Weak basic skating skills

[jjane45]

Yesterday group lesson coach mentioned "good jumps do not make better skating, but good skating makes better jumps". The topic also came up in a recent thread discussion, there are certain expectations for competing at specific levels.

I am curious what are the top 5 common and glaring signs of "weak skating skills"? For me, I know the number one pulpit is scratchy, toe-picky skating!

Are the skating skills usually considered "private lesson" territory, because skaters without private lessons usually do not have a chance to fix them with group coaches? (when I started privates at ISI FS5, Coach said my skating was clearly not on par with spins/jumps, and I honestly had no idea!)

What about freestyle coach vs. dance coach when it comes to building strong basics? For example, if the goal is to get effortless, effective stroking, which discipline is generally better?

How would one distinguish "basic skating skills" from "style and preference"? (not sure where unpointed toes or sloppy posture would fall)

ETA: How to distinguish "basic skating skills" from "non-basics", however they are defined. I am thinking anything specifically linked to spins and jumps are not "basics"?

[hopskipjump]

These are all things dd has had to work on - I don't know what other skaters need to improve:
toe pushing
losing momentum after jumps
not traveling in spins
speed
making jumps bigger
making it "look" easy
body position with jumps

None of her coaches are dance coaches.

How to distinguish "basic skating skills" from "non-basics", however they are defined. I am thinking anything specifically linked to spins and jumps are not "basics"? 

I am not sure...I really don't think there is a huge difference aside from practice.  One of the first things dd learned were forward crossovers.  She passed her ISI test and a "great job!", but it's not something that was every given a gold star and moved on.  She is still 4.5 years later still working on crossovers.  So while they are a basic skill they aren't ever "finished".  And a crossover the first months of skating look nothing like a crossover now.  It used to take her about 15 to get around the hockey circle, now it's one good push from her edge and she can go forever (almost ).

[ChristyRN]

I've always been a scratchy skater.  It doesn't matter what the toepick looks like--from that tiny one on my first skates to the one on my Competitor blade--I'm going to scratch.  I'm simply amazed when I don't scratch.  I think it stems all the way back to when I started.  I had poor posture then from trying to disguise my big boobs and have never completely learned to stand up straight on ice.

When I do back two foot slaloms, I have to work really hard and focus, but I can do them without scratching.  However, if I lose focus for something as simple as seeing someone out of the corner of my eye, I immediately start scratching.  I'd love to figure out how to fix that on a regular basis so I don't have to think about it.

[AgnesNitt]

three things in my mind make good basic skating skills

1. Strong edges--most people don't like to work on these because they're 'boring'. These are the same people that never progress beyond some basic jumps, and their programs look like crap because of poor transitions and nothing but back crossovers between jumps.
2. Good posture--see number 1. You can't have good edges without good posture. How many of you have a DD or DS, or yourself, and you skate with ape arms when you're not jumping? Anyone? Anyone? How many hunch? How many don't have good extension? shall I go on?
3.  For adults; Deep kneebend. As it has been pointed out to me by several coaches, adults don't have any idea about what deep kneebend really means. FOR Kids: MY guess is poor control over the free leg and free foot.

I'm betting all the other stuff , toepicking, travelling, speed, making it 'look easy' etc. are all due to failure of one or more of those three basic skills.

[jjane45]

Why do some skaters push more effectively than others?

[AgnesNitt]

Why do some skaters push more effectively than others?

Believe it or not I'm just learning this. I don't want to call it a trick, but there's a skill to what my edge coach calls 'leaving the free leg behind.' There's a particular way to hold the free leg and turn the foot when the leg is extended. When I do that, I have scary power. I can't explain it, it has to be taught. Last dance lesson I hit the good spots for a few stroke and my coach exclaimed, "Finally, you GLIDE!"
It's like there isn't any ice down there. Totally amazing. I can't do it consistently though. It's not habitual yet, I still have to think about it.

[VAsk8r]

Strong edges--most people don't like to work on these because they're 'boring'. These are the same people that never progress beyond some basic jumps, and their programs look like crap because of poor transitions and nothing but back crossovers between jumps.

Besides the basic half-moons across the ice, switching from right to left foot, do you have any recommendations for working on edges?

I'm a really toe-picky skater, but I've really been working on it the past couple of months, and I hit it less now. I've also been working on holding my edge after jumps and gliding instead of coming to a dead stop. My flip and loop are still iffy; the others have improved.

[Kim to the Max]

Besides the basic half-moons across the ice, switching from right to left foot, do you have any recommendations for working on edges?

I'm a really toe-picky skater, but I've really been working on it the past couple of months, and I hit it less now. I've also been working on holding my edge after jumps and gliding instead of coming to a dead stop. My flip and loop are still iffy; the others have improved.

There is one, I think it's 1 or 3 cross strokes (so you change feet) and then you hold the outside edge with and extension around a full circle....

[VAsk8r]

There is one, I think it's 1 or 3 cross strokes (so you change feet) and then you hold the outside edge with and extension around a full circle....

Funny you should mention this; I went to a skating clinic a couple of weeks ago, and we did this! A lot...

[blue111moon]

Basi Skating is essentially the skills you learn in group lessons:  edges, stroking, three-turns, forward and backward crossovers, all those dull, picky things that a lot of people (kids and adults) skim through in order to get to the "fun stuff."  The skills that figures used to drill into the body through sheer repetition:  control of edges requires awarenes of body position and turns require the ability to hold parts still while other parts move.  A lot of that has gone the way of the wind and to me (and to a lot of the older judges who grew up with figures) many current skaters look as if they're flinging themselves across the ice and just hoping the blades grab something to keep them upright. 

Dance can help: the first few dances are basicly edges done to a beat.  But for me (and I spent the first 15 years of adult skating doing figures three times a week) there really is no substitute for learning control and lean than in tracing those endless, boring circles.  I actually enjoyed them because they gave me time to think about body position and see the immediate effect of an error in the tracings.  Moves in the Field don't do that.

As for whatpoor basics look like, I think the best example of a high-level skater with poor basics would be Surya Bonaly in her amateur days.  She really had very little concept of edges and stroking and she got through on sheer muscle.  Almost all her skating was done on flats, she pumped her arms and made everything look like WORK.  Contrast her with Michelle Kwan (and if you can find videos of her sister Karen) who made everything look smoooth and easy - and in Karen's case, almost totally silent.  That's having good basics.

[CrossStroke]

Besides the basic half-moons across the ice, switching from right to left foot, do you have any recommendations for working on edges?

I'm a really toe-picky skater, but I've really been working on it the past couple of months, and I hit it less now. I've also been working on holding my edge after jumps and gliding instead of coming to a dead stop. My flip and loop are still iffy; the others have improved.

Couple drills I like:
For backwards crossovers, landing position etc - imagine you have a stiff spring under your heel, and you need to compress it.  On landing position, it can also help to imagine that someone has grabbed your free leg and is pulling you backward, holding on to the blade  

Forwards: gain some speed, push off on to a flat or an edge (like the FO in forward crossovers) - on a bent skating knee, good posture and nice free leg extension - hold it; then rise up - do not change anything other than rising up on skating knee - hold it (you should feel your weight slightly shifting on the blade); bend down again - maintaining everything the same as it was in the "up" position.  Also do this on flats and FO edges with arms clasped behind your back (forces good posture).

[Kim to the Max]

I was thinking about this and one of the differences that I see between the higher level kids with good "basic" skating skills and weak "basic" skating skills is the ability to finish a movement. To finish the edge all the way to the axis, to control their arms and to extend and finish the choreography. I had to help a girl at our rink who just made the leap to a training center and the coaches there changed her long program to music from Patch Adams (slow, flowy, graceful), while all of her previous programs were fast (short program was from Burlesque). What I noticed is that she just isn't clean with her movements. She doesn't extend to her finger tips which also lends itself to sloppy edges and footwork since she doesn't complete her rockers and counters in her footwork or if she does, the edges are not deep.

[turnip]

i don't think there is really a difference between basic skills and polish. I think the polished look is just better basic skills, and i think the standard of "good" will change as you go through the levels. In the learn to skate levels, crossovers will be steppy and scratchy, there will be toe pushing, and edges will be wobbly. Then at midway levels (in the UK say lower NISA level tests), these will be improved but you probably still have to think about it and they won't be perfect. Your weight might still go forward on crossovers, you mgiht not have enough knee bend. but i wouldn't expect to see these errors on an elite skater.

I agree, good basic skills make everything look effortless. The power involved should be sort of hidden until you burst into a jump or spin or lift or something. I've watched an coach i'm friends with skating through field moves (not just demonstrating, actually skating them herself, there's a difference) and she makes it look like something worth watching, even though at the lower levels they're reeeeeally borign! Same with low level dances.

[jjane45]

Oh oh oh of course there are figures. would mastering the beginner figure eight patterns suffice for lower level freestyle? The advanced figures are intimidating...

I'm also guilty of wild arms and free legs, apparent in everything but especially in footwork. Coach prescribed lots of edges, hoping to get them under control. With minimal body awareness, my hope is to get good muscle memories ingrained.

What about inconsistent blade use?

[taka]

I agree, when major things like toe pushing, hunching and staring at the ice are corrected then a lot of improvements in the basics come back to good edge and body control (and added extra knee bend! ). I think that some skaters don't have the degree of edge control that they should for their level. I know my coach feels that the UK field moves tests don't really teach edge (and body) control as well as figures did.

A while ago one of my skating friends asked me who a skater was. (She had not seen her before at our club session). The skater in question was just skating round and round in circles chatting like a lot of others but you could just tell, even with her back to us, that she was a fabulous skater. She had lovely poise, grace, knee bend and extension and a beautiful fluidity over the ice. No wonder as it was Sinead Kerr. I watched her doing a Dutch waltz with one of our dance judges during a dance interval later on... Wow! It is not the most interesting of dances to watch normally but it was just captivating to see someone of that calibre doing a simple dance with such skill, edges and control (and that was with her really holding back so she didn't kill her partner! )

I don't know if a dance coach would be any better at teaching good basics than any other coach. Any coach with good attention to detail could and should be helpful!

My coach is having me spend an inordinate amount of time working on improving my basics (especially getting deeper edges, better knee bend and better extension). I did some figures as a kid so when I returned to skating as an adult my edges weren't too bad (for beginner levels anyway, when I didn't need much speed). Now my ice dancing is improving a little they apparently need a whole lot of work!

Not sure the work on basics ever ends no matter what level someone attains!

[jjane45]

Not sure the work on basics ever ends no matter what level someone attains!

Very true. The question is what percentage of time one spends on the "basics" to bring it on par with "elements" on current skating level.

BTW, do we have a working definition of "basic skating skills"?

[hopskipjump]

I'd say including moves dd spends 1/2 of her time on moves, counters, brackets, choctaws, and footwork  one coach has her doing.  Then jumps and spins. And finally a quick run through of both programs.  Anything sketchy gets the last couple minutes.

[sampaguita]

I've seen this lots of times -- girls who can do jumps but can't do decent crossovers. In some cases, my crossovers are even better than theirs, and I'm not even that good.

I'm sort of the opposite -- I staunchly refuse to learn new stuff until I perfect the old stuff. I'm willing to go down levels if I have to. I believe that I have to deserve going to the FS levels, and I'm not going to move up until I'm happy with my 3-turns.

[momtovanan]

My DD's coach described my daughter the same exact way about 1.5 years ago. I think her skating skills has improved but still not good enough for her coach.

I've seen this lots of times -- girls who can do jumps but can't do decent crossovers. In some cases, my crossovers are even better than theirs, and I'm not even that good.

I'm sort of the opposite -- I staunchly refuse to learn new stuff until I perfect the old stuff. I'm willing to go down levels if I have to. I believe that I have to deserve going to the FS levels, and I'm not going to move up until I'm happy with my 3-turns.

[techskater]

Funny you should mention this; I went to a skating clinic a couple of weeks ago, and we did this! A lot...

Actually, I was given a drill to tighten the edge around the circle all the way length-wise down the ice AND to generate rip (outer, inner/fwd, bkwd).  It's a great drill for pressing down in the back and knees

[lilicedreamer]

I think most problems in skating, like tennis, come from a failure to bend you knees properly.  The legs drive you and they correct your position when you are in basic moves, in the field, and of course, if you are off balance, and not using your knees, anything can happen. That being said, my knee arthritis is one of the things that keeps me off the ice!

[AgnesNitt]

I think most problems in skating, like tennis, come from a failure to bend you knees properly.  The legs drive you and they correct your position when you are in basic moves, in the field, and of course, if you are off balance, and not using your knees, anything can happen. That being said, my knee arthritis is one of the things that keeps me off the ice!

My edge coach says, "Most adult students have no appreciation how deep in the knee you need to be."

For example, standing in the T position, she likes to see the knees bent "so a basketball fits in there."

I'm naturally more of a wiffleball bender.

I'm developing the habit of really deep knees though.

[ls99]

My edge coach says, "Most adult students have no appreciation how deep in the knee you need to be."

For example, standing in the T position, she likes to see the knees bent "so a basketball fits in there."

I'm naturally more of a wiffleball bender.

I'm developing the habit of really deep knees though.

Just curious, where is "there"?

[irenar5]

I would imagine she means between the knees.

[jjane45]

I would imagine she means between the knees.

I doubt I ever saw it happening at real basketball size, coach or students... Nice to think that way though.