Composite Soles

[Doll]

Q that hasn't been covered..

What is a "composition" sole and how would one care for it?


Mod note: Thread split

[sarahspins]

It's a resin-based material, similar in it's care and maintenance to PVC.  Basically it can't rot and doesn't need waterproofing.

[Doll]

Thank you!

[Query]

Maybe you mean "composite" instead of "composition"? In which case, by definition, there is more than one material. E.g., The guy from Edea mentioned that the resin (e.g., Epoxy, Polyester... - which themselves are a mixture of the principle resin with a hardening agent) was used with fiberglass or similar materials in Edea boots. I think Graf uses composite soles too.

They may be a bit of a pain to work with. E.g., Edea uses a completely different type of screw, and drills all the way through the sole. It's possible they also use something vaguely similar to a roller skate style nut on the inside, under the insole - I forget. They advocate using their special kit to fill holes - might have something like epoxy, instead of wood or leather.

One cheap Risport boot I looked at had simple plastic soles, but I'm not sure that is universal to that brand.

Composite materials in the sole (insole, outsole, and the stuff in between - many traditional leather figure skates use a steel layer in between, which technically makes them composite too, but that isn't what is meant) are very common in roller skates, including quads and in-lines, as well as in hockey boots.

[Doll]

Thanks - they are GAM Fantasia skates, for my daughter.  I tried to find info on the GAM site about what kind of sole they use on this skate and couldn't find any info.  Through googling I found a place that said they were composite (you're right, it's composite!).

Honestly, it looks plastic-like to me, so it might be PVC or it might be resin, but from the look of it it doesn't look like it needs any special care.. it's an entry level skate so I'm thinking it is probably made for low/no maintenance.

Also - I have a spray leather waterproofer for regular leather shoes (http://www.sofsole.com/shoecare/waterproofer) - is this ok for my daughter's skates or do I need to order the sno seal stuff?  I don't think I can get it locally, I'd have to order it online.  I have no idea what kind of protection they already have as I bought them used - they have quite a few scratches and gouges as well that I wouldn't mind disguising a little - I don't mind battle scars but they are not my daughter's battle scars but some other kid's

[sarahspins]

You typically don't need to waterproof the uppers on skates unless they are suede (and that is usually done with a spray like what you linked).  Just wipe them off when she's done skating and that should be all they need.  Snow seal is typically used on un-treated leather, like what is usually on the soles of higher level skates.

You can usually buy sno-seal at outdoor stores (like REI, Cabelas, etc), though it may tend to be a seasonal item at some of them. 

[Doll]

ahhh thank you!  It all makes sense now

[Query]

Honestly, it looks plastic-like to me, so it might be PVC or it might be resin

I'm not a chemist, but I think plastics are resins, and most things other than pitch pine that are called "resin" are plastics. But who cares about chemistry? The point is that most of them are waterproof on their own, and don't rot very easily.

So I honestly don't know if you need to waterproof plastic soles. I probably wouldn't bother. Just wipe them dry after use.

Of course, I could be wrong. The person/company that sold you your boots should know.

[angelgirls29]

This may seem like a reeally silly question but what is the sole?
Is it everything that isn't the white bit? 

And I think anything above Risport RF3s have leather soles (I've got RF3s)

[Query]

This may seem like a reeally silly question but what is the sole?

Dictionaries exist! See definition 2. Wikipedia exists too.

A skate boot a sole includes an outsole, to which the mounting plate attaches, an insole (usually removable), which lies directly under your foot or sock, and all that lies in between, which usually includes many layers and materials, such as a steel shank to add stiffness, and compressible layers to absorb impact. Whether it includes the heel depends on who you ask.

The sole is so down to earth. Would someone else like to tackle the "soul" of a skating performance?

[Isk8NYC]

Moving right along very quickly...

A skate's "sole" is the outside bottom of the skate, separate from the "upper" (colored) part.  The "heel" is attached to the sole.  Both the sole and the heel have to be waterproofed regularly since they are exposed to ice and water more often than the upper. 

I use neutral shoe polish on the upper - it helps keep them clean and in good condition.  It doesn't do much for waterproofing, but there is some protection since water beads up, like rain on a waxed car.

Going back to the original question, a "composite" sole can mean a couple of things.  If it's a recreational skate, it usually means the heel and sole are made of some plastic, like PVC.  No maintence required other than cleaning and making sure the sole doesn't leave brown/black streaks on the upper part.

There are also composite soles that mix leather and another material for lightness, durability and lower maintenance.  For example, some manufacturers mix layers of cork with leather to form a lightweight heel.  The heel often looks like it's made of wood, but in reality it's thin, glued layers of leather and/or other materials sandwiched together and cut to a heel shape.

Thinking about it, it's probably less expensive to incorporate cork with layers of stacked leather.  So why do we have to pay more for a less expensive product?  Grrrr.

[Query]

Thinking about it, it's probably less expensive to incorporate cork with layers of stacked leather.  So why do we have to pay more for a less expensive product?

My theory of why light weight boots and blade cost more:

1. Warranty repairs are more likely. E.g., leather and heavy adhesives may be more durable than cork and light weight adhesives.

2. If you push it, lightweight products are harder to make. E.g., vacuum bagged composite boats take more time to make. The lightest adhesives cost more too. Lightweight products involve more experimentation to produce well.

3. Supply and demand. Given a choice, do you want light or heavy? I personally believe this is the major factor in FS boot and blade costs.

BTW, my old Klings appear to have wooden heels, and the layer under the insole appears to be wood. Is that out of date? I wonder if cheap boots still use wood.

[Isk8NYC]

You don't have wooden heels on your Klingbeils.

[Sk8Dreams]

It's stacked leather.

[angelgirls29]

A skate's "sole" is the outside bottom of the skate, separate from the "upper" (colored) part.  The "heel" is attached to the sole.  Both the sole and the heel have to be waterproofed regularly since they are exposed to ice and water more often than the upper. 

Thank you!
I didn't know whether it was just the bottom (where the blades attach) or whether it includes the bit that connects to the boot bit (going to waterproof my boots in the next few days).

[sarahspins]

Klings have always been an all-leather boot. 

[sampaguita]

I know Edea boots all have waterproof soles. I think that they're "composite", at least for the Ice Fly.

I've always wondered why skaters prefer leather, when it's a lot more convenient to have waterproof soles...and the entry level soles are made of plastic/composite soles too. I'm thinking heat molding has something to do with this, but the Riedell 133, which has a plastic/composite(?) sole, is heat moldable! So what's the point of going with leather or other non-waterproof materials?

[AgnesNitt]

I've always wondered why skaters prefer leather, when it's a lot more convenient to have waterproof soles...and the entry level soles are made of plastic/composite soles too. I'm thinking heat molding has something to do with this, but the Riedell 133, which has a plastic/composite(?) sole, is heat moldable! So what's the point of going with leather or other non-waterproof materials?

All leather allows for manufacture of custom heel heights and custom sizes.

Also tradition.

[sampaguita]

 

All leather allows for manufacture of custom heel heights and custom sizes.

Also tradition.

If you're only looking at stock boots, I don't really see the need for leather. Aside from tradition, that is. But I think it's not a very good excuse....why stay with something that (a) you don't need and (b) is obviously inferior to another product (c) that you can get at a comparable price?

[aussieskater]

The big advantage leather has over composite is that it's vastly easier to change a blade mount on a leather sole. Many skate pros won't alter or remount a blade into a pvc or composite sole.

[Sk8tmum]

I know Edea boots all have waterproof soles. I think that they're "composite", at least for the Ice Fly.

I've always wondered why skaters prefer leather, when it's a lot more convenient to have waterproof soles...and the entry level soles are made of plastic/composite soles too. I'm thinking heat molding has something to do with this, but the Riedell 133, which has a plastic/composite(?) sole, is heat moldable! So what's the point of going with leather or other non-waterproof materials?

The all-leather, or in the case of Riedell the cork soles, also have some "shock absorbing" capacity that plastic doesn't. Think of landing on a hard piece of plastic vs. leather, which has some ability to compress; and cork has an even higher ability to absorb shock and is also lighter (not sure how it compares to composite).  In addition, composite hard plastic is more susceptible to fracture due to torque from landing on the blade (as you land on an edge, you do put lateral pressure on the sole, plastic doesn't have any give, whereas leather and cork do).

I know Edea has addressed this with their boots, I'm looking here at the entry-level boots that you generally find in figure skates with factory-mounted blades, etc.

[sampaguita]

The all-leather, or in the case of Riedell the cork soles, also have some "shock absorbing" capacity that plastic doesn't. Think of landing on a hard piece of plastic vs. leather, which has some ability to compress; and cork has an even higher ability to absorb shock and is also lighter (not sure how it compares to composite).  In addition, composite hard plastic is more susceptible to fracture due to torque from landing on the blade (as you land on an edge, you do put lateral pressure on the sole, plastic doesn't have any give, whereas leather and cork do).

I know Edea has addressed this with their boots, I'm looking here at the entry-level boots that you generally find in figure skates with factory-mounted blades, etc.

Aah, interesting! I wonder how Edea addressed this with their boots...all their soles are composite ones.

The big advantage leather has over composite is that it's vastly easier to change a blade mount on a leather sole. Many skate pros won't alter or remount a blade into a pvc or composite sole.

As for remounting blades -- what's the difference between remounting on leather and remounting on plastic/composite?

[Query]

I looked again carefully at my Klings. I guess the heels are indeed probably leather, glued together in layers. If so, it is a hardened leather, as is the sole itself - i.e., infused with an adhesive. Plus, I'm now pretty sure that the layer under the insole is also leather, not wood. Perhaps the Klingbeils must just love working with leather.

I'm not an expert on any of these things. This is all based on what various technicians have said to me, and I might have understood them incorrectly. I've only mounted and re-mounted blades on my own leather boots.

When you re-fill the old screw holes for a remount in leather soled boots, many boot technicians use a pressure fit, pounding in a wooden dowel or rolled up piece of leather. I'm not clear how well that works in a PVC plastic (which BTW is technically a single material, not a composite) sole - one boot technician handled them the same way, but she wasn't very experienced. A composite fiberglass or carbon fiber + adhesive resin (e.g., epoxy, polyester or vinyl-ester) might not have the right physical characteristics for a pressure fit to hold. Last I checked (this could be out of date!) Edea sold a specific kit to fill the old holes, which contains materials which bond to the materials already in the sole. That's a way to patch a composite material kayak or canoe (sometimes you use a little fiber too - not sure if the Edea kit has that). It is safest to use Edea's kit with Edea boots, because not all resin stick to each other.

Edea's boots are mounted differently in the first place too. Whereas you use self-tapping screws to mount blades to leather figure skating boots, Edea boots are (or were?? - call Edea for an update before doing it yourself) mounted more like roller skating boots and some hockey boots are - you drill a hole all the way through, and thread a bolt into a thin nut inside the boot, which rests under the insole. Perhaps the insole could be hollowed out underneath to make space for the bolt, as it often is in roller skates.

Some relatively inexpensive boots (e.g., some rental boots) are originally mounted using rivets instead of screws or bolts and nuts. For a remount, you have to punch or drill out the old rivets. But rinks rarely if ever remount blades just for balance on rental boots.

I'm not sure what you do on boots like some Grafs, which have monolithic plastic or composite soles, hidden under a thin layer that either is leather or is designed to look like it.

Hope that helps. But the best advice is always going to be to call the boot maker. Improvise only if they have no advice other than to buy new boots.

[bobbystonia]

klings are all leather but the insoles are also cork i think

[supra]

I have a pair of Edea Concertos, with the composite sole. It looks to be fiberglass.

My first pair of boots was a pair of Jacksons, I think Artistes, though they didn't say anything other than Jackson. They're an older model boot, with the older style MKIV blade (less aggressive toepick.) Those were PVC soles. The difference between the PVC sole and the Edea's "composite" is quite a lot. The problem I had with Jacksons (and my sister got an older pair of Jacksons with this same problem, too) is the soles are just basically glued on to the leather part of the boot. My sister's boot had no screws, and mine only had 3 in the heel. Within months, I started ripping the leather off the sole, and thanks to being a cheap person, I fixed them myself. I tried initially various glues, and they all did nothing. The problem with PVC is, if you work with PVC pipes, PVC and glue don't really bind very well. PVC pipes need a glue to bind them to eachother, and when that happens, the chemical reaction is more like melting the plastic together. So I fixed the problem with a ton of self tapping screws all over the boots keeping them together, but that looks aesthetically pretty terrible in some spots. But, the bigger issue with PVC is, it's not hard. Once the sole is separate from the boot, the sole is almost as bendy as a normal shoe sole. Leather soles compared to PVC are basically rock. The reason it's used in cheap boots isn't some virtue of the material being awesome, it's just that compared to other plastics, it's impact resistant and isn't gonna ever break in half, compared to something like, say, ABS. One thing, PVC vs composite, composite requires a fair amount of tooling/effort to do, whereas PVC you can just make a mold and pop out a ton of them, and it's rather easy to mold, since it's got a low melting point.

As far as the Edea composite material, I've not skated in them yet, but you can tell it's not like the PVC soles at all. You knock on it and you know it's hard. It's about the same kinda material used for, say, rifle stocks, car valve covers, etc. Not toylike plastic at all. Again I've not skated in them, though, so I can't pass a judgement, and I've never skated in leather (besides a super old pair of floppy Riedell boots for a few minutes) either, so I can't really say one way or the other. One thing Edea promises is that the sole in front is thinner, so you get better ice feel. Again, can't comment, without skating in the boots. I can only say they're hard quality plastic soles. One thing regarding the Edeas vs my cheap Jacksons, they're pretty much the same weight as each other. But the Edeas are a much much stiffer boot, again, I've got no leather boots to really compare, I do think they're lighter from what I remember to leather high end boots I've held, but yeah. I think also, the Concertos aren't super light, either, the Concertos are meant to be a traditional looking and feeling (to a point) skate, whereas the Ice Flys are meant to be sorta Edea's "boot of the future", and really almost an advertisement for Edea, since they look so different from other boots around. Supposedly the Ice Fly and Concertos are just as stiff as one another, but the Concerto is just more traditional.

I think in general Edea boots are pretty much the figure skating boot model of the future, and the traditional leather boots will almost be nonexistent a decade from now. Lots of pro people use Edeas now, and more people will jump on the composite bandwagon. The only reason they haven't is because they have all the tooling for leather boots, and since figure skating is a niche market, there's pretty much just less competition. If you look at any pair of hockey skates, it's pretty much all composite/carbon fiber now, and they're dirt cheap, because it's a bigger more competitive market. Ever wear a pair of speed skates? They're incredible. They're lighter than most shoes. Figure skating in boot design I think has a lot to catch up with... I think to a point, Riedell, Jackson, and the rest have the Chinese to watch out for, the Chinese pretty much have the ability to go into any niche market and destroy the competition. I think right now, the Chinese are more or less cooperating with Riedell and the rest, as I think I've seen a boot that looks identical to the lower end Reidell boots on alibaba.com.