at it.  We also sometimes tag team: he gets on the phone and is nice, if nothing happens, he passes it to me ... after a bit I give it back, and he simply asks if they want to continue to deal with HIM or if they want me back on the line ... 

[icedancer]

I know you are conflict averse but really you have spent a LOT of money on those skates and they should be right!!!!

Take it from a person who has spent a lot of time dicking around with skates that are just not right - it is NOT WORTH IT!!!!

One thing you could do is just get the regular insert from Harlick and see if that will work for you.  It may be that you don't pronate that much.  Certainly you could find a podiatrist in your area that will tell you just how much you may are may not be pronating??  Why leave it up to guesswork?

[AgnesNitt]

Sorry to blogroll, but if you want to give it a try, and you don't mind throwing $40 at the problem, take a look at my way of fixing my pronation problem and see if it's something you might want to try.

http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2012/03/pronation-nation-inside-boot.html

I'll be perfectly frank. I spent a lot of money on a pair of harlicks and found them unusable even after the boot was rebuilt. I know people love them, but the left boot fit me so badly it made my toenail split. It was beyond painful. And that was after repeated trips to the fitter to have the toebox enlarged. And the rebuild did nothing. Plus they were supposed to be for figures and were stiff enough for doubles.

I decided I'm never getting custom from scratch again.

[Orianna2000]

Well, Harlick is going to make it right. A representative of Harlick just called me and we discussed the problems I'm having with the skates. I explained that I don't have an expert here to tell me what needs to be done, so I haven't a clue what to ask them to do. So we talked about the issues and he gave me his best advice.

Basically, they're going to add wedges to the inside of the skates in the heel area, underneath the Superfeet, to correct a mild pronation. He agreed that Superfeet don't really do that on their own, they just provide arch support, so I need wedges. It sounds similar to what you recommend in your blog post, Agnes. I have no idea if they plan to charge me for adding the wedges, but I would assume so, since they're separate from what I ordered. If they do, I will contact USASkates and ask them to reimburse me for that cost, since they basically didn't give me the choice of having Harlick do their thing, they told me I had to buy the Superfeet. I may write a letter, since I'm much better at writing things out than I am at discussing them on the phone.

I may write a letter to USASkates anyway, just to advise the manager of how I've been treated. It's just, I've got so much going on right now, it's hard to muster the enthusiasm to defend myself against an unscrupulous skate salesman. I'd rather just ignore it and focus on the other things that are screaming for my attention, like my cat's tumor, and the oral surgery I'm having tomorrow. But I'll see what I can do. If I can write, or have my husband call, that could work.

[AgnesNitt]

 I spent a lot of money with fancy schmancy orthotics, etc. My experience is that as an adult you will always do better by making the inside the boot adjustments yourself. You have control. You can make mods at the rink.

I started out with shims, then blade adjustments, and then tried  custom orthotics.  I spent a lot of money on custom orthotics and custom boots for my pronation. I learned the hard way that I needed to do the adjustments myself. It was a total waste of money to have someone do it for me. Now I skate with the blades down the center, no shims, and just a minor adjustment in one boot. And I have bad pronation. So bad you can see it at a glance. I can't even wear high heels.

Sorry, to blogroll again, but I found strengthening my feet and ankles to be the single most important thing I did to 'fix' my pronation problem with my skates.

[jjane45]

Oh thank you for posting it, agnesnitt. I somehow managed to miss that post. Will certainly give it a try!

[Orianna2000]

I'm planning to ask Harlick to go ahead and permanently mount the blades while they have them, since there's no longer anyone here that can do it for me, plus I have no one to tell me whether they actually need adjustments or not. Our skating director wanted to do it while I was standing off-ice, not while skating, so, no offense, but I kind of doubt her proficiency in doing this. I think I'd be better off just having them mounted straight and dealing with the pronation in other ways. Does that sound okay?

Thank you, Agnes, for that link! I will definitely start trying those exercises. The only problem is she uses a few ballet terms that I don't have a clue about. I think I know first position, but I don't know second or fifth. (First is where your feet are together at the heels, pointing outward, right? As straight as possible, kind of like doing a spread eagle on ice, but with the heels touching?) And what is "passe"?

I've also heard that it helps to "write" the alphabet with your foot. Does that help, too?

[Skittl1321]

Abt.org has a great ballet dictionary with videos and pictures.
http://www.abt.org/education/dictionary/index.html

Passe is actually a movement where one leg passes behind the other, but most people (including many dance teachers) use it when they mean retire...so what you really need to know is that it is when you put your toe next to your knee, like a dancer does when s/he turns(spins).  It can be done turned in/knee in front (jazz dancers) or turned out/knee to the side (ballet dancers)
http://www.abt.org/education/dictionary/terms/images/retire.jpeg

[Sk8tmum]

I've also heard that it helps to "write" the alphabet with your foot. Does that help, too?

often used as a balancing drill with youngsters, with the foot held extended and off the ground while balancing on their other leg; the "drawing" is done with the foot off the ground.  They have to focus on remembering and reciting the alphabet, which engages that part of the brain, making it more challenging, while giving them a measurable period of time to hold the drill; the need to form the letters means that they need to alter and adjust their balance; and they also have to use fairly fine control with their feet, and, point their toes too!

[Query]

I would complain about USASkates to Harlick. All the high end figure skate boot makers select very carefully who they sell through. They want nothing to do with sellers and fitters who can't make most customers happy, because it hurts their reputation. Make it clear that USASkates failed, and explain how in detail - over the phone, not just an email. And mention these threads on Skatingforums.com, so they can see just how much your troubles with USASkates are affecting Harlick's business. Talking to Harlick about the customer service problem is absolutely the most important thing, and the one thing USASkates will hate most.

Exercises such as a good sports PT could provide are great - but you shouldn't have to use muscles to compensate for the failings of your boots. I think they should be shaped to handle all your average needs when balanced skating straight on one foot. That's part of what you are paying for in a good custom boot.

If you could afford to fly to Harlick, they could do a lot better job there. But if you can't, you can't.

[Orianna2000]

Thanks for the ballet info, and the alphabet writing instructions. I'll work on doing those.

Query, I'm afraid I can't afford to fly out to California right now. My husband surprised me by planning a proper honeymoon to England/Scotland next month (we never had a honeymoon and it's our 10th anniversary soon), so all our money is tied up in that right now.

What I can do is send Harlick a copy of the letter I send USASkates, just so they're aware of the situation. I can't call, I have a severe phone phobia. But I'm very good at writing, so I can send them a letter detailing everything.

[Sk8tmum]

e-mail?

[Orianna2000]

USASkates doesn't reply to the emails I send them. I've tried on two separate occasions and never got an answer from them. Harlick is much better about it. I could email them a copy of the letter I'm sending USASkates, I suppose.

[hopskipjump]

USA's website is very old - they don't update (or have access I think).  It looks like you can buy online, but the order won't go through.  I don't think they get emails at all for the past couple of years.

[Orianna2000]

That's absolutely unacceptable for a business. You don't have a website that sells things, and then not have the ability to accept the orders people submit. If you can't sell things online, take the website down, for pity's sake! How unprofessional can you get?

[hopskipjump]

I don't think they have access to the site to take it down.